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 Post subject: New Essay: Book of Mormon And DNA Studies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:26 pm 
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I just saw this posted on NOM but haven't had a chance to read through it yet:

https://www.LDS.org/topics/book-of-morm ... s?lang=eng


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 Post subject: Re: New Essay: Book of Mormon And DNA Studies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:41 pm 
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Madison54 wrote:
I just saw this posted on NOM but haven't had a chance to read through it yet:

https://www.LDS.org/topics/book-of-morm ... s?lang=eng



So the limited geography theory is now LDS Doctrine?

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 Post subject: Re: New Essay: Book of Mormon And DNA Studies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:44 pm 
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Thanks, Prez Newsroom, for teaching me genetics!

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 Post subject: Re: New Essay: Book of Mormon And DNA Studies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:46 pm 
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The Book of Mormon provides little direct information about cultural contact between the peoples it describes and others who may have lived nearby. Consequently, most early Latter-day Saints assumed that Near Easterners or West Asians like Jared, Lehi, Mulek, and their companions were the first or the largest or even the only groups to settle the Americas.


WTF ...Most early Latter-day Saints assumed???? Ahhh... they freaking assumed this because that is what the freaking book claimed...

Quote:
2 Nephi 1:9 Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall keep his commandments they shall be blessed upon the face of this land, and there shall be none to molest them, nor to take away the land of their inheritance; and they shall dwell safely forever.

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Last edited by Craig Paxton on Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New Essay: Book of Mormon And DNA Studies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:55 pm 
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Craig, that pretty much blows a whole in the rest of the article doesn't it?


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 Post subject: Re: New Essay: Book of Mormon And DNA Studies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:59 pm 
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Don't forget verse 8!

2 Nephi 1:8 wrote:
And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.

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 Post subject: Re: New Essay: Book of Mormon And DNA Studies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:01 pm 
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Craig Paxton wrote:
Quote:
The Book of Mormon provides little direct information about cultural contact between the peoples it describes and others who may have lived nearby. Consequently, most early Latter-day Saints assumed that Near Easterners or West Asians like Jared, Lehi, Mulek, and their companions were the first or the largest or even the only groups to settle the Americas.


Ahhh...Most early Latter-day Saints assumed... Ahhh... they freaking assumed this because that is what the freaking book claimed...

Quote:
2 Nephi 1:9 Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall keep his commandments they shall be blessed upon the face of this land, and there shall be none to molest them, nor to take away the land of their inheritance; and they shall dwell safely forever.



"... that they may possess this land unto themselves..."

Could "this land" mean just the land that Team Lehi occupied and that the rest of the continent were occupied by non-selectees?

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 Post subject: Re: New Essay: Book of Mormon And DNA Studies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:01 pm 
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Madison54 wrote:
I just saw this posted on NOM but haven't had a chance to read through it yet:

https://www.LDS.org/topics/book-of-morm ... s?lang=eng


Thanks Madison! I'm trying to get through it, but it's hard with all my involuntary eye rolling.
I hope Simon Southerton has a chance to respond. I'm very much looking forward to that.

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 Post subject: Re: New Essay: Book of Mormon And DNA Studies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:04 pm 
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I can't wait for Simon Southerton to respond to this new essay -- he's gonna tear it apart.

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 Post subject: Re: New Essay: Book of Mormon And DNA Studies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:09 pm 
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Rollo Tomasi wrote:
I can't wait for Simon Southerton to respond to this new essay -- he's gonna tear it apart.



Are you sure? I mean they had marbles in a jar.....

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 Post subject: Re: New Essay: Book of Mormon And DNA Studies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:37 pm 
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See lilliputian Nephite theory ala Rev. Dr. Kishkumen Ph.D. MD DBA esquire.

Good stuff. The geography was so limited it would fit into a square foot of your backyard.

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 Post subject: Re: New Essay: Book of Mormon And DNA Studies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:50 pm 
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Rollo Tomasi wrote:
I can't wait for Simon Southerton to respond to this new essay -- he's gonna tear it apart.

This is exactly what I was thinking as I was trying to get through it.
I started rolling my eyes at "Although the primary purpose of the Book of Mormon is more spiritual than historical..."

I have to admit that I only know the basics regarding BofM and DNA issues, so I hope that Simon Southerton will do an analysis using layman's terms. Still, I can't wait to hear what he has to say about this essay.


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 Post subject: Re: New Essay: Book of Mormon And DNA Studies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:05 pm 
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son of Ishmael wrote:
Rollo Tomasi wrote:
I can't wait for Simon Southerton to respond to this new essay -- he's gonna tear it apart.



Are you sure? I mean they had marbles in a jar.....


Excellent point...they did have marbles...I may have to reconsider my conclusions...

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 Post subject: Re: New Essay: Book of Mormon And DNA Studies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:17 pm 
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I saw this over at reddit, and thought I'd share:

BYUagnostic wrote:
Nothing is known about the DNA of Lehi? What about...


1 Nephi 5:14 And it came to pass that my father, Lehi, also found upon the plates of brass a genealogy of his fathers; wherefore he knew that he was a descendant of Joseph; yea, even that Joseph who was the son of Jacob.

They try and argue that the widespread death that occurred during colonization may have wiped out the Lamanite DNA. Unfortunately, the Book of Mormon is explicit in saying that the Lamanites would survive to hear about the restored gospel.


1 Nephi 15:14 And at that day shall the remnant of our seed know that they are of the house of Israel, and that they are the covenant people of the Lord; and then shall they know and come to the knowledge of their forefathers, and also to the knowledge of the gospel of their Redeemer, which was ministered unto their fathers by him; wherefore, they shall come to the knowledge of their Redeemer and the very points of his doctrine, that they may know how to come unto him and be saved.

They say that some members may have incorrectly thought that the Native Americans were Lamanites. If by "some members," they mean "God himself as he reveals the D&C," then they're right.


DC 54:8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.

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 Post subject: Re: New Essay: Book of Mormon And DNA Studies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:27 pm 
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Quote:
Excellent point...they did have marbles...I may have to reconsider my conclusions...


And the marbles were colourful. President Newsroom has so many tools at his disposal.

I'll try to write something soon but its a lovely sunny Saturday morning.

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 Post subject: Re: New Essay: Book of Mormon And DNA Studies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:48 pm 
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Simon Southerton wrote:
I'll try to write something soon but its a lovely sunny Saturday morning.

Tease :smile:

Enjoy your sunny morning but just know that we're anxiously awaiting your response!


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 Post subject: Re: New Essay: Book of Mormon And DNA Studies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:01 pm 
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Madison54 wrote:
Simon Southerton wrote:
I'll try to write something soon but its a lovely sunny Saturday morning.

Tease :smile:

Enjoy your sunny morning but just know that we're anxiously awaiting your response!


One thing I found interesting in the article was the way it carefully avoids taking sides in the Meldrumite (Heartland) vs Sorensonite (Mesoamerica) war. These guys hate each other. But it is obvious that Meldrum and the Sorenson crowd have given input into this document and probably given it the thumbs up.

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 Post subject: Re: New Essay: Book of Mormon And DNA Studies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:02 pm 
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Anyone keeping a running score card of the prophets, apostles and scriptures these essays have tossed under the bus?

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 Post subject: Re: New Essay: Book of Mormon And DNA Studies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:33 pm 
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My thoughts.

Quote:
Nothing is known about the DNA of Book of Mormon peoples
Why not? We know where Jared, Lehi, and Mulek came from and at what time and we know about the genetic makeup of people from that particular time and place. The Book of Mormon even identifies Lehi's ancestry.

Quote:
The Book of Mormon provides little direct information about cultural contact between the peoples it describes and others who may have lived nearby.
Little? It contains none. The text states that the land was purposely left empty by God so Lehi's family would have the land as their inheritance.

Quote:
The Book of Mormon itself, however, does not claim that the peoples it describes were either the predominant or the exclusive inhabitants of the lands they occupied.
Bullcrap. 2 Nephi 1:8-9 contradict this statement.  "And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance. Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall keep his commandments they shall be blessed upon the face of this land, and there shall be none to molest them, nor to take away the land of their inheritance; and they shall dwell safely forever."

Quote:
Finding and clearly identifying their DNA today may be asking more of the science of population genetics than it is capable of providing.
If the science isn't settled, why back track the introduction to state that the Lamanites are "among" the ancestors of the Native Americans?

Quote:
Genetic variations are introduced through what geneticists call random mutation.
I wish they would have said 'so called' random mutation. Hehe.

Quote:
Even if geneticists had a database of the DNA that now exists among all modern American Indian groups, it would be impossible to know exactly what to search for.
Why can't they search for the type of DNA that existed at the time and place that Jared, Lehi, and Mulek came from?

Quote:
It is possible that each member of the emigrating parties described in the Book of Mormon had DNA typical of the Near East, but it is likewise possible that some of them carried DNA more typical of other regions.
What is the possibility that Jared, Lehi, and Mulek had DNA that did not look like the DNA from the other people in time and place they came from? I think they use the word "possibility" here because they don't want to talk "probability."

Quote:
The effect of drift is especially pronounced in small, isolated populations or in cases where a small group carrying a distinct genetic profile intermingles with a much larger population of a different lineage.
So were the Jaredites, Lehites, and Mulekites supposed to have existed in small, isolated areas or are they supposed to have intermingled with the people that were already here (that the Book of Mormon says didn't exist). Also, earlier they said the distinct genetic profile was "possible." Now, the article acts like it's a given.

Quote:
Much as critics and defenders of the Book of Mormon would like to use DNA studies to support their views
I love how they act like they are taking to task defenders of the Book of Mormon too. The truth is, they don't want members getting into the DNA debate at all. They want the members to forget about the DNA issue. That's why they act like they are harping on Book of Mormon defenders too. This sends a signal to the members that studying the issue is a waste of their time and that they shouldn't bother looking into it further.

Quote:
Nothing is known about the DNA of Book of Mormon peoples.
I'm not a geneticist, but that's just wrong, right? If we know the DNA of the people from the time and place that Jared, Lehi, and Mulek came from, we know what their DNA should look like. Right?

Quote:
Their promise to all who study the book “with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ,” is that God “will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.” For countless individuals who have applied this test of the book’s authenticity, the Book of Mormon stands as a volume of sacred scripture with the power to bring them closer to Jesus Christ.
Let's forget about all this science stuff, okay? It's enough that it makes you feel good, right? It brings you closer to Christ, right?

The most glaring omission to me is that the essay completely ignores the verses in the D&C that reference the Lamanites. If the Lamanites existed when and where the D&C said they did, the bottleneck theory is garbage.

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 Post subject: Re: New Essay: Book of Mormon And DNA Studies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:50 pm 
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Actually we don't have to know anything about Lehite, Jaredite or Mulekite DNA to determine if there were foreign intrusions in the DNA of the indigenous populations at the time the immigrations were supposed to happen. If I understand Simon Southerton correctly, it is possible to ascertain if any foreign intrusions at all occurred. If none are present in the time frames claimed, it does not matter what Lehite DNA is supposed to look like anyways since no new DNA appeared in the local population at the correct time.

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 Post subject: Re: New Essay: Book of Mormon And DNA Studies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:55 pm 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
Actually we don't have to know anything about Lehite, Jaredite or Mulekite DNA to determine if there were foreign intrusions in the DNA of the indigenous populations at the time the immigrations were supposed to happen. If I understand Simon Southerton correctly, it is possible to ascertain if any foreign intrusions at all occurred. If none are present in the time frames claimed, it does not matter what Lehite DNA is supposed to look like anyways since no new DNA appeared in the local population at the correct time.


If that's the case, even better. I admit I'm not a genetic expert. But nor am I a dodo. I've read some things.

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