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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:46 pm 
God
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hatersinmyward wrote:
Honestly I saw insincerity when I read the OP.

When the S.L. Tribune reports on this issue I'll call it a lagit issue.

One of my biggest pet peeves is when somebody devises blatant lies for attention.



I am not sure what you are getting at

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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:10 pm 
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Bob Loblaw wrote:
Juggler Vain wrote:
The fact that the Swedes are finding out about these skeletons in the LDS closet through the internet, rather than through the LDS Church (which has known about them all along), is a complete coincidence. That's the story the local leaders have "agreed" to tell?

That, right there, is some darkly cynical s***. It makes sense as a corporate strategy, but it is a lie.

-JV


Did you expect anything more than a lie?

No, my expectations are low enough that lies are pretty much what I would expect to see. I'm just pointing out the cynicism on display, particularly from a GA that the NOMish among us have looked to as a relatively respectable and honest one. This is an example of how low Marlin Jensen is willing to stoop in order to protect his organization.

Bob Loblaw wrote:
They've been lying for 182 years and they're good at it.

That's true. And to be fair, in this example Jensen is acting in his official capacity, so he is operating in accordance with LDS corporate morals, rather than his own. Maybe he's a decent person in his private life.

-JV


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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:39 pm 
the very elect
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bcspace wrote:
Quote:
JSJr had his hands in 14 year old girls' pants?

The Book of Abraham is not what JSJr claimed?


Neither of those claims is even close to being proven

In your narrow view they have not.

To these Swedes, it appears to be enough.

Seriously though, 9,000 members on the books? So, like 4500 active? Why does LDS Inc even care?

They must have been paying huge amounts of tithing each.

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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:58 am 
God

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With a claimed 14 million members but with the reality of perhaps only 5 million being active to one degree or another, wouldn't it be fair to say that the "apostasy" (can one apostatize from something that is false?) is far winder than just Sweden which is one of the most secular nations in the world anyway? In Europe generally adherence and involvement in churches is at an all time low so can this be seen as part of that overall trend or is Mormonism somehow different. If so, in what way is their falling away different?


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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:18 am 
God

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I think talking about an apostasy from the Church like it has just started is wrong. When activity in Brazil is running at 25% it's more accurate to say the apostasy is more than well under way. Last one out check the font and turn the lights off...

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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:53 am 
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Polygamy-Porter wrote:
...Seriously though, 9,000 members on the books? So, like 4500 active?...


No, more like 2200 active.

M.

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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:45 pm 
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Polygamy-Porter wrote:
In your narrow view they have not.

To these Swedes, it appears to be enough.

Seriously though, 9,000 members on the books? So, like 4500 active? Why does LDS Inc even care?

They must have been paying huge amounts of tithing each.


It reminds me a little of the book '1984'. Winston Smith has become an apostate to Ingsoc. He is eventually captured by 'Big Brother' yet he is not immediately executed by the government. He must first be re-educated into belief before he can then be executed. It served to reinforce belief in the members (and maybe even the leaders).

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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:34 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:50 pm 
Elder

Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:56 pm
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how is the lds church going to rescue swedish Mormons from apostasy?

contract with ikea to make micro temples out of legos and have mormon families put them together in their homes so they will not have time to read anti mormon literature.


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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:02 am 
God

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'The Rescue' is Monson's last desperate attempt at etching his name into the history of Mormonism and as a response to the question "tell me what you did as Prophet" he expects to get from Jesus.

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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:24 am 
God
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Drifting wrote:
'The Rescue' is Monson's last desperate attempt at etching his name into the history of Mormonism and as a response to the question "tell me what you did as Prophet" he expects to get from Jesus.


I don't think I saw any names of the FP or Q12 on that rescue plan ... appears the history department and a seventy has things covered!

Bit strange that Prophets, Seers and Revelators seem to be dead in the church and the Irovy Tower is running the show.


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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:48 pm 
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Equality wrote:
Wow. Jensen is one I still had a smidgen of respect for. No more. He's a liar like all the rest. I doubt this "program" he outlines will be effective with the Swedes, who after all are generally well educated and satisfied with a secular life. To be a Mormon in Sweden must be even more of an alienating and marginalizing thing than to be Mormon in America outside the Mormon Corridor.


I think I can speak to this. It is not so much that Swedes are too smart to be religious but they are too conformist to break out and take a stand that is outside the norm. Children are taught at an early age not to stand out in any way, to never think of themselves as superior or better. To be part of the collective is the ideal. It stems from a notion that grew in peasant villages called "Lagom." There is no English translation except maybe that one can celebrate being average.

Children are also taught not to be loud, even in the forest parents will tell playing children to keep the noise down. If you get on a crowded bus or a train full of white people (ethnic Swedes) it will be totally silent as everyone curls up into their own detached world. There is a joke that if you are out jogging in Sweden and someone says "hello" then they are either drunk, American or both.

Swedes also are indoctrinated to study religion but only in the academic context -.- never to find a higher meaning in anything. For this reason even New Age is rarely practiced in its various forms. This makes it hard for member and full time missionaries to make any progress as it is hard to get over the social barriers to discussing religion much less the Borg-like desire not to be different. Most converts are from non-Swedish immigrants but before anyone makes any comments about lower educated people I will note that most of the Swedes are far less skilled in science and mathematics than the Iranian and Arab immigrants. While Finland (next door neighbor but not related to the Swedes ethnically) has the best academic performance in Europe Sweden's school performance is nothing to brag about.

Now I am not going to say Sweden is not good at some things but individuality is not something that really describes Swedish culture as a whole.


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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:53 pm 
Savior (mortal ministry)

Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:25 pm
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Quote:
They must have been paying huge amounts of tithing each.


Actually my understanding is that with the high tax rates in the Nordic nations very, very few members pay tithing on pre-taxed income.


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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:31 am 
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Dianne Ormond wrote:
Apostasy is running rampant in Sweden with many prominent LDS families and leaders recently leaving the church over historical problems of the church that are becoming well-known there. In order to help these struggling members in Sweden, the LDS Church issued a document to the local leadership called 'The Swedish Rescue'.

These documents are circulating on the Internet on various Swedish Internet groups. Someone who knows Swedish translated it and sent it to MormonThink to share with other members who might find it of interest.

http://www.mormonthink.com/swedish-rescue.htm

I note that Section 4.5 of the document provides an outline of "three levels" of Church history. The document credits Stanley Kimball with the concept ("Fritt efter professor Stanley Kimball," which I take to mean that the outline was inspired by, or based on, an idea from Kimball), but no textual source is cited. (A letter from Kimball to Elder Boyd K. Packer that mentions this concept is posted here.)

When I read this section of the document, I immediately thought of several essays by Daniel Peterson that discuss Kimball's outline. In an essay published in the Deseret News in 2012, for instance, Peterson described Kimball’s "levels" in the following terms:
Quote:
Decades ago, I attended a gathering where the late Stanley Kimball, a professor of history at Southern Illinois University and president of the Mormon History Association, spoke. His remarks have stuck in my mind ever since. (If anybody out there knows where a written version of the speech can be found, I would be delighted to see it.)

Kimball explained what he called the "three levels" of Mormon history, which he termed Levels A, B, and C….

Level A, he said, is the Sunday School version of the church and its history. Virtually everything connected with the church on Level A is obviously good and true and harmonious. Members occasionally make mistakes, perhaps, but leaders seldom, if ever, do. It's difficult for somebody on Level A to imagine why everybody out there doesn't immediately recognize the obvious truth of the gospel, and opposition to the church seems flatly satanic.

Level B…is perhaps most clearly seen in anti-Mormon versions of church history. According to many hostile commentators, everything that Level A says is good and true and harmonious turns out actually to be evil and false and chaotic. Leaders are deceitful and evil, the church's account of its own story is a lie, and, some extreme anti-Mormons say, even the general membership often (typically?) misbehaves very badly.

But one doesn't need to read anti-Mormon propaganda in order to be exposed to elements of Level B that can't quite be squared with an idealized portrait of the Restoration. Whether new converts or born in the covenant, maturing members of the church will inevitably discover, sooner or later, that other Saints, including leaders, are fallible and sometimes even disappointing mortals. There are areas of ambiguity, even unresolved problems, in church history; there have been disagreements about certain doctrines; some questions don't have immediately satisfying answers….

Kimball remarked that the church isn't eager to expose its members to such problems. Why? Because souls can be and are lost on Level B. And, anyway, the church isn't some sort of floating seminar in historiography. Regrettably, perhaps, most Latter-day Saints — many of them far better people than I — aren't deeply interested in history, and, more importantly, many other very important priorities demand attention, including training the youth and giving service. Were he in a leadership position, Kimball said, he would probably make the same decision.

But he argued that once members of the church have been exposed to Level B, their best hope is to press on to the richer but more complicated version of history (or to the more realistic view of humanity) that is to be found on Level C. Very importantly, he contended (and I agree) that Level C...turns out to be essentially, and profoundly, like Level A. The gospel is, in fact, true. Church leaders at all levels have, overwhelmingly, been good and sincere people, doing the best that they can with imperfect human materials (including themselves) under often very difficult circumstances.

But charity and context are all-important. Life would be much easier if we could find a church composed of perfect leaders and flawless members. Unfortunately, at least in my case, the glaringly obvious problem is that such a church would never admit me to membership.

(Peterson also discusses Kimball's three levels here and here.)

There are several textual parallels between Peterson's essay (published in February 2012) and the description of Kimball’s concept featured in the Swedish Rescue document (distributed in March 2012). The parallels are stronger in the two documents' descriptions of Levels A and B than of C, but the similarities seem sufficient to raise the question: did Peterson have a hand in the Swedish Rescue document?

Level A of Church history

Swedish Rescue document:
Quote:
"Church-lesson-level." Everything is in harmony, good and true.

Peterson:
Quote:
[T]he Sunday School version of the church and its history. Virtually everything connected with the church on Level A is obviously good and true and harmonious.

Level B of Church history

Swedish Rescue document:
Quote:
"Anti-Mormon level." Everything we thought was harmonious, good and true appears instead to be evil, false and chaotic.

In order to sort out their dilemma, one can choose to:

1) manage their frustration and integrate the new information in their mind and testimony
2) abandon their faith
3) continue to the more intellectually demanding level C.

Peterson:
Quote:
Level B…is perhaps most clearly seen in anti-Mormon versions of church history. According to many hostile commentators, everything that Level A says is good and true and harmonious turns out actually to be evil and false and chaotic.

Level C of Church history

Swedish Rescue document:
Quote:
"Academic-scientific level." Not everyone has to penetrate to this level, but for some it may be necessary. There may be those that continue to suffer from Level B or who think that the A-level is inadequate in some way. This level describes a multi-faceted and more complex story to relate to.

At Level C is required including that we study deeply and is willing to take up new frames of reference and knowledge. Many have heard about the BYU professor Hugh Nibley, but few have read his works. Many have heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls and Nag Hammadi Scriptures, but few know research.

One challenge is that most of the level B is not sufficiently familiarizing themselves with the scientific research available on level C.

"To meet the intellectual arguments [for example, at level B *] are required even sharper counter-argument [from level C *]." Apostle Henry B. Eyring.

Most members live on Level A, all his life. They do not get to level B and C. It is enough for one's salvation to be at Level A.

Peterson:
Quote:
Kimball remarked that the church isn't eager to expose its members to such problems. Why? Because souls can be and are lost on Level B. And, anyway, the church isn't some sort of floating seminar in historiography. Regrettably, perhaps, most Latter-day Saints — many of them far better people than I — aren't deeply interested in history, and, more importantly, many other very important priorities demand attention, including training the youth and giving service. Were he in a leadership position, Kimball said, he would probably make the same decision.

But he argued that once members of the church have been exposed to Level B, their best hope is to press on to the richer but more complicated version of history (or to the more realistic view of humanity) that is to be found on Level C. Very importantly, he contended (and I agree) that Level C…turns out to be essentially, and profoundly, like Level A.

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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:07 pm 
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||||||||||||||||||Seriously though, 9,000 members on the books? So, like 4500 active? Why does LDS Inc even care? They must have been paying huge amounts of tithing each.||||||||||||||

I doubt that Sweden has more than a 20% activity rate at best. Places like Chile and the Philippines have an activity rate of about 10% to 15%. I heard 600 Members attended the Jensen/Turley Fireside. I would guess that would be about half of all the active Mormons in the greater Stockholm area.


The Brethren look at Sweden like Johnson and Nixon looked at Vietnam. I mean, why spend BILLIONS of dollars fighting for a bunch of rice paddies? In truth, we fought in Vietnam NOT to save the Vietnamese from Communism, but to NIP IT IN THE BUD...meaning to stop Communism THERE before it spreads to places that WILL hurt us! By "hurt us" I mean this....Vietname was NOT about fighting for freedom, but about fighting for capitalism, for free markets to stay open and free in the Far East.

The Brethren see the Swedish Apostasy as a small cancer that can spread, so why not try to stop it? They sent an Apostle to "testify" that the Church is true. Wasn't THAT enough? I mean, if you can't trust L. Tom Perry to reveal the Eternal Truth to you, whom can you trust? When that didn't work, they sent Jensen and Turley with "answers" (LAME as most of those answers were). If that doesn't work, the Brethren will try something else. They don't want to start mass excommunications, because they will bring MASSIVE bad press, and perhaps more apostasy. So, for the time, they are using Kid Gloves. They are trying to stroke the Saints back into blind obedience. Hans Mattsson still goes to Church. Does he still pay tithing? Don't know. But, for the time being, the Kid Gloves seems to be pacifying. In the long run, will NON-answers suffice? For many, I don't think so.

I remember when I was still a TBM (True Believing Mormon...for those of you living in Rio Linda). I remember thinking that in the years to follow, massive amounts of evidence for the Book of Mormon will be found. Nephite cities will be found. Remains of pre-columbian horses and sheep and goats will be found. Ancient American chariot wheels will be found. Only a matter of time. Well.....over time....I came to realize, these things won't be found, because they don't' exist. How long with the Swedish Doubters "wait" for answers. Only time will tell. It took me about 13 years of "waiting" before I had to finally admit the Church wasn't gonna come up with any answers other than "Have more faith".

The Brethren see the Swedish Apostasy as a new trend. They are experimenting ways of dealing with it, because they know these apostasies will spring up in other places as times rolls on. They are trying to find a way to deal with it effectively. Not having Thus Saith the Lord Revelations to tell them what to do, they are left only to "experimenting". Boyd K. Packer probably says, in those Thursday Night Temple Meetings, "HANG 'EM ALL!" But...I think the Brethren have learned to ignore him by now. I remember when I had some questions, I was simply told: "DO NOT THINK ABOUT THIS OR ASK SUCH QUESTIONS AGAIN OR YOU'LL BE SORRY! WE WILL HAVE YOU EXCOMMUNICATED!" That actually worked, for a while.


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