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 Post subject: Re: "Doctor has Life after Death Experience..."
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:49 am 
God

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sleepyhead wrote:

Hello Drifting,

The spirit leaving the body is a very logical assumption to explain the phenomena of astral projection.
With regards to proof of the phenomena, there seems to be a similar observation in OOBE's of a rope/snake extending from the astral body to the human body. This observation cuts across all cultures and has been around for a very long time. Solomon made a reference to it, (I don't have my bible on this computer), when he said when the golden cord is broken the individual dies (not in those exact words).



Thanks sleepy, although I don't agree with the phrase 'a very logical assumption'.
Quote:
Astral projection (or astral travel) is an interpretation of out-of-body experience (OBE) that assumes the existence of an "astral body" separate from the physical body and capable of traveling outside it.[1] Astral projection or travel denotes the astral body leaving the physical body to travel in the astral plane.


A more logical assumption would be:
The mind playing tricks.
Or a vivid dream.
Or self delusion.
Or a made up story for effect or for dealing with something (as in the case of Dr Neal).

Of course that is just my opinion.
And it seems the evidence for OOBE's and NDE's is pure opinion too.

Show me the science... :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: "Doctor has Life after Death Experience..."
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:49 pm 
God

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You are absolutely correct Sleepy! That is definitely by far the most logical assumption in view of all the case histories!


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 Post subject: Re: "Doctor has Life after Death Experience..."
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:19 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
You are absolutely correct Sleepy! That is definitely by far the most logical assumption in view of all the case histories!


Not at all.
The most logical explanation for the tales told by the absolute minority of people who are near death yet recover, is that they are delusional in either the experience or the remembering.

You just want to cherry pick the cases of people who have been near death, recovered who then claim an out of body experience. Logic would suggest that you should take all people who have been near death, compare what percentage claim an out of body experience, then on the basis of probability decide if it is likely that the experience was 'real' inasmuch that a spirit actually left a physical body for a while.

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 Post subject: Re: "Doctor has Life after Death Experience..."
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:21 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:44 am
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Hello drifting,

It would be logical to assume that in order for the OOBE to happen something has to happen with regards to the individual in order to trigger the OOBE. If we agree that not all of those individuals are lying, then it remains to determine what triggers it. To discount all OOBE's because the same experience didn't happen to everyone would be illogical unless we know specifically what creates the OOBE. It also happens to people who are not near death, therefore, being near death can't be considered the sole contributing factor.

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 Post subject: Re: "Doctor has Life after Death Experience..."
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:35 pm 
Stake High Council

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:07 pm
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Evangelic goes to hell for 23 minutes

http://youtu.be/pX6OJWWTI00


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 Post subject: Re: "Doctor has Life after Death Experience..."
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:56 pm 
God

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sleepyhead wrote:
Hello drifting,

It would be logical to assume that in order for the OOBE to happen something has to happen with regards to the individual in order to trigger the OOBE. If we agree that not all of those individuals are lying, then it remains to determine what triggers it. To discount all OOBE's because the same experience didn't happen to everyone would be illogical unless we know specifically what creates the OOBE. It also happens to people who are not near death, therefore, being near death can't be considered the sole contributing factor.


Quote:
The accepted explanation for the OBE in the fields of cognitive science and psychology is that the OBE is a hallucinatory construct that arises from different psychological factors.
wiki


Wiki goes on to list studies etc.

This explanation of oobe's etc seems to me to be the simplest.

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“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: "Doctor has Life after Death Experience..."
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:13 am 
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Hello drifting,

>>>This explanation of oobe's etc seems to me to be the simplest.<<<

While it may be the simplest in order for a theory to have legitimacy (in this case that they are hallucinations), it needs to conform to what we know. If a large number of OOBE's involve seeing a rope attached from what I'll call the spirit body, and this description has lasted for thousands of years, is it logical for a halucination to produce this rope? I don't think so.

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 Post subject: Re: "Doctor has Life after Death Experience..."
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:35 pm 
God

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sleepyhead wrote:
Hello drifting,

>>>This explanation of oobe's etc seems to me to be the simplest.<<<

While it may be the simplest in order for a theory to have legitimacy (in this case that they are hallucinations), it needs to conform to what we know. If a large number of OOBE's involve seeing a rope attached from what I'll call the spirit body, and this description has lasted for thousands of years, is it logical for a halucination to produce this rope? I don't think so.


CFR please.

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“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: "Doctor has Life after Death Experience..."
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:49 am 
CTR A

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:44 am
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Hello,

What does cfr stand for and is there a particular thing you wanted cfr'ed?

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 Post subject: Re: "Doctor has Life after Death Experience..."
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:53 pm 
God

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Evangelic goes to hell for 23 minutes?!? How did he get out?! Who ever would believe that evangelic (censored). That sounds like something straight out of the enquirer!

Anyway, Drifting, this "all in the mind stuff" does not account for the "red shoe" incident as well as many other similar cases!


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 Post subject: Re: "Doctor has Life after Death Experience..."
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:31 pm 
Stake High Council

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gdemetz wrote:
Evangelic goes to hell for 23 minutes?!? How did he get out?! Who ever would believe that evangelic (censored). That sounds like something straight out of the enquirer!

Anyway, Drifting, this "all in the mind stuff" does not account for the "red shoe" incident as well as many other similar cases!


You didn't see the video if you don't know


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 Post subject: Re: "Doctor has Life after Death Experience..."
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:28 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Evangelic goes to hell for 23 minutes?!? How did he get out?! Who ever would believe that evangelic (censored). That sounds like something straight out of the enquirer!

Anyway, Drifting, this "all in the mind stuff" does not account for the "red shoe" incident as well as many other similar cases!


I had an OOBE that had nothing to do with being near death. Having experienced one, which was brought on by horrific news being given to me by police, I know they can happen. It seemed like it was only for a brief few seconds. I was able to see the tops of their heads and could see all around the room we were in - but from a different angle. As quickly as I was "aware" of being out of my body (I could see my body still sitting between the officers); just as quickly, it was over. There was no sense of movement; however my spirit was well aware of re-entering my body.

As a result of this, even if we are suffering a great deal of physical pain before our body dies, at the moment of death I do not think that our spirit will experience the pain of physical death.

Blessings,

jo


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 Post subject: Re: "Doctor has Life after Death Experience..."
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:20 am 
God

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sleepyhead wrote:
Hello,

What does cfr stand for and is there a particular thing you wanted cfr'ed?


I'd like you to provide references for your assertion about the prevalence of ropes being part of an oobe for thousands of years.

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Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: "Doctor has Life after Death Experience..."
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:10 pm 
CTR A

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:44 am
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Drifting wrote:
sleepyhead wrote:
Hello,

What does cfr stand for and is there a particular thing you wanted cfr'ed?


I'd like you to provide references for your assertion about the prevalence of ropes being part of an oobe for thousands of years.


Hello drifting,

me>>>While it may be the simplest in order for a theory to have legitimacy (in this case that they are hallucinations), it needs to conform to what we know. If a large number of OOBE's involve seeing a rope attached from what I'll call the spirit body, and this description has lasted for thousands of years, is it logical for a halucination to produce this rope? I don't think so.<<<

In wikipedia theres the following statement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-body_experience
>>>Previous collections of cases had been made by Dr Ernesto Bozzano (Italy) and Dr. Robert Crookall (UK). Crookall approached the subject from a spiritualistic position, and collected his cases predominantly from spiritualist newspapers such as the Psychic News, which appears to have biased his results in various ways. For example, the majority of his subjects reported seeing a cord connecting the physical body and its observing counterpart; whereas Green found that less than 4% of her subjects noticed anything of this sort, and some 80% reported feeling they were a "disembodied consciousness", with no external body at all.<<<
Actually I thaught it was greater than 4 % but even 4 % would be large.

In Ecclesiastes 12: 6-7 it says: Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. This would indicate that people believed a rope connected individuals to there spirit bodies back in Solomons day.

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 Post subject: Re: "Doctor has Life after Death Experience..."
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:19 pm 
God
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jo1952 wrote:
gdemetz wrote:
Evangelic goes to hell for 23 minutes?!? How did he get out?! Who ever would believe that evangelic (censored). That sounds like something straight out of the enquirer!

Anyway, Drifting, this "all in the mind stuff" does not account for the "red shoe" incident as well as many other similar cases!


I had an OOBE that had nothing to do with being near death. Having experienced one, which was brought on by horrific news being given to me by police, I know they can happen. It seemed like it was only for a brief few seconds. I was able to see the tops of their heads and could see all around the room we were in - but from a different angle. As quickly as I was "aware" of being out of my body (I could see my body still sitting between the officers); just as quickly, it was over. There was no sense of movement; however my spirit was well aware of re-entering my body.

As a result of this, even if we are suffering a great deal of physical pain before our body dies, at the moment of death I do not think that our spirit will experience the pain of physical death.

Blessings,

jo


DId your body die while the spirit was out? How can people be alive without spirits?

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 Post subject: Re: "Doctor has Life after Death Experience..."
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:23 pm 
God

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Bodily functions can and do still continue during OBE's. Obviously, in death they don't.


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 Post subject: Re: "Doctor has Life after Death Experience..."
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:19 am 
God

Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:52 am
Posts: 7306
sleepyhead wrote:

Hello drifting,

me>>>While it may be the simplest in order for a theory to have legitimacy (in this case that they are hallucinations), it needs to conform to what we know. If a large number of OOBE's involve seeing a rope attached from what I'll call the spirit body, and this description has lasted for thousands of years, is it logical for a halucination to produce this rope? I don't think so.<<<

In wikipedia theres the following statement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-body_experience
>>>Previous collections of cases had been made by Dr Ernesto Bozzano (Italy) and Dr. Robert Crookall (UK). Crookall approached the subject from a spiritualistic position, and collected his cases predominantly from spiritualist newspapers such as the Psychic News, which appears to have biased his results in various ways. For example, the majority of his subjects reported seeing a cord connecting the physical body and its observing counterpart; whereas Green found that less than 4% of her subjects noticed anything of this sort, and some 80% reported feeling they were a "disembodied consciousness", with no external body at all.<<<
Actually I thaught it was greater than 4 % but even 4 % would be large.

In Ecclesiastes 12: 6-7 it says: Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. This would indicate that people believed a rope connected individuals to there spirit bodies back in Solomons day.


You're joking right?
Less than 4% equates to you as 'a large number'?
" or ever the silver cord be loosed" equates to oobe's experiencing a rope for thousands of years?

Well if it works for you that's great.

_________________
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


Last edited by Drifting on Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: "Doctor has Life after Death Experience..."
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:28 am 
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Drifting wrote:
Well if it works for you that's great.


If it doesn't work for you that's also very great.

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 Post subject: Re: "Doctor has Life after Death Experience..."
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:04 pm 
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just me wrote:

DId your body die while the spirit was out? How can people be alive without spirits?


Hello Just Me,

That is a great question! No, while my spirit was out of it, my physical body did not die. My body was never aware of what happened. It is my spirit that was doing the "experiencing". My best guess answer is that "time" in the spiritual realm does not transpire the same way that time goes by in the physical realm. In fact, as I think on it, those who receive visions describe being carried away in the spirit - but I believe their physical body stays in the physical realm. For instance, when Saul had his road to Damascus experience, those who were with him never mention anything about Saul's body "disappearing".

In a manner of speaking, I think when a person has an OOBE, the physical body experiences a stand-still in time, even though time is still going by in the physical world. I say this because my spirit could see that the police were still talking to my body, though my spirit took a temporary, albeit brief, leave of absence, so to speak. Interestingly, while my spirit was out of my body, my body was not seeing or hearing anything; only my spirit continued to experience its surroundings. Also, both the Head of the Homicide Department, and the detective were completely unaware that anything out of the ordinary had taken place.

Blessings,

jo


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 Post subject: Re: "Doctor has Life after Death Experience..."
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:50 pm 
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Good again Jo!


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