I'd be asking Him to explain why allowing child abuse and starvation were 'part of the plan'. (After I had verified it actually was Jesus by making Him perform the sacred handshakes obviously).

I go to a Baptist Church so I should know their Theology

Jo, I have no argument with your last post. It is essentially just that which prompted my question. Validity of the Book of Mormon aside it just seems odd to me, in this quote, to pray to Jesus when he is there physically with them. It is a curious passage, I think.

Since you are not a leader in the Baptist Church, I think GD would prefer not to accept your interpretation of Baptist Theology as you are not an authority on the subject.

Blessings,

jo

Albion,

I think Jesus' words have at least a two-fold purpose. One is that Jesus has always given Glory to the Father. Even though Father is very aware of what is happening between Christ and the Nephites, Christ feels the need to let Father know that He is not purposely seeking for the Nephites to pray to Him instead of Father. The other purpose would be to show us that He is not contradicting the teaching of praying to Father; as this a unique situation for the Nephites to actually have Christ in their presence. I think it would have been inappropriate for Christ to rebuke the Nephites for praying to Him instead of Father under those circumstances. If He had rebuked them, it seems to me that this would have been a very unkind, unfair, and unloving thing for Him to do. He made sure that He privately went to Father to talk to Father about this, because it is still Christ's desire to do Father's will.

Blessings,

jo

That's as good an answer as any in explaining Jesus's motivation if this were a real incident but it doesn't really answer why they would need to approach Jesus through the process of prayer when he is right there with them. If Jesus were before me, after I got over all the natural human reactions, I would, if I could find my tongue, talk to him straight up and wouldn't need to resort to prayer. I guess there's no real answer as to what the author had in mind.

And yet, Jo, gdemetz, expects those of us who disagree to accept that he is an authority on Mormonism. I have attended Baptist churches and cannot recall ever hearing a specific sermon on the subject of the Trinity. I have also been involved in private Bible studies that have included Baptist participants (part of the fellowship that Christians from different denominations can have) and have no doubt that what has been expressed with regard to the Trinity is firmly believed by those participants.

Hi Albion,

I responded to her quote in the manner that I did, because she is the one who first said this to GD:

I'll take a general authority's opinion over yours anyday about Mormonism

Then she said this:

Lets see gdemetz, not probably a general authority in Mormonism, but gives his opinion over a general authority . I wonder who knows Mormonism better.

And finally, she said this:

I go to a Baptist Church so I should know their Theology

I am just exposing her inability to apply the same standard to her own comments which she applies to GD's comments. Thus, I am exposing the irony, and dishonesty she uses. She does NOT understand LDS beliefs. She doesn't even understand her own beliefs, or what her beliefs look like. But she is happy to claim authoritative knowledge and understanding of both the LDS Church, and of her own church.

So what is she even doing here? She certainly is not seeking truth. As Subgenius has already mentioned, and I have agreed, she is trolling.

Blessings,

jo

Mormons do not understand the Trinity, The difference between the Creedal Evangelican and Mormonism is we believe what Joseph Smith Jr taught before he became a polythiest

2 Nephi 31:
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Alma 11:
44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Mormon 7:
7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

The Testimony of Three Witnesses
And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

Doctrine and Covenants 20 :
28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

Then Joseph Smith Jr became a Polythiest and taught this

Joseph Smith said the Trinity is three gods.
"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods," (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370)


So Creedal Evangelics say three separate and Distinct persons represent the One God while Mormons say three distinct personages and three Gods, this is the most precise and accurate definition I can give. Is even more accurate than Rush Limbaugh who is 99.8 % accurate

Mittens you neither understand Baptist or Mormon doctrine! I just gave you a direct quote from the Southern Baptist Convention's own recorded doctrine! Duh?!? Also, if you don't even understand your own beliefs, how in the world can I expect you to understand Mormon doctrine?!? Yes, Joseph Smith stated it correctly, having witnessed it himself, "THREE GODS"! What you can never seem to understand, and I am starting to believe that it is beyond your capacity, is the fact that these three Gods make up what is termed by Mormons as the "Godhead," and that Godhead is worshiped as "one God"!!!!!!!

I never seen a Southern Baptist Convention's statement just your misunderstanding of it, why not hyperlink it so I can understand the content. My Baptist Minster speaks on the Trinity and uses the Trinity Triangle which states One God Three separate persons

Google it Mittens! It's a direct quote!!!

Here's the Southern Baptist Convention's statement on God

God

There is one and only one living and true God. He is an intelligent, spiritual, and personal Being, the Creator, Redeemer, Preserver, and Ruler of the universe. God is infinite in holiness and all other perfections. God is all powerful and all knowing; and His perfect knowledge extends to all things, past, present, and future, including the future decisions of His free creatures. To Him we owe the highest love, reverence, and obedience. The eternal triune God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being.

[Like I have always said essence, being, substance our the same as God or Godhead] which is always One, Persons is always plural

A. God the Father

God as Father reigns with providential care over His universe, His creatures, and the flow of the stream of human history according to the purposes of His grace. He is all powerful, all knowing, all loving, and all wise. God is Father in truth to those who become children of God through faith in Jesus Christ. He is fatherly in His attitude toward all men.

Genesis 1:1; 2:7; Exodus 3:14; 6:2-3; 15:11ff.; 20:1ff.; Leviticus 22:2; Deuteronomy 6:4; 32:6; 1 Chronicles 29:10; Psalm 19:1-3; Isaiah 43:3,15; 64:8; Jeremiah 10:10; 17:13; Matthew 6:9ff.; 7:11; 23:9; 28:19; Mark 1:9-11; John 4:24; 5:26; 14:6-13; 17:1-8; Acts 1:7; Romans 8:14-15; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 4:6; Colossians 1:15; 1 Timothy 1:17; Hebrews 11:6; 12:9; 1 Peter 1:17; 1 John 5:7.

B. God the Son

Christ is the eternal Son of God. In His incarnation as Jesus Christ He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. Jesus perfectly revealed and did the will of God, taking upon Himself human nature with its demands and necessities and identifying Himself completely with mankind yet without sin. He honored the divine law by His personal obedience, and in His substitutionary death on the cross He made provision for the redemption of men from sin. He was raised from the dead with a glorified body and appeared to His disciples as the person who was with them before His crucifixion. He ascended into heaven and is now exalted at the right hand of God where He is the One Mediator, fully God, fully man, in whose Person is effected the reconciliation between God and man. He will return in power and glory to judge the world and to consummate His redemptive mission. He now dwells in all believers as the living and ever present Lord.

Genesis 18:1ff.; Psalms 2:7ff.; 110:1ff.; Isaiah 7:14; 53; Matthew 1:18-23; 3:17; 8:29; 11:27; 14:33; 16:16,27; 17:5; 27; 28:1-6,19; Mark 1:1; 3:11; Luke 1:35; 4:41; 22:70; 24:46; John 1:1-18,29; 10:30,38; 11:25-27; 12:44-50; 14:7-11; 16:15-16,28; 17:1-5, 21-22; 20:1-20,28; Acts 1:9; 2:22-24; 7:55-56; 9:4-5,20; Romans 1:3-4; 3:23-26; 5:6-21; 8:1-3,34; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 2:2; 8:6; 15:1-8,24-28; 2 Corinthians 5:19-21; 8:9; Galatians 4:4-5; Ephesians 1:20; 3:11; 4:7-10; Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 1:13-22; 2:9; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 1 Timothy 2:5-6; 3:16; Titus 2:13-14; Hebrews 1:1-3; 4:14-15; 7:14-28; 9:12-15,24-28; 12:2; 13:8; 1 Peter 2:21-25; 3:22; 1 John 1:7-9; 3:2; 4:14-15; 5:9; 2 John 7-9; Revelation 1:13-16; 5:9-14; 12:10-11; 13:8; 19:16.

C. God the Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, fully divine. He inspired holy men of old to write the Scriptures. Through illumination He enables men to understand truth. He exalts Christ. He convicts men of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. He calls men to the Saviour, and effects regeneration. At the moment of regeneration He baptizes every believer into the Body of Christ. He cultivates Christian character, comforts believers, and bestows the spiritual gifts by which they serve God through His church. He seals the believer unto the day of final redemption. His presence in the Christian is the guarantee that God will bring the believer into the fullness of the stature of Christ. He enlightens and empowers the believer and the church in worship, evangelism, and service.

Genesis 1:2; Judges 14:6; Job 26:13; Psalms 51:11; 139:7ff.; Isaiah 61:1-3; Joel 2:28-32; Matthew 1:18; 3:16; 4:1; 12:28-32; 28:19; Mark 1:10,12; Luke 1:35; 4:1,18-19; 11:13; 12:12; 24:49; John 4:24; 14:16-17,26; 15:26; 16:7-14; Acts 1:8; 2:1-4,38; 4:31; 5:3; 6:3; 7:55; 8:17,39; 10:44; 13:2; 15:28; 16:6; 19:1-6; Romans 8:9-11,14-16,26-27; 1 Corinthians 2:10-14; 3:16; 12:3-11,13; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; 5:18; 1 Thessalonians 5:19; 1 Timothy 3:16; 4:1; 2 Timothy 1:14; 3:16; Hebrews 9:8,14; 2 Peter 1:21; 1 John 4:13; 5:6-7; Revelation 1:10; 22:17.

Hello Mittens?!? That is exactly what I quoted to you, and apparetly you still fail to comprehend it as well as the difference in it compared to Mormon doctrine!!! Did you happen to notice, by any chance, what Wikipedia noticed?!? That is that it states that God is ONE BEING!

An English comprehension lesson Mittens:

"...without division of nature, essence, or "BEING" means that their God of their "trinity" is one "being" just as Wikipedia correctly stated!!!!!!!

Wikipedia is hardly a reliable source no matter who is quoting it.

Where have you been through all this Albion?! Wikipedia is just one source of quotes that I used although it does refer to at least one notable PHD!

Got this from Wikipedia and Mormon laughed to me for using them as sourse

Death and legacy

Parley P. Pratt's grave
While returning from a horseback missionary trip to the southern United States in 1857, Pratt was being tracked by Hector McLean. McLean was the legal husband of one of Pratt's plural wives, Eleanor McLean. Pratt had met Eleanor McLean in San Francisco, California, where Pratt was presiding over a church mission. In San Francisco, Eleanor had joined the LDS Church and had also had her oldest sons baptized. Hector rejected Mormonism and opposed his wife's membership in the church. The dispute over the church led to the collapse of the marriage.[3] Fearing that Eleanor would abscond to Utah Territory with their children, Hector sent his sons and his daughter to New Orleans to live with their grandparents.[4] Eleanor followed the children to New Orleans, where she lived with them for three months at her parents' house. Eventually, she and the children left for Utah Territory; she arrived in Salt Lake City on September 11, 1855.[4] Eleanor McLean was employed in Pratt's home as a schoolteacher, and on November 14, 1855, she and Pratt underwent a "celestial marriage" sealing ceremony in the Endowment House.[4] She was the twelfth woman to be sealed to Pratt. Though for religious reasons Eleanor considered herself "unmarried", she was not legally divorced from Hector at the time of her "celestial marriage" to Pratt.[5][6][7]

Didn't Jesus say it was wrong to marry a divorcee ? what about one not even divorced ?

Joseph Smith Jr married, Married women too and was also killed

I know you use other sources, gdemetz...I just don't think wiki is a particulalry credible source.

Albion, I have given you so many credible sources already, not to mention scripture and the Bible, but you prefer the cheap and shallow"Papa Joe" ones since they will agree with your warped interpretation of the Bible!

Mittens is already looking so bad here that she has been inspired to open up another topic in order to ATTACK!!! Unfortunately, once again, she seems very lacking in understanding! No Christian church that I am aware of will deny marriage to a divorced woman, including her church! What hypocrisy! Christ was referring to a higher law, and the perfect way. In the perfect way, there would never be a divorce (except for a very serious offense such as attempted murder, extreme abuse, or adultery, etc., as He mentions.) The perfect higher law is that a woman and man would be virgin when they marry, and remained married forever undefiled. However, we do not live in a perfect world, and that is why the law of Moses was given! The leaders of almost all, if not all of Christendom understand this, even if you don't, Mittens! They will allow a divorced woman to marry again as will the LDS church, and more particularly if it is not the woman's fault.

The Problem is both Joseph Smith Jr and Parley Pratt married women already married and both were killed , so it looks like the punishment fit the sin

That must explain why Abraham, and Moses, and David, and Solomon, and on and on an on were killed because they practiced polygamy and/or polygyny. Oh wait, they weren't killed. They died of old age and natural causes. David, as we know, already had many, many wives when he became responsible for the murder of the husband of a woman he took to wife. God took their son as punishment, but allowed David to live until he died a natural death. This explodes your theory.

You have probably already been told the following as well - but you have chosen to leave it out because it makes your version of the story sound so much more like a headline written in order to get copies sold. The women who were already married entered into Temple Sealings - which were not for the sake of temporal/worldly marriage. They were for the purpose of eternity. You will (if you bother to search for them) find evidence where the husbands signed consents for Joseph to be sealed to their wives because they felt, at the time, that they were unworthy. I have no doubts that if it turns out these men WERE worthy, the necessary steps to rectify their situation will be taken.

In the case of Parley Pratt, the husband had abandoned his wife. Many marriages were performed for the sake of keeping abandoned wives and widows in the care of a man who were willing to take them on for their own protection. The laws of justice for a wronged woman/wife were slow to turn; and in most cases there were no laws constraining a husband who had abandoned his wife to nevertheless take care of her. Even in today's world were there ARE many such laws, a ruling in favor of an abandoned wife with or without children, is not a guaranty they will receive the protection or the money due them.

Also, just because someone is Sealed in the Temple for the purpose of an eternal marriage, the ONLY guaranty that the Sealing will continue for eternity, is if the Holy Spirit of Promise blesses a Sealing.

It sure would be nice if you would look further than your anti-LDS literature to find out for yourself what we really believe.

Blessings,

jo