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 Post subject: How much $$ are General Authorities paid?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:52 pm 
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I'm active LDS, a believer, but I have always been bothered by the fact that, since the mid-90's or so, GAs seem to be getting paid a lot of money. Some of the Twelve, for example...some were wealthy, or at least well off, at the time of their calls; others, however, were not. Elders Holland and Packer were educators, for example, but Elder Holland has a very nice up-market vacation home in Hobble Creek (I assume it is his vacation home, it may be it is his primary residence), and I have seen Elder Packer's compound in the south valley. Pres. Monson was an advertising exec for Deseret News at the time of his call...hardly a highly paid position, so I doubt he came to the Twelve with any money, also considering he'd spent three years before as a mission prez in Canada. But today he appears to be a fairly wealthy man. I've heard he has a vacation home in Washington County, and quite a spread of land, home, etc., in Salt Lake.

Where did the money come from for all of this? There is not a single one of the Twelve you would characterize as living modestly, the way, say, Elder McConkie always lived, or Prez Kimball, Joseph Fielding Smith...all those old guys. They really did live modestly, and they never had much money. But not so today. This modest "stipend" we are supposed to believe they receive? How much is this really, how much are they getting paid? And why isn't this info available to us, tithe paying members? When we go into tithing settlement every year, we basically declare how much money we made in the year before. Why doesn't the church disclose to us how much GAs are paid? Are they hiding something? Would it be a cause for embarrassment?

I think the whole City Creek thing, Prez Monson cutting the ribbon while declaring, "1, 2, 3...let's go shopping!"...it has all bothered me and is partly the reason I'm thinking about any of this.


Last edited by kjones on Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How much $$ are General Authorities paid?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:23 pm 
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The recent business week article stated that one of the holding co. Execs is makng about 300k a year. So my guess is the 15 make over 300k a year plus perks.

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 Post subject: Re: How much $$ are General Authorities paid?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:30 pm 
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Simple solution. Don't give money to the Church. Problem solved.

What I do is pay my tithing to a good set of charities with a good track record. They are accountable, almost all of the money goes to the cause, and I feel I'm living tithing as well as any other LDS.


Last edited by Tobin on Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How much $$ are General Authorities paid?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:31 pm 
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kjones wrote:
I'm active LDS, a believer, but I have always been bothered by the fact that, since the mid-90's or so, GAs seem to be getting paid a lot of money. Some of the Twelve, for example...some were wealthy, or at least well off, at the time of their calls; others, however, were not. Elders Holland and Packer were educators, for example, but Elder Holland has a very nice up-market vacation home in Hobble Creek (I assume it is his vacation home, it may be it is his primary residence), and I have seen Elder Packer's compound in the south valley. Pres. Monson was an advertising exec for Deseret News at the time of his call...hardly a highly paid position, so I doubt he came to the Twelve with any money, also considering he'd spent three years before as a mission prez in Canada. But today he appears to be a fairly wealthy man. I've heard he has a vacation home in Washington County, and quite a spread of land, home, etc., in Salt Lake.

Where did the money come from for all of this? There is not a single one of the Twelve you would characterize as living modestly, the way, say, Elder McConkie always lived, or Prez Kimball, Joseph Fielding Smith...all those old guys. They really did live modestly, and they never had much money. But not so today. This modest "stipend" we are supposed to believe they receive? How much is this really, how much are they getting paid? And why isn't this info available to us, tithe paying members? When we go into tithing settlement every year, we basically declare how much money we made in the year before. Why doesn't the church disclose to us how much GAs are paid? Are they hiding something? Would it be a cause for embarrassment?

I think the whole City Creek thing, Prez Monson cutting the ribbon while declaring, "1, 2, 3...let's go shopping!"...it has all bothered me and is partly the reason I'm thinking about any of this.

I believe the Apostles take in about $70k a year via a stipend, or "living expense" - which is money received by the for-profit entities of the church, never from tithing.
However, one must realize that the key to living "well" is not by revenue but by expenses. For example, my revenue is quite generous and i consider myself blessed...and some may consider that i "spend" a lot, but there is effort required in acquiring what i have, and this effort is not by spending but by not spending. Coupons, tax deductions, necessities, etc..all play a more important role than my income.
I would imagine that creative tax strategies, available to anyone, are what enable some of these "perks" you perceive.
As for tithing settlements...they in no way are a disclosure of your yearly income, they are personal and unpublished. I have never been asked if i tithed "10% of income"...it has always been if i was a full tithe payer, and i have always been honest in response...and have never objected to the tax benefit it affords my family.

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 Post subject: Re: How much $$ are General Authorities paid?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:49 pm 
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Good luck with finding anything. Swiss bank officials are very discreet.

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 Post subject: Re: How much $$ are General Authorities paid?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:18 pm 
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Book Sales, It's a comandment to buy any publication published by a member of the 15.

$30.00 x 2,000,000 copies sold.


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 Post subject: Re: How much $$ are General Authorities paid?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:44 am 
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kjones wrote:
I a very hard time believing the amount is around 70k. I personally know a Seventy from Mexico, living in Salt Lake City, who came to the call with no money, and he is getting more than 70k...he has to be, given the home he is living in, the things I see around the house, and things he has inadvertently dropped. (One of my kids pals around with one of his kids, from time to time.) I think the 70k is the way it used to be. My dad was a mission prez and used to boast that "the brethren are paid the same as I'm paid...no more, no less." And back in that day, this was true. But not so today, it seems to me....

glad you are basing your speculation on "he has to be".....perceived value is not the same as actual value.
The home he lives in may be the result of good credit and a favorable loan...or he may have borrowed more than he should....or are you assuming it was paid for in cash?
I know plenty of poor people with great and seemingly expensive homes.
And what things has he "inadvertently dropped"? gold bars?
If you personally know the feller then surely you know the amount he makes...unless you don't know him like that, at which case you don't know him like that and what you are saying here is likely speculation from that green-eyed feller inside you.

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 Post subject: Re: How much $$ are General Authorities paid?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:57 am 
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subgenius wrote:
kjones wrote:
I a very hard time believing the amount is around 70k. I personally know a Seventy from Mexico, living in Salt Lake City, who came to the call with no money, and he is getting more than 70k...he has to be, given the home he is living in, the things I see around the house, and things he has inadvertently dropped. (One of my kids pals around with one of his kids, from time to time.) I think the 70k is the way it used to be. My dad was a mission prez and used to boast that "the brethren are paid the same as I'm paid...no more, no less." And back in that day, this was true. But not so today, it seems to me....

glad you are basing your speculation on "he has to be".....perceived value is not the same as actual value.
The home he lives in may be the result of good credit and a favorable loan...or he may have borrowed more than he should....or are you assuming it was paid for in cash?
I know plenty of poor people with great and seemingly expensive homes.
And what things has he "inadvertently dropped"? gold bars?
If you personally know the feller then surely you know the amount he makes...unless you don't know him like that, at which case you don't know him like that and what you are saying here is likely speculation from that green-eyed feller inside you.


Sub, what are you basing your $70k a year speculation on?

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 Post subject: Re: How much $$ are General Authorities paid?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:07 pm 
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Drifting wrote:
Sub, what are you basing your $70k a year speculation on?


admittedly, other people's testimony, but i have no reason to be too skeptical
HERE

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 Post subject: Re: How much $$ are General Authorities paid?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:09 pm 
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First off....

In my original post I was not talking about Seventies, I'm talking about the 15 at the top. There is not a single one of them who is living on 70k a year. Prez Monson not only owns his very large and luxurious home in Salt Lake City but all of the acreage around it. (I could go on with other examples but I won't.) These men are getting much much more than 70k/year, and this "much much more" is not coming through their relatively modest Deseret Book sales. Where is it coming from?

I don't think such a question needs to mark me as an apostate, or one who is "tearing down the brethren", or "not supporting the brethren". Joseph Smith said, "It is the nature and disposition of all men, when they get a little authority...." Note the "all men" bit. In other words you might say that virtually all men, if they have opportunity, will abuse the power and authority they are given.

Is this happening now? I don't know. But keeping it all secret, not disclosing it...this doesn't inspire confidence. I wouldn't even be able to ask the question on the MDDB, I'd be banned before anybody had even read the post. "Brother Jones, we don't question the brethren," I was solemnly told when I brought the question once up in priesthood meeting 5-6 years ago. I am a businessman and I do OK, I guess. But I have never been wealthy, and I struggle every month to make my tithing payments, and then at the end of the year I usually also come up with a lump to sum to make things square. But then one day a few months later (after I'd asked the question in priesthood mtg.) when I was driven to a family function by a member of the 2nd Quorum of the 70 in a new top-of-the-line, all-the-bells-and-whistles Toyota Avalon provided and paid for by the church...well, it left a bad taste in my mouth. This particular Seventy, when I asked about the car, noted to me how the Avalon was at least as good as 500 series BMW. (And yes, I really had this experience, and yes, I know the Seventy. He is, in fact, a family member...but not one I could ask, "How much are you getting paid?")

Sorry, subgenius, but all of this bothers me, and it has nothing to do with the "green eyed monster".

P.S. - There are going to be people who think I made this story up. I didn't.


Last edited by kjones on Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How much $$ are General Authorities paid?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:11 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
Drifting wrote:
Sub, what are you basing your $70k a year speculation on?


admittedly, other people's testimony, but i have no reason to be too skeptical
HERE


It would be more believable were the 'other people' more credible.
The only thing I remember reading is when Hinckley said (I'm going from memory) that GA's pay was commensurate with similar grade positions in industry. That would suggest to me, a stipend well in excess of $70k.

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"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: How much $$ are General Authorities paid?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:21 pm 
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Drifting wrote:
It would be more believable were the 'other people' more credible.
The only thing I remember reading is when Hinckley said (I'm going from memory) that GA's pay was commensurate with similar grade positions in industry. That would suggest to me, a stipend well in excess of $70k.

well, if it "suggests" that to you then it surely must be true!....or false...either is possible given the circumstance.
you have no evidence to suggest that any of those people are not credible on this topic

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 Post subject: Re: How much $$ are General Authorities paid?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:46 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
Drifting wrote:
It would be more believable were the 'other people' more credible.
The only thing I remember reading is when Hinckley said (I'm going from memory) that GA's pay was commensurate with similar grade positions in industry. That would suggest to me, a stipend well in excess of $70k.

well, if it "suggests" that to you then it surely must be true!....or false...either is possible given the circumstance.
you have no evidence to suggest that any of those people are not credible on this topic


I think Hinckley is marginally a more credible source, don't you?

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Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: How much $$ are General Authorities paid?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:49 pm 
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I don't know that we teach that Hinkley?

The one exec in the BW article was paid
290k a year. Which is where I based my 300k a year figure on. I reckon if they pay the execs that, then it stands to reason they pay the 15 that.

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 Post subject: Re: How much $$ are General Authorities paid?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:12 pm 
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I was told by someone, who said he knew firsthand, that members of the 1st prez are paid 700k/year and each member of the Twelve gets 400k/year. This, to me, is a credible estimate.

But still, we are left to wonder, since the info is not disclosed. So who really knows? The men themselves, the auditors, and the person writing out the checks.

700k/year is a fair salary for men who manage a corporation as large as the church, and 400k/year is also fair for the Twelve who also manage the corporate behemoth.

Which makes me think that it would be better to separate the entities, i.e., separate the management of the business interests of the church from the management and direction of the ministerial interests. However, in a church that teaches there is no distinction between the temporal and the spiritual, maybe this is not easy to do.

However...I think, for example, that Prez Monson is a consummate businessman, manager, business visionary; he knows how to schmooze and all of his best friends, the people he hangs out with when he has a choice--these are all very rich guys like John Huntsman, Sr., or the NuSkin founders; but I cannot think of him as a prophet, seer and a revelator. On the other hand, I can think of Elders Packer and Holland as spiritual leaders, but I can't really think of them as managers of a 50 billion corporation.

It would seem better to me to separate the two entities, pay the guys who run the biz end of things comparable salaries, or maybe a little less than they'd get in the world; and the spiritual leaders--well, pay them a living allowance, maybe what CES people are paid.


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 Post subject: Re: How much $$ are General Authorities paid?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:18 pm 
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kjones wrote:
I was told by someone, who said he knew firsthand, that members of the 1st prez are paid 700k/year and each member of the Twelve gets 400k/year. This, to me, is a credible estimate.

But still, we are left to wonder, since the info is not disclosed. So who really knows? The men themselves, the auditors, and the person writing out the checks.

700k/year is a fair salary for men who manage a corporation as large as the church, and 400k/year is also fair for the Twelve who also manage the corporate behemoth.

Which makes me think that it would be better to separate the entities, i.e., separate the management of the business interests of the church from the management and direction of the ministerial interests. However, in a church that teaches there is no distinction between the temporal and the spiritual, maybe this is not easy to do.

However...I think, for example, that Prez Monson is a consummate businessman, manager, business visionary; he knows how to schmooze and all of his best friends, the people he hangs out with when he has a choice--these are all very rich guys like John Huntsman, Sr., or the NuSkin founders; but I cannot think of him as a prophet, seer and a revelator. On the other hand, I can think of Elders Packer and Holland as spiritual leaders, but I can't really think of them as managers of a 50 billion corporation.

It would seem better to me to separate the two entities, pay the guys who run the biz end of things comparable salaries, or maybe a little less than they'd get in the world; and the spiritual leaders--well, pay them a living allowance, maybe what CES people are paid.


Can you imagine the meeting?

Okay we're going to need 6 of you to be business leaders at 400k a year and 6 of you to be religious leaders at 35k a year.
Hands up for volunteers for the theology jobs...
*cough...shuffle...ahem...tumbleweed...*

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Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: How much $$ are General Authorities paid?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:59 pm 
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I've decided I don't care what they get paid and now I'm sorry made this post. But then, maybe getting it off my chest is what has made it possible for me now not to care about it. If there are abuses (and I don't know whether there are or aren't), I'll let God worry about it....


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 Post subject: Re: How much $$ are General Authorities paid?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:02 pm 
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Then do us a favor. Contribute your tithes to a charity that gives a reporting of where they go..... Or conversely just make a bale of the cash and light it on fire.

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 Post subject: Re: How much $$ are General Authorities paid?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:04 pm 
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kjones wrote:
I've decided I don't care what they get paid and now I'm sorry made this post. But then, maybe getting it off my chest is what has made it possible for me now not to care about it. If there are abuses (and I don't know whether there are or aren't), I'll let God worry about it....


Keep that in mind next time you are cleaning the Chapel for free alongside an out of work janitor...

Abdicating responsibility to God for the consequences of your choices is a little bit cowardly in my opinion. If you pay your tithing then get behind where the money goes, support the mall etc. If you don't like how the Church uses funds, stop giving it money.

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“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: How much $$ are General Authorities paid?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:48 am 
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kjones wrote:
I've decided I don't care what they get paid and now I'm sorry made this post. But then, maybe getting it off my chest is what has made it possible for me now not to care about it. If there are abuses (and I don't know whether there are or aren't), I'll let God worry about it....


Hello kjones,

I agree with your decision. The purpose of tithing is to build and maintain there churches and temples. What if the 70's do pocket some of the money why does it matter? Suppose that if they didn't they would be able to build another temple somewhere. If you have a temple to go to for all of the various ceremonies in order to obtain your future exaltation why worry about them having one less temple.

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 Post subject: Re: How much $$ are General Authorities paid?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:12 pm 
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what has become evident is that many posters here have little knowledge, and less experience, with actual business administration or simple finance. Additionally there seems to be little understanding of how a church is administered.
That being said, it is apparent that of these same posters there are those that either disregard or do not comprehend the notion of tithing and therefore either abstain from it or convince themselves that they do tithe when actually they fall short of accomplishing it for the obvious selfish concerns. These critics of the church, of its leaders and of its members are simple minded at worst....gnat strainers at best.

Though theses armchair "critics" pray and pray for it to be true, there is no reason, nor evidence, that leads a reasonable person to believe that any tithing monies are used to supplement the GA's living stipend either directly or indirectly.

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