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 Post subject: The Five Points of Fellowship...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:51 am 
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Why was this removed from the Temple ceremony?

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 Post subject: Re: The Five Points of Fellowship...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:18 am 
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jon wrote:
Why was this removed from the Temple ceremony?


A more appropriate comment would be "why was it ever in the ceremony to begin with?". It has absolutely nothing to do with religion. Even FAIR admits that. It was only in there because the Masons had it in their ceremony.

It was removed because people, especially women were very uncomfortable with the touching going on with another man that they were forced to do. There was a survey given to 3,400 people about the temple in the late 1980s and this undoubtedly came up - and miracle of miracles, it and some other disturbing s*** was removed soon thereafter.


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 Post subject: Re: The Five Points of Fellowship...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:17 am 
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Do they still hold birthday parties for the prophet in the temples?

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 Post subject: Re: The Five Points of Fellowship...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:45 am 
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sock puppet wrote:
Do they still hold birthday parties for the prophet in the temples?

I've never heard of this before?
Never happened in the 8 years I was an ordinance worker.


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 Post subject: Re: The Five Points of Fellowship...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:49 am 
sock puppet wrote:
Do they still hold birthday parties for the prophet in the temples?


Where and when did you hear of this happening?


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 Post subject: Re: The Five Points of Fellowship...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:59 am 
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Not in the temple, but here is an interesting story about Monson and his Bday:

Quote:
It was President Monson's birthday and the quorums of the twelve and the seventy were going to surprise Elder Monson with a cake in a meeting to be held in his honor that afternoon. We didn't receive the cake order until the morning of the event. The order came down to an employee by the name of Beth who was the pie and cake baker. Beth was not exactly what you would classify as a stellar true believing member of the church. Years of church employment and personal problems had left her somewhat disgruntled and jaded against the church and she resented and resisted the unwritten order of things.

On this particular day, she had several other cake orders to fill and she was falling behind. I could hear her resentful grumbling from the Pantry kitchen, and her resolution that went something like, "Well, Elder Monson is just going to have to wait for his precious cake, because I have other orders that have been on the books for months to do." So, she saved the cake for last. It was a beautiful 3-layer chocolate cake which came fresh out of the oven with minutes to spare before the Administration Building employees were to pick it up. Normally a cake such as that would need a few hours of cooling time before it could be frosted, but alas, there simply wasn't time. She slathered on the chocolate frosting in a fit of panic, piped out some happy birthday message in frosting on the top, and threw it in a box. It was on its way and soon forgotten.

The next morning there was an "emergency staff meeting" called by Karen Hildegard, the Manager. You could tell she had been crying. She, in what must have been the few moments of composure she had been capable of mustering that whole morning, proceeded to sternly recount the fate of the cake after it left the premises. In the time which elapsed between its departure from our kitchen to when it was opened for President Monson's delight, the entire 3-layer cake had slid off into a virtual glob of melted chocolate frosting. Apparently, no one had opened the box at the Administration Building for a preliminary inspection.

Karen continued to passionately re-enforce the policy that whenever we receive an order for a General Authority, we are to drop everything and attend to it, and to do it better than we would any other order. Her voice was several orders of magnitude in emotion above anything any of us had ever heard before and she explained it in words similar to this: "I just had a meeting with the First Presidency in my office. Do any of you have any idea what it's like to have the entire First Presidency in your office yelling at you? I know none of you want to know what that is like, and I will *not* be in that position again."


http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_thom ... 1257402064

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 Post subject: Re: The Five Points of Fellowship...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:17 am 
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Infymus wrote:
Not in the temple, but here is an interesting story about Monson and his Bday:

Quote:
It was President Monson's birthday and the quorums of the twelve and the seventy were going to surprise Elder Monson with a cake in a meeting to be held in his honor that afternoon. We didn't receive the cake order until the morning of the event. The order came down to an employee by the name of Beth who was the pie and cake baker. Beth was not exactly what you would classify as a stellar true believing member of the church. Years of church employment and personal problems had left her somewhat disgruntled and jaded against the church and she resented and resisted the unwritten order of things.

On this particular day, she had several other cake orders to fill and she was falling behind. I could hear her resentful grumbling from the Pantry kitchen, and her resolution that went something like, "Well, Elder Monson is just going to have to wait for his precious cake, because I have other orders that have been on the books for months to do." So, she saved the cake for last. It was a beautiful 3-layer chocolate cake which came fresh out of the oven with minutes to spare before the Administration Building employees were to pick it up. Normally a cake such as that would need a few hours of cooling time before it could be frosted, but alas, there simply wasn't time. She slathered on the chocolate frosting in a fit of panic, piped out some happy birthday message in frosting on the top, and threw it in a box. It was on its way and soon forgotten.

The next morning there was an "emergency staff meeting" called by Karen Hildegard, the Manager. You could tell she had been crying. She, in what must have been the few moments of composure she had been capable of mustering that whole morning, proceeded to sternly recount the fate of the cake after it left the premises. In the time which elapsed between its departure from our kitchen to when it was opened for President Monson's delight, the entire 3-layer cake had slid off into a virtual glob of melted chocolate frosting. Apparently, no one had opened the box at the Administration Building for a preliminary inspection.

Karen continued to passionately re-enforce the policy that whenever we receive an order for a General Authority, we are to drop everything and attend to it, and to do it better than we would any other order. Her voice was several orders of magnitude in emotion above anything any of us had ever heard before and she explained it in words similar to this: "I just had a meeting with the First Presidency in my office. Do any of you have any idea what it's like to have the entire First Presidency in your office yelling at you? I know none of you want to know what that is like, and I will *not* be in that position again."


http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_thom ... 1257402064


When the Prophet's cake is ordered, all other baking is done.

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 Post subject: Re: The Five Points of Fellowship...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:41 am 
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jon wrote:
Why was this removed from the Temple ceremony?

It was spiritual junk DNA.

I wonder why believing members don't scratch their head and think: "If God restored the truth, and it was part of the temple "truth" for so many years, why would it be removed?"

The next thought might be: "well, if it was superfluous enough to be removed, why was it included in the temple ceremony in the first place?"

I can't help but think that most reasonable and intelligent Mormon believers might then wonder: "Where did the temple ceremony originate from if it has so many superfluous and unnecessary parts that can be removed like an annoying wart on the butt; Joseph Smith or God?"

So, when I was disemboweling myself in pantomime in the temple pre-1990, was I just doing it for laughs?


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 Post subject: Re: The Five Points of Fellowship...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:53 am 
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liz3564 wrote:
sock puppet wrote:
Do they still hold birthday parties for the prophet in the temples?


Where and when did you hear of this happening?

Right here on MDB, March 2010! Any more questions I can help you with?

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 Post subject: Re: The Five Points of Fellowship...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:39 pm 
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Tchild wrote:
So, when I was disemboweling myself in pantomime in the temple pre-1990, was I just doing it for laughs?

You are such a square. It's not the laughs, it's the lulz. Come on, get with the program!

Image

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 Post subject: Re: The Five Points of Fellowship...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:58 pm 
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Jonah wrote:
When the Prophet's cake is ordered, all other baking is done.


Okay, that was funny.

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 Post subject: Re: The Five Points of Fellowship...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:07 pm 
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LDS truthseeker wrote:
A more appropriate comment would be "why was it ever in the ceremony to begin with?".

It was there in the ceremony because it taught in a very potent way several moral and theological lessons.
jon wrote:
Why was this removed from the Temple ceremony?

Because those that removed it probably didn't themselves understand what Joseph Smith was trying to convey; and because its matter of conveyance made many, especially women, feel uncomfortable.


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 Post subject: Re: The Five Points of Fellowship...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:13 pm 
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quote="George Miller"]
LDS truthseeker wrote:
A more appropriate comment would be "why was it ever in the ceremony to begin with?".

"It was there in the ceremony because it taught in a very potent way several moral and theological lessons."


What theological lessons are taught doing the hokey pokey at the veil?

jon wrote:
Why was this removed from the Temple ceremony?

"Because those that removed it probably didn't themselves understand what Joseph Smith was trying to convey; and because its matter of conveyance made many, especially women, feel uncomfortable." [/quote]


More likely people didn't like doing it.


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 Post subject: Re: The Five Points of Fellowship...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:18 pm 
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George Miller wrote:
LDS truthseeker wrote:
A more appropriate comment would be "why was it ever in the ceremony to begin with?".

It was there in the ceremony because it taught in a very potent way several moral and theological lessons.


The practice was meaningful to some guy that lived in a small town in the mid-west 200 years ago. This is ambiguous. Why would the Lord specify an authoritative code of instructions in a cloud of ambiguity? There are an infinite number of practices that have different levels of meaning to people. According to this logic, I should be able to go to my furnace room and tap the duct work with my son's light saber 15 times to conjure the Spirit of the Lord and make a covenant with him.

I know - the answer is "well, all that matters is the work is done using authority from God." Our actions used to convey the covenant are ambiguous but the line of command is extremely well defined. Does this not cause at least a little concern to anyone?

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 Post subject: Re: The Five Points of Fellowship...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:25 pm 
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Because too many of the dirty old men pulled a JoetheCoxman move and turned it into the Six points of Fellowship when they had the women in their grasp at the veil.

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 Post subject: Re: The Five Points of Fellowship...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:32 pm 
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LDS truthseeker wrote:
What theological lessons are taught doing the hokey pokey at the veil?


I suspect that the lessons can only be learned by those who do not call it the "hokey pokey". Probably a prerequisite.

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 Post subject: Re: The Five Points of Fellowship...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:37 pm 
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The Nehor wrote:
LDS truthseeker wrote:
What theological lessons are taught doing the hokey pokey at the veil?


I suspect that the lessons can only be learned by those who do not call it the "hokey pokey". Probably a prerequisite.

STFU Nehor, there's certainly no chance you ever whispered to the man behind the veil at the five points of fellowship. I did. As far as deep moral and theological lessons, I would love to know what deep moral and theological lessons I learned while pretending to slit my throat, cut my heart out, and disembowel myself, if I were to reveal various secret handshakes and signs.

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 Post subject: Re: The Five Points of Fellowship...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:40 pm 
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LDS truthseeker wrote:
More likely people didn't like doing it.

I have to say I didn't love it and I can certainly see why women wouldn't love it as well. My guess is that a desire de-Mason the endowment as much as possible w/o taking out key elements was one reason the 5-points were cut....along with the fact the ladies didn't love that level of contact with a stranger in order to proceed through the veil.

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 Post subject: Re: The Five Points of Fellowship...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:42 pm 
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Sethbag wrote:
STFU Nehor, there's certainly no chance you ever whispered to the man behind the veil at the five points of fellowship.


So? I know the procedure.

Quote:
I did.


To quote Matt Foley, motivational speaker: "La-deee freakin da!"

Quote:
As far as deep moral and theological lessons, I would love to know what deep moral and theological lessons I learned while pretending to slit my throat, cut my heart out, and disembowel myself, if I were to reveal various secret handshakes and signs.


You missed that too? So sad.

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 Post subject: Re: The Five Points of Fellowship...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:46 pm 
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Nehi, you and the others too young to have gone through when these things were part of The Temple Ceremony as given to Joseph Smith from THE LORD don't know what you are writing about.

Those of us who went through then and were workers then know what was part of the ceremony. We know it was supposedly there from The Lord and not to be tampered with.

Then later we find out what we went through was changed a number of times from Joe the coxmans day.

What in hell is going on? Truth changed? The ceremonies that were the same from Adam to Solomon's Temple to every dispensation to today--- except they now aren't the same?

And some think they were removed because they were not understood?

I have a whole barnyard full of Shinola available if you would like to come over and shine your shoes boys.

Pay Lay Ale was not a beer, but we can't expect you boys to understand that, cane we?

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 Post subject: Re: The Five Points of Fellowship...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:59 pm 
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Joseph wrote:
Nehi, you and the others too young to have gone through when these things were part of The Temple Ceremony as given to Joseph Smith from THE LORD don't know what you are writing about.


I can say with perfect assurance that I know more about it then you. :)

Quote:
Those of us who went through then and were workers then know what was part of the ceremony. We know it was supposedly there from The Lord and not to be tampered with.


Why is it that all ex-Mormons were so unbelievably dogmatic about everything? There may be a pattern there.

Quote:
Then later we find out what we went through was changed a number of times from Joe the coxmans day.


Who is this Joe and what does he have to do with this?

Quote:
What in hell is going on? Truth changed? The ceremonies that were the same from Adam to Solomon's Temple to every dispensation to today--- except they now aren't the same?


You believed that they hadn't changed since the days of Adam? At all?

Bwahaahahahahahahahahaahhaha

Okay, thanks for that. I needed a good laugh. No wonder you're gone now. Brigham Young talked about them changing. They certainly weren't given the same way in the past. Do you really think when Adam received his equivalent endowment they talked about Moses? That everything was exactly the same? Wow, you were so naïve when you were a member it's almost cute.

Quote:
And some think they were removed because they were not understood?


I don't. Though many never understand the Temple.

Quote:
I have a whole barnyard full of Shinola available if you would like to come over and shine your shoes boys.

Pay Lay Ale was not a beer, but we can't expect you boys to understand that, cane we?


No, I know about that too. I made it a hobby to study the changes and asked those who went through before.

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