Three Powerful Books

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
User avatar
honorentheos
God
Posts: 11025
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by honorentheos »

The funny part about MG's bias crusade to me is how he demonstrates latching on to a minor, irrelevent detail he then relies on to dismiss people.

Above he latched onto Lemmie's experience with a hurtful believing family member to dismiss her. He latched onto Philo drinking ale as a ready cause to be able to brush him aside. He's used sexual activity, acceptance of pornography, drinking, use of recreational drugs, and open atheism in the past as grounds for categorizing a person.

It's almost comical if it weren't so obviously lacking in self-awareness.

The reason he thinks this "everyone is biased" card works for him is he thinks his bias is towards something good and others are toward something bad and that is where the difference lies. All along ignoring that his definition of good and bad is based on accepting a Mormon worldview. Meanwhile the family member being a dick gets a pass, the LGBT kid feeling ostracized is unfortunate collateral damage that he probably blames on humanism making the kid think they are something he doesn't agree they are, using that to ignore the harm caused by Mormon culture telling a kid they are a sinner and bad person based on who they are. The moral developmental failure caused by confusing following rules with engaging in moral judgement are accepted as free will in action...and on and on and on.

Evidence is a ball getting kicked around in a game according to MG. Like Gadianton pointed out so well, it creates a form of Calvanism without the awareness that it is essentially an argument from privilege.

He's just being silly.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa

User avatar
honorentheos
God
Posts: 11025
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by honorentheos »

One of the arguments from the Greatest Guesser fiasco that made me laugh was around the origin of the paper. The Dales were apparently amused by Dr. Michael Coe claiming to have read the Book of Mormon once and seeing nothing in it that had to do with the Mayan people or their culture. This was brought up in a 1973 Dialog article where Coe opens the article by agreeing any critic of Mormonism ought to have read the book to then weigh in on it.

To the Dales the problem was that Coe lacked the in-depth knowledge of the Book of Mormon required to see Mayan culture in it. Their argument being they had read Coe's writings multiple times, and the Book of Mormon possibly hundreds of times between them both. Had he spent more time reading the Book of Mormon like they had, he'd be able to recognize the Mayan elements in the story as they tell it.

That should automatically strike a normal reader as silly. If one knew someone who was an expert on the writings of William Shakespeare and they, upon reading a recently discovered play told you it lacked the qualities that would suggest it was written by the bard, one would readily recognize that the probability the writing would turn out to be a genuine lost Shakespeare play is meaningfully decreased. If a person who was very much invested in that play being a lost work of his then produced 150 points of evidence they feel demonstrated beyond doubt it was in fact a lost Shakespeare work it may be interesting. But one wouldn't be surprised to see each of those points produced no new actual evidence but rather were interpretations of the writing to attempt to reveal hidden markers. In effect it's claiming the expert should have squinted harder to make absolutely sure there was no way at all someone might be able to imagine the bard wrote the play. It should be clear that the weight of the Shakespearean expert's examination outweighs the musings of the devotee to the fantastical origin story.

The Dales weren't counterbalancing Coe. They are a sideshow in a circus on the side of the road to serious archeological and anthropological study of the Mayan that distracts rather than informs.

Then add onto this all of the other problems with the Book of Mormon being historical that have nothing to do with Coe or the Maya.

Then add onto that the issues around Smith and polygamy, his adultery and lying to Emma, the fake Book of Abraham, the false prophecies and rewriting of the D&C over decades, the creation and manipulation of what we call the first vision, the Nauvoo period and on and on.

Then add to that the issues with the underlying stories in Genesis treated as facts in the Book of Mormon and viewed as literally the writing is Moses in Mormonism.

Then add to that the exposure of the New Testament authorship in it's messy, pseudepigraphic forms.

And so and and so on.

As Lemmie keeps trying to get through MG's dense noggin, the quality of evidence matters. Fallacious beliefs are just that.

ETA:
http://mormonstories.wpengine.com/wp-co ... 2_42-1.pdf

Coe's article in case anyone cares to read it.
Last edited by honorentheos on Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa

mentalgymnast
God
Posts: 8439
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by mentalgymnast »

Lemmie wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:42 pm
mentalgymnast wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:45 pm

...rather than possibly corrupted or infected with false ideology or psychological influences beyond your control. It was recently that you said as much in regards to familial influences that had an impact on the way you view God...or the non-existence of God to be more exact. And that was something you were actually able to articulate.
Lol. No I didn’t. That’s your Midgley-esque pathology asserting itself.
I’m referring to this comment you made:
I have a sibling who blesses his religion for getting him through his hard days, and I will note it does personally seem to do him good, but his version of religion also requires him to righteously shun me and my family, because we don’t practice his exact religion. Whether we are good, decent, honest people is irrelevant to him. God bless religion? Sure, it helps him a lot. At the expense of those his religion asks him to hate. So, no. NOT god bless religion. In my opinion, go to ____ hell, “religion.”
Did I misinterpret you? Or are you simply saying that you have a thing with a God connected with organized religion? If so, that puts you in a position of aligning yourself as a disbeliever in any organized religion, including the LDS church, and the God that is worshipped by its members. So in that sense, you don’t believe in God, or at least the God worshipped within the LDS church.

Or for that matter, any other religious institution.

Is that a bit closer to your position?

Are you willing to admit that your views are conditioned, at least in part, to Mere-exposure effect?

You are human, right? :wink:

Regards,
MG

User avatar
honorentheos
God
Posts: 11025
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by honorentheos »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:23 pm
Or are you simply saying that you have a thing with a God connected with organized religion? If so, that puts you in a position of aligning yourself as a disbeliever in any organized religion, including the LDS church, and the God that is worshipped by its members.
MG - if you actually understood how cognitive biases worked you'd be ashamed of yourself for doing this. It's you latching on an unrelated detail to dismiss Lemmie and sort her into a box where you don't think her opinions carry weight.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa

mentalgymnast
God
Posts: 8439
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by mentalgymnast »

Gadianton wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:32 pm
MG's alleged world is totally moronic. In the world he imagines, everyone is a slave to bias and all bias is equally biased. Since evidence only amounts to support pre-existing bias, how is it that anybody ever changes their mind? If evidence changes opinion, then some opinions could be better than others in principle, and MG couldn't in principle keep saying ad nauseam that so-and-so isn't immune to bias and thus, that person's arguments dismissed because bias is always the driving explanation. For bias to always be the explanation, then evidence can never really mean anything. Thus, a change in opinion is merely a shift in bias for reasons other than evidence. Therefore, it's pointless to ever look for evidence for anything, and the "three powerful books" themselves are pointless to read.
And you’re not immune either.

And no, it’s not pointless to look for evidence of anything.

But it is pointless to think/believe that any one of us are NOT immune to Illusory Truth Effect and Mere-exposure Effect. I mean, that’s science, right? 🙂

Do we really need to stoop to describing other world views as “moronic”?

Even if people change their mind they’re still going to either carry or create biases. Even if at times unknowingly. Conditioned response is powerful.

Regards,
MG

User avatar
honorentheos
God
Posts: 11025
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by honorentheos »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:33 pm
But it is pointless to think/believe that any one of us are NOT immune to Illusory Truth Effect and Mere-exposure Effect.
You are using this to avoid having to weigh the evidence, you Knobbit.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa

Lemmie
God
Posts: 10408
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:25 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by Lemmie »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:23 pm

Did I misinterpret you?
Yes.
honorentheos wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:27 pm

MG - if you actually understood how cognitive biases worked you'd be ashamed of yourself for doing this.
Lol! Can’t argue with that.

mentalgymnast
God
Posts: 8439
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by mentalgymnast »

honorentheos wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:37 pm
mentalgymnast wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:33 pm
But it is pointless to think/believe that any one of us are NOT immune to Illusory Truth Effect and Mere-exposure Effect.
You are using this to avoid having to weigh the evidence, you Knobbit.
I don’t think so. But I do think that it is rather disingenuous to stir all of your grievances into one pot as though by doing that you are increasing the weight of the pot. I’ve seen this over and over again with critics. Each item in the pot needs to ALWAYS be investigated individually to be fair.

Regards,
MG

User avatar
honorentheos
God
Posts: 11025
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by honorentheos »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:49 pm
honorentheos wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:37 pm

You are using this to avoid having to weigh the evidence, you Knobbit.
I don’t think so. But I do think that it is rather disingenuous to stir all of your grievances into one pot as though by doing that you are increasing the weight of the pot. I’ve seen this over and over again with critics. Each item in the pot needs to ALWAYS be investigated individually to be fair.

Regards,
MG
Huh. Remember back in this thread when I suggested you present an example of something you felt critics ignored against the evidence? Do you remember your response?

Here it is if not:
mentalgymnast wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:40 pm
honorentheos wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:55 pm

I'm curious what evidence you feel critics filter out to maintain their arguments rather than accommodating it in their understanding?
Evidence that maintains the possibility of a creator God. To come to an absolutist position as to the non-existence of a creator is rather risky business in my book. Personally, I’m comfortable erring on the side of a personal God.

It’s got to start with God before taking the leap to the restoration of the Gospel.

https://www.closertotruth.com/topics/co ... e-universe

Regards,
MG
It took work to get you to pick one. Then we went through the eventual argument around fine tuning that didn't go so well for you.

Just face the facts, MG. You don't like 'em.
Last edited by honorentheos on Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa

mentalgymnast
God
Posts: 8439
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by mentalgymnast »

Lemmie wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:38 pm
mentalgymnast wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:23 pm

Did I misinterpret you?
Yes.
Then I’ll have to admit, you’re a hard nut to crack. I will have to assume, however, that you are subject...along with the rest of us...to the Illusory Truth Effect and Mere-exposure Effect.

And that you’re a human. And thus prone to error.

Regards,
MG

User avatar
honorentheos
God
Posts: 11025
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by honorentheos »

Also, remember how this thread went so badly for you that you eventually revealed it was all irrelevent as a discussion, but was instead about a war between belief and secularism?

Is that what you mean by each bit of evidence needing to be examined rather than lumped into a pot?

Man you're a piece of work.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa

Lemmie
God
Posts: 10408
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:25 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by Lemmie »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:23 pm
Did I misinterpret you?
Lemmie wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:38 pm
Yes.
mentalgymnast wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:57 pm
Then I’ll have to admit, you’re a hard nut to crack. I will have to assume, however, that you are subject...along with the rest of us...to the Illusory Truth Effect and Mere-exposure Effect.
Lol. You STILL didn’t read your own cut and paste?

User avatar
honorentheos
God
Posts: 11025
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by honorentheos »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:57 pm
Lemmie wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:38 pm

Yes.
Then I’ll have to admit, you’re a hard nut to crack. I will have to assume, however, that you are subject...along with the rest of us...to the Illusory Truth Effect and Mere-exposure Effect.

And that you’re a human. And thus prone to error.

Regards,
MG
The reason MG thinks this "everyone is biased" card works for him is he thinks his bias is towards something good and others are toward something bad and that is where the difference lies. All along ignoring that his definition of good and bad is based on accepting a Mormon worldview. Meanwhile the family member being a dick gets a pass, the LGBT kid feeling ostracized is unfortunate collateral damage that he probably blames on humanism making the kid think they are something he doesn't agree they are, using that to ignore the harm caused by Mormon culture telling a kid they are a sinner and bad person based on who they are. The moral developmental failure caused by confusing following rules with engaging in moral judgement are accepted as free will in action...and on and on and on.

Evidence is a ball getting kicked around in a game according to MG. Like Gadianton pointed out so well, it creates a form of Calvanism without the awareness that it is essentially an argument from privilege.

He's just being silly.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa

User avatar
honorentheos
God
Posts: 11025
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by honorentheos »

MG acting like the greatest cause in the universe is defense of some good against increasing evil is amusing given there is no way for him to examine which side he is on.

Someone tells him he is supporting a bunch of lying poopheads? That person is on the side of bad. Evidence is just there to support ones bias after all. Not to examine of one might be causing harm they wouldn't otherwise perpetuate were they to realize the people claiming to speak for God were a bunch of business men running an organization that started as a con, fled to the west to hide from the world, and became domesticated over the course of the industrialization of the US.

But nope, he is holding onto the possibilty of a creator god and that is what matters.

Could be that the world is complex, there aren't cosmic forces of good and evil, the miracle of consciousness is just that - a miracle without current adequate explanation, and life is not a problem to be solved but a reality to be experienced...and discovered bit by amazing bit.
Last edited by honorentheos on Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa

mentalgymnast
God
Posts: 8439
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by mentalgymnast »

honorentheos wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:54 pm
...we went through the eventual argument around fine tuning that didn't go so well for you.

Just face the facts, MG. You don't like 'em.
It’s not really a matter of whether or not it goes so well for me. I’m just a lay person/novice. I am under no illusion that things will not always go so well for me all of the time. But that doesn’t negate the arguments that are made for fine tuning. If you were one of the ‘go to’ guys on Kuhn’s “Closer To Truth” you would simply be another viewpoint in reference to that subject of inquiry. But you and the others are all predisposed to inherent and/or created biases that are in built to the workings of psychology and the human brain.

No one human is to be completely trusted in having the monopoly on Truth. But we each find ourselves trusting one source over the other.

I’m fine with facts. If that’s what they indeed are. But then there’s the interpretation of those facts. And our own conditioning...and illusions...that impact those interpretations.

Gets a bit messy. 🤪

Regards,
MG

User avatar
honorentheos
God
Posts: 11025
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by honorentheos »

It seems you don't believe facts serve any purpose other than to confirm a bias. If that's wrong, explain how you see evidence working to overcome a bias.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa

mentalgymnast
God
Posts: 8439
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by mentalgymnast »

Lemmie wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:02 pm
mentalgymnast wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:23 pm
Did I misinterpret you?
Lemmie wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:38 pm
Yes.
mentalgymnast wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:57 pm
Then I’ll have to admit, you’re a hard nut to crack. I will have to assume, however, that you are subject...along with the rest of us...to the Illusory Truth Effect and Mere-exposure Effect.
Lol. You STILL didn’t read your own cut and paste?
Ya lost me and it’s not worth the time to figure out when or where or whether it’s really all that important or not. You are a master at misdirection and obfuscation.

And self revelation. Well...not so much. :lol:

Regards,
MG

mentalgymnast
God
Posts: 8439
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by mentalgymnast »

honorentheos wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:18 pm
It seems you don't believe facts serve any purpose other than to confirm a bias. If that's wrong, explain how you see evidence working to overcome a bias.
Hey honor, my playtime here is over for now. We have family coming into visit soon. They’re flying in from Missouri. If and when I see there’s anything more that I can add to the conversation I will return.

Thanks for playing. :smile:

This thread has been going on a while. :rolleyes:

Regards,
MG

Lemmie
God
Posts: 10408
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:25 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by Lemmie »

If that’s what they indeed are. But then there’s the interpretation of those facts. And our own conditioning...and illusions...that impact those interpretations.

Gets a bit messy. 🤪
that's an extremely concerning statement to make. I sense a non-believer struggling with expectations. My empathies.
Last edited by Lemmie on Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Themis
God
Posts: 13241
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by Themis »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:18 pm

Believer...Non Believer. The same psychology is at play. It does work both ways. Mere-exposure effect and Illusory truth effect have taken you to where you’re at.

Regards,
MG
You are really getting desperate. This is just another version of former believers just wanted to disbelief or sin. Members who come across evidence against LDS truth claims and recognize they might be a problem if true are not being influenced by mere exposure. They already have strong bias to believe LDS truth claims which they still have far more exposure to and a preference to believe. They also tend to look for answers from LDS friendly sources to explain how the particular evidence/fact is incorrect or being misinterpreted. What's ironic is apologetic materials shows much of these facts as being true. Gadianton's post really shows how illogical your thinking is.

What's funny is you link to a site claiming 5 pieces of evidence where 3 don't even qualify as evidence for Book of Mormon historicity. The other two are huge stretches many apologists don't agree with. Interesting you cannot come up with one piece of evidence that members can all agree on, where many pieces of evidence against are consistently agreed on by non-believers as well as some believers. It really does not go both ways. It's very one-sided.
42

User avatar
honorentheos
God
Posts: 11025
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm

Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by honorentheos »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:34 pm
honorentheos wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:18 pm
It seems you don't believe facts serve any purpose other than to confirm a bias. If that's wrong, explain how you see evidence working to overcome a bias.
Hey honor, my playtime here is over for now. We have family coming into visit soon. They’re flying in from Missouri. If and when I see there’s anything more that I can add to the conversation I will return.

Thanks for playing. :smile:

This thread has been going on a while. :rolleyes:

Regards,
MG
Whatever. The question is fundamental and direct. Either you don't think evidence matters in determining truth or you should explain how you see evidence working to overcome a bias.

I'm not acknowledging your dodge as anything but an attempt to escape responsibility for the implications of your arguments in this thread.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa

Post Reply