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 Post subject: Re: Hamblin Accuses Jenkins of Anti-Mormon Prejudice
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:06 pm 
B.H. Roberts Chair of Mopologetic Studies
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Gadianton wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:
My prediction? None of them will answer it.


I agree. Not a single one from the Mormon Interpreter crowd dare answer this question.

Here is the question:

Quote:
Do you believe in the story of the Tower of Babel as a literal historical event?


It won't be answered. I guarantee it.


It's nonetheless a bit interesting to speculate: do they believe in the Tower of Babel? If you had demonstrated your commitment to the Mopologetic cause--i.e., you paid up your memberships for FAIR and Mormon Interpreter, you attended the FAIR Conference multiple times and did your due diligence in kissing all the right butts, etc.--and you managed to pull aside Hamblin or Midgley or Gee and ask them about this, what sort of answer do you think you'd get?

My guess is that in that situation, they'd admit that they don't believe in the Tower of Babel, and that their views are essentially the same as Jenkins's.

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 Post subject: Re: Hamblin Accuses Jenkins of Anti-Mormon Prejudice
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:16 pm 
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Jenkins latest

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/anxiousben ... pologists/

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 Post subject: Re: Hamblin Accuses Jenkins of Anti-Mormon Prejudice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:06 am 
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Jenkins adds a note

Quote:
ADDENDUM

I don’t know if I have to make this point yet again, but can I stress once more that what I am criticizing here is “Ancient Book of Mormon apologists,” rather than Mormon advocates or apologists as such. I say nothing whatever about LDS church beliefs, practices, or theology, partly because I simply don’t know enough to comment usefully, and what I do know about ordinary LDS believers tends to be favorable and sympathetic. I see their everyday faith with deep respect, and acknowledge their zeal to spread Christ’s teaching as they understand it.

You might regard this as a silly and hyper-sensitive comment, but I have more than once refused to go see the musical of Book of Mormon, on the grounds that (as I understand it) it mocks or trivializes religious practice. I am not condemning anything sight unseen. I don’t object to the musical being made, nor to anyone else going to see it, and I have no objection to people making religious satire of any kind, against any religion whatever. I’m told that much of the musical is an insider joke, and is even sympathetic. All fair enough. In terms of my own religious freedom, though, I don’t want to patronize that activity personally. I don’t want that mockery inflicted on my faith, nor do I wish it on others.

I am on completely different territory when I see one particular form of activism, namely the “Ancient Book of Mormon” folks who make literal historical claims that are simply unsupportable. I am attacking their history and their pseudo-scholarship, not their religion. Could I make that more clear?


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 Post subject: Re: Hamblin Accuses Jenkins of Anti-Mormon Prejudice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:47 am 
God

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Suppose hambone and donut boy say yes we believe in the literal tower of babel as written in genesis-
so help me understand what damage that does and is that less or more damage than if they say no. how would a biblical literalist non LDS answer the babel question.

and please do not provide your answer in 'tongues" even if you have that gift :biggrin: :biggrin:

just waggin'

k


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 Post subject: Re: Hamblin Accuses Jenkins of Anti-Mormon Prejudice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:19 pm 
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I am willing to bet a plurality of apologists of group that Hamblin and Peterson come from believe in a literal tower of Babel with a literal confounding of languages that occurred on a localized level. This is sufficient for what the Book of Mormon narrative requires. They probably see themselves as more enlightened as those who believe in the Tower of Babel as an origin of language diversity, but this is also profoundly fundamentalist belief.

Believing they think of it as a fictional myth really misunderstands just how conservative their beliefs are. Their attempts to put on airs of scholarly sophistication may have fooled you.


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 Post subject: Re: Hamblin Accuses Jenkins of Anti-Mormon Prejudice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:21 pm 
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I applaud Jenkins' clarification. He risked coming across as a Christian anti-Mormn in recent posts. I know he is not, but I could also see Mopologists finding room in his posts to make the case that he is. The last thing I wanted was to see that happen. One has to be very careful not to give the Mopologists any room to paint one as an anti-Mormon. Heaven knows it is one of their favorite and perhaps most effective strategies.

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 Post subject: Re: Hamblin Accuses Jenkins of Anti-Mormon Prejudice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:26 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
I am willing to bet a plurality of apologists of group that Hamblin and Peterson come from believe in a literal tower of Babel with a literal confounding of languages that occurred on a localized level. This is sufficient for what the Book of Mormon narrative requires. They probably see themselves as more enlightened as those who believe in the Tower of Babel as an origin of language diversity, but this is also profoundly fundamentalist belief.

Believing they think of it as a fictional myth really misunderstands just how conservative their beliefs are. Their attempts to put on airs of scholarly sophistication may have fooled you.


Gee almost certainly takes it to be literal history. I know he argued for the historicity of the Exodus. Anyone who would do that at a professional academic gathering would likely say the same about the Tower of Babel narrative.

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 Post subject: Re: Hamblin Accuses Jenkins of Anti-Mormon Prejudice
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:03 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Gee almost certainly takes it to be literal history. I know he argued for the historicity of the Exodus. Anyone who would do that at a professional academic gathering would likely say the same about the Tower of Babel narrative.

I thought believing in the Exodus, or at least a less over-the-top version of the Exodus, was on a different level from belief in the Tower of Babel. James Hoffmeier's Israel in Egypt, which tries to bring the evidence in line with the Exodus account as much as possible, may be on the outer edges of academic respectability, but it's not completely beyond the bounds.


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 Post subject: Re: Hamblin Accuses Jenkins of Anti-Mormon Prejudice
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:48 am 
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Kishkumen wrote:
I applaud Jenkins' clarification. He risked coming across as a Christian anti-Mormn in recent posts. I know he is not, but I could also see Mopologists finding room in his posts to make the case that he is. The last thing I wanted was to see that happen. One has to be very careful not to give the Mopologists any room to paint one as an anti-Mormon. Heaven knows it is one of their favorite and perhaps most effective strategies.


It's their only strategy on this topic. And their desperation to attack Jenkins on a personal basis rather than address his one simple question is starting to seep out into their prevarications.

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 Post subject: Re: Hamblin Accuses Jenkins of Anti-Mormon Prejudice
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:55 pm 
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During the past few days, I devoted much of my free time to reading through this thread. It was tough to do because there are a lot of lengthy posts.

Let me first thank everyone who relayed the blow-by-blow postings between the two parties. It was helpful to not have to chase links to other sites in order to actually read the exchanges. I also enjoyed the running commentary. Given the nature of this site and the individuals involved, of course there was some mocking of Hamblin and Co. Given their presentations, I'm hardly surprised. For the most part, however, the crowd responded with thoughtful, relevant criticisms of Hamblin. You essentially crowd-sourced an effective rebuttal to the Mopologists' claims. It was interesting and, the inner nerd in me admits, actually rather exciting.

Ultimately, I must confess I was absolutely overwhelmed by Hamblin's... I don't even know how to describe it. How do you describe someone who, though he has absolutely zero position for his evidence, nevertheless tries to convince the world (and / or himself) that he has a case? The man "knows what right looks like" but persists in watering down the standards on this personal issue. I would surely hope that if one of his students displayed such awful academic behavior in the classroom, Hamblin would fail him or her on the spot (especially a graduate or Ph.D. student). But then again, if Hamblin would do so, that would make the man a terrible hypocrite. The "rules" apply in the real world as much as in the classroom, Bill! Indeed, the classroom exists to equip people to do this work in the real world, so he's doing his students a disservice by not applying what he teaches. How disappointing.

In short, the Mopologists were awful. Simply awful. I just wanted to share my observations.

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 Post subject: Re: Hamblin Accuses Jenkins of Anti-Mormon Prejudice
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:17 pm 
B.H. Roberts Chair of Mopologetic Studies
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It seems at this point that Hamblin is dead in the water. Perhaps it's safe to say that either (a) Jenkins can declare victory, or (b) there is a furious exchange underway on L-Skinny as the Mopologists plot out a multi-essay response to be published on Mormon Interpreter. Given that Mopologetic support has gone into complete and utter retreat, option (a) appears to be the correct answer for the time being.

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 Post subject: Re: Hamblin Accuses Jenkins of Anti-Mormon Prejudice
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:43 pm 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
Quote:
So here is my question, and it is very straightforward, requiring only a yes or no answer: Do you believe in the story of the Tower of Babel as a literal historical event?

My own answer, as I have said, is No. See? No equivocation.

If you do believe its literal historicity, how do you reconcile that with all the archaeological evidence of pre-Babel languages and civilizations?

If you don’t believe it, does that mean that you see at least parts of the Book of Mormon as symbolic, metaphorical and/or mythical, without a basis in literal historical reality?

In that case, are other faithful LDS believers free to believe that other sections of the Book of Mormon are symbolic, metaphorical and/or mythical, as opposed to literally historical? Which sections are those? Might it for example include all claims about early settlement in the New World?

Or are such matters of faith and belief entirely left to the conscience and discretion of individual LDS believers?

One request. Please don’t give me smoke and mirrors about Babel being a localized event, as LDS apologists do when trying to explain the Flood. It’s clear that this Tower of Babel story assumes the Genesis story as backdrop, and that is explicitly “the language of all the earth.”

I look forward to a specific answer.

...

My prediction? None of them will answer it.

So...what happened? Did anyone answer the Tower of Babel question?

You read the whole thread, and just when things start getting interesting, it just... ends?


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 Post subject: Re: Hamblin Accuses Jenkins of Anti-Mormon Prejudice
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:57 pm 
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The thread did, but we can discuss the implications further here if you so desire. I believe that could be helpful actually.

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 Post subject: Re: Hamblin Accuses Jenkins of Anti-Mormon Prejudice
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:22 pm 
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Ahh good times. A great example of what happens when pseudo scholarship meets actual scholarship.

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 Post subject: Re: Hamblin Accuses Jenkins of Anti-Mormon Prejudice
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:37 pm 
B.H. Roberts Chair of Mopologetic Studies
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Dr Moore wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:
My prediction? None of them will answer it.

So...what happened? Did anyone answer the Tower of Babel question?

You read the whole thread, and just when things start getting interesting, it just... ends?

I don't recall anyone ever answering it. The Mopologists know better than to even bother to try. And, if one of the Chapel Mormons had attempted to answer it in earnest, they would have been banned.

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 Post subject: Re: Hamblin Accuses Jenkins of Anti-Mormon Prejudice
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:30 pm 
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Quote:
I don't recall anyone ever answering it. The Mopologists know better than to even bother to try. And, if one of the Chapel Mormons had attempted to answer it in earnest, they would have been banned.

Wouldn't it be fascinating if a General Authority went incognito onto Interpreter's comments section and actually posted the real doctrine of the church and got banned?!

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Is Midgely serious? Peterson's blog is a patty-cake, surface only, all too frequently plagiarized bit of ephemeral nonsense. Why would anyone suppose avatars must be real? Midgley has lost his tiny little mind. Maybe he can go over to never-neverland and harass Peter Pan for not really knowing how to fly. -Lemmie-


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