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 Post subject: New Intel: The Decline of Pres. Monson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:37 am 
B.H. Roberts Chair of Mopologetic Studies
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I heard this morning from one of my informants--this is the person who supposedly has a rather deep connection to the Church hierarchy in Salt Lake City. Compared with the intel I receive concerning the Maxwell Institute, this is much harder to verify, so as always, take it with a shaker-full of salt.

In any case, I was told that Pres. Monson has entered a period of decline due to Alzheimer's Disease. Allegedly, he has begun to do "embarrassing" things in public venues, and he is now surrounded by Church-appointed handlers virtually 24-7. The interesting thing is that the Brethren have (again, allegedly) divided into competing factions. One of these is led by Elder Uchtdorf, who basically wants to take over in much the same way that Pres. Hinckley did after Pres. Benson became incapacitated.

The other faction is, of course, led by Elder Packer. Interestingly, according to my informant, Elder Packer wants to stage a kind of "coup" whereby the Brethren would vote to give Pres. Monson "emeritus" status, thus allowing Packer to ascend to the throne in spite of the fact that Monson is still alive. My informant added in the detail that Pres. Packer's patriarchal blessing said that he would one day hold the office of Church President, so he may view this as his chance to fulfill this "divine calling."

Again: I want to stress that, as of right now, this pretty much has the status of a "believable rumor." As with a lot of the intel I am given, its truthfulness (or falseness) will be borne out in the coming weeks and months. So treat this with skepticism.

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 Post subject: Re: New Intel: The Decline of Pres. Monson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:48 am 
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 Post subject: Re: New Intel: The Decline of Pres. Monson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:51 am 
Sunbeam
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
I heard this morning from one of my informants--this is the person who supposedly has a rather deep connection to the Church hierarchy in Salt Lake City. Compared with the intel I receive concerning the Maxwell Institute, this is much harder to verify, so as always, take it with a shaker-full of salt.

In any case, I was told that Pres. Monson has entered a period of decline due to Alzheimer's Disease. Allegedly, he has begun to do "embarrassing" things in public venues, and he is now surrounded by Church-appointed handlers virtually 24-7. The interesting thing is that the Brethren have (again, allegedly) divided into competing factions. One of these is led by Elder Uchtdorf, who basically wants to take over in much the same way that Pres. Hinckley did after Pres. Benson became incapacitated.

The other faction is, of course, led by Elder Packer. Interestingly, according to my informant, Elder Packer wants to stage a kind of "coup" whereby the Brethren would vote to give Pres. Monson "emeritus" status, thus allowing Packer to ascend to the throne in spite of the fact that Monson is still alive. My informant added in the detail that Pres. Packer's patriarchal blessing said that he would one day hold the office of Church President, so he may view this as his chance to fulfill this "divine calling."

Again: I want to stress that, as of right now, this pretty much has the status of a "believable rumor." As with a lot of the intel I am given, its truthfulness (or falseness) will be borne out in the coming weeks and months. So treat this with skepticism.

Wow, this is pretty weird. I don't know if you remember how in the last General Conference, Monson was nowhere to be seen on Sunday Morning when the Pres. of the Church traditionally gives the opening address. Then he suddenly appeared and went to the podium to give his talk. I forget exactly what he said when he got there, but it was really off the wall. Inappropriate almost. I have some experience dealing with Alzheimer's patients, and I turned to my mother (I was at parent's house for conference) and said "That almost seemed like something an early Alzheimer's patient would do."

I think this "intel" sounds really believable. It makes me wonder what they will do, because as you may know, it just gets worse and worse. Sometimes it can progress very quickly, and people with the disease can really become hard to handle at times.

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 Post subject: Re: New Intel: The Decline of Pres. Monson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:53 am 
God
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An emeritus system makes sense to avoid such situations, but Packer is in terrible shape and doesn't look to have much time left on earth.

Don't know if your source is legit, but it wouldn't surprise me.

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 Post subject: Re: New Intel: The Decline of Pres. Monson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:53 am 
I've also heard a couple of faithful TBMs speculate that he had Alzheimer's.


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 Post subject: Re: New Intel: The Decline of Pres. Monson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:54 am 
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The health rumor doesn't surprise me. He has seemed a little "weird" (for lack of a better word) during recent GCs. Was it the April general conference when he walked up to the podium, waved and said "Hi"? It got a lot of laughs. He did other goofy things like that, hamming it up for the crowd. I thought maybe he was trying to make his mark as the comedian prophet.

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 Post subject: Re: New Intel: The Decline of Pres. Monson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:57 am 
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DarkHelmet wrote:
The health rumor doesn't surprise me. He has seemed a little "weird" (for lack of a better word) during recent GCs. Was it the April general conference when he walked up to the podium, waved and said "Hi"? It got a lot of laughs. He did other goofy things like that, hamming it up for the crowd. I thought maybe he was trying to make his mark as the comedian prophet.

Exactly. I've also thought he has done lots of off the wall things, almost like he had forgotten where he was and what he was doing, and trying to be funny was his way of dealing with the fact that he was confused.

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 Post subject: Re: New Intel: The Decline of Pres. Monson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:57 am 
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Bob Loblaw wrote:
An emeritus system makes sense to avoid such situations, but Packer is in terrible shape and doesn't look to have much time left on earth.

Don't know if your source is legit, but it wouldn't surprise me.

I wouldn't be surprised if this had been considered every time a church president begins to decline mentally or physically.

Probably the only thing stopping them from instituting a system that makes a lot more sense than what they've always done is that they can't agree on who authority should transition to.


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 Post subject: Re: New Intel: The Decline of Pres. Monson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:58 am 
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Well, if Packer does become president really soon, that may be good news for the Obama campaign. Bad news for the LDS Church, but potentially great news for Obama, especially if Packer were to stage a deeply reactionary General Conference in October.

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 Post subject: Re: New Intel: The Decline of Pres. Monson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:03 am 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:

In any case, I was told that Pres. Monson has entered a period of decline due to Alzheimer's Disease. Allegedly, he has begun to do "embarrassing" things in public venues, and he is now surrounded by Church-appointed handlers virtually 24-7. The interesting thing is that the Brethren have (again, allegedly) divided into competing factions. One of these is led by Elder Uchtdorf, who basically wants to take over in much the same way that Pres. Hinckley did after Pres. Benson became incapacitated.


I can say that I have had various people who either were in attendance, have friends in leadership, or Church security; who have said that President Monson has dementia. This has been as early as the Provo Tabernacle meeting a year or two ago and the Hawaii trip. The fact that his dementia is progressing is not unusual and should be expected. Embarrassing events occurred on both occasions.

The Church actually faced such a situation with Pres. Benson. I know one of his treating physicians who told me after his death that when he treated him in 1990 or so, he had no idea where he was or who the people were that surrounded him. Mike Quinn has said that when Romney had the possibility of becoming Prez., the leaders were panicking. This would have been the first time they had a full blown dementia patient taking office. There was supposed to have been serious discussion about jumping over him and putting Hunter in as Prez. Which ultimately happen. Obviously God is watching over his Church. :smile:


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 Post subject: Re: New Intel: The Decline of Pres. Monson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:04 am 
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In the past when a prophet has started to decline, it's been mostly physical. So it's been easy to just keep him out of the public eye with the excuse that he's not physically able to be there. But Alzheimer's patients, at first, remain physically able to get around, and they only show signs of the mental confusion from time to time. But like I said, it gets worse. And there is typically a real frustration that starts to build in the patient as he begins to realize that he's not thinking right, and then he can start "acting out" as a result of that frustration. They can do really nutty things and say really nutty things. Like a person who never in their life used foul language suddenly pops off with a string of really vulgar profanities towards a spouse or family member, or even a stranger.

I can see why they might want to try to deal with this issue sooner rather than later, in order to prevent the PR disaster of Monson, say at a temple dedication, breaking loose with a kind of Sarah Silverman monologue in the middle of the dedicatory prayer.

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 Post subject: Re: New Intel: The Decline of Pres. Monson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:06 am 
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 Post subject: Re: New Intel: The Decline of Pres. Monson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:07 am 
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Emeritus prophet?!

This is a pretty big deal. 1000x bigger than the Maxwell business. We shall wait and see.

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 Post subject: Re: New Intel: The Decline of Pres. Monson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:08 am 
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My grandfather was in mental decline for a number of years, and it was sad for all of us in his family. I feel sorry for the Monson family.

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 Post subject: Re: New Intel: The Decline of Pres. Monson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:13 am 
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Prophet/apostle emeritus is a good idea. They need to think of something in an age where life expectancy is getting longer and longer. How would emeritus status be decided? Would be classic to see TSM and Packer get emeritus status together. So close!


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 Post subject: Re: New Intel: The Decline of Pres. Monson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:17 am 
God

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Why would God allow His one Prophet on earth end up doing embarrassing things in public to the point he has to be hoiked out of office one way or another?

On another point, it at least explains the Arthur Patton and Widow and Cookie tales...

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 Post subject: Re: New Intel: The Decline of Pres. Monson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:18 am 
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robuchan wrote:
Prophet/apostle emeritus is a good idea. They need to think of something in an age where life expectancy is getting longer and longer. How would emeritus status be decided? Would be classic to see TSM and Packer get emeritus status together. So close!


All you'd have to do is what they already did with the Seventy: emeritus at 70. The new prophet would be the senior apostle, like it is today.

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 Post subject: Re: New Intel: The Decline of Pres. Monson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:19 am 
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Monsons replacement is already decided, so no need to pray about it.
Just refer to the corporations articles of association - which states its the longest serving Apostle.

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 Post subject: Re: New Intel: The Decline of Pres. Monson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:26 am 
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The Packer thing would really be hard, I think, for faithful Mormons to accept. From a succession standpoint, it's true that Packer is next in line. But as long as the President is alive, there is still a First Presidency, and the two counselors have the "keys" of authority to act for the First Presidency whenever the President is incapacitated or absent or whatever. The church was led for decades without an active, capable President. Hinckley basically ran the church when Kimball, Benson, and Hunter were not able to function fully. If Monson wanted Packer to be the guy to run things when Monson got sick, Monson would have made Packer First Counselor. He didn't. There is a long history and tradition at work here, and I think it would be very troubling to faithful members who know that history if Packer tried to throw that all away and usurp authority.

That said, there is a way they could do it that might not be seen as usurpation. If Monson is mentally incompetent, the 14 could vote together to make him an emeritus and then dissolve the First Presidency, and then Packer could lead the church as President of the Twelve. After Joseph Smith died, Brigham Young led the church for years as President f the Twelve. The key to to all is who holds the office of Corporation Sole. That person right now is Monson. He literally owns everything the church owns. I wonder what it would take to get Monson removed from that position. As I understand it, corporations sole do not have bylaws, so I am not actually sure what governs, from a legal standpoint, removal of a person from the office of Corporation Sole and replacing him with another. Making Monson "emeritus" with a vote by the Big 14 is probably not gonna do the trick. They can call him whatever they want, but the important thing is who is in that office. The law doesn't recognize "priesthood keys" or "revelation." The true power in the LDS church is in the vast wealth owned and controlled by the Corporation Sole. It actually makes me wonder who minds the store when that guy is debilitated. I know there were allegations that Hinckley simply "forged" Benson's signature on stuff back when he was running things. But I don't think the church has ever been really forthcoming about all that stuff. Maybe Daymon Smith has written or talked about this (I haven't read his book but heard part of a MS podcast with him).

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 Post subject: Re: New Intel: The Decline of Pres. Monson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:30 am 
God

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What's the difference?

I don't wish illness on the old guy but Monson has presided over a period of nothing except for members leaving in droves and the worlds biggest, costliest, upmarket Jesus Mall.

Let's hope the new guy has a bit more about him.

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Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: New Intel: The Decline of Pres. Monson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:32 am 
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Does anyone know if Benson ever made a similar power grab n the early 80s? I can't imagine that he would have had the chutzpah. Maybe Hinckley was just too powerful to take on, and Packer sees Uchtdorf as a lightweight.

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