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 Post subject: whyme, please make MMM acceptable w/context
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:09 pm 
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why me, on 17 July 2012 - 07:48 AM, said:
Of course, MMM is a little off the topic. But on the other hand, members do leave the church over it because they read critic interpretations and become disappointed with that part of lds history. This may not be the only reason, but it can be one reason. The point is that when we look at church history in context, it helps with our understanding about what was going on during that time in church history.


Whyme, what context makes the MMM acceptable?


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 Post subject: Re: whyme, please make MMM acceptable w/context
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:25 pm 
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3sheets2thewind wrote:
Quote:
why me, on 17 July 2012 - 07:48 AM, said:
Of course, MMM is a little off the topic. But on the other hand, members do leave the church over it because they read critic interpretations and become disappointed with that part of lds history. This may not be the only reason, but it can be one reason. The point is that when we look at church history in context, it helps with our understanding about what was going on during that time in church history.


Whyme, what context makes the MMM acceptable?


I don't think he is saying is or ever would be acceptable, just understandable.


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 Post subject: Re: whyme, please make MMM acceptable w/context
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:35 pm 
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On what grounds is the slaughter of innocents "understandable" then....especially by those claiming to be christians? Under what circumstances is it acceptable to induce those fearful for their lives to surrender under a promise of safety and then to murder all those over the age of five or so with guns and clubs..to strip the bodies and leave them to the elements while stealing all their possessions...and then to lie about it by accusing local Indians of the crime?


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 Post subject: Re: whyme, please make MMM acceptable w/context
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm 
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Albion wrote:
On what grounds is the slaughter of innocents "understandable" then....especially by those claiming to be christians? Under what circumstances is it acceptable to induce those fearful for their lives to surrender under a promise of safety and then to murder all those over the age of five or so with guns and clubs..to strip the bodies and leave them to the elements while stealing all their possessions...and then to lie about it by accusing local Indians of the crime?


Very few if any leave for this issue alone. It's a side issue, and just a distraction some like whyme like to do to avoid the real issues that cause people to stop believing LDS truth claims.

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 Post subject: Re: whyme, please make MMM acceptable w/context
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:31 pm 
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Themis wrote:
Albion wrote:
On what grounds is the slaughter of innocents "understandable" then....especially by those claiming to be christians? Under what circumstances is it acceptable to induce those fearful for their lives to surrender under a promise of safety and then to murder all those over the age of five or so with guns and clubs..to strip the bodies and leave them to the elements while stealing all their possessions...and then to lie about it by accusing local Indians of the crime?


Very few if any leave for this issue alone. It's a side issue, and just a distraction some like whyme like to do to avoid the real issues that cause people to stop believing LDS truth claims.



Agreed. The MMM was not even on my list of reasons why I left the church. Just like the stone in a hat. There are so many other reasons to leave.

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 Post subject: Re: whyme, please make MMM acceptable w/context
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:48 pm 
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Albion wrote:
On what grounds is the slaughter of innocents "understandable" then....especially by those claiming to be christians? Under what circumstances is it acceptable to induce those fearful for their lives to surrender under a promise of safety and then to murder all those over the age of five or so with guns and clubs..to strip the bodies and leave them to the elements while stealing all their possessions...and then to lie about it by accusing local Indians of the crime?

Well, I can't help you Albion. Probably you should try to understand the motivations behind why people do certain things, take the crusades for example. That doesn't seem to be a very Christian way to behave, but I'm sure they had their reasons.


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 Post subject: Re: whyme, please make MMM acceptable w/context
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:55 pm 
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But we're not talking about the crusades we're talking about something that you suggested could be "understandable".


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 Post subject: Re: whyme, please make MMM acceptable w/context
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:40 pm 
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Albion wrote:
But we're not talking about the crusades we're talking about something that you suggested could be "understandable".


And it can be understood. I'm sure they had reasons and motives. People usually do. Unless you are saying elves and dwarves did it.


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 Post subject: Re: whyme, please make MMM acceptable w/context
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:18 pm 
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I suppose Jack the Ripper had "reasons and motives". I just flat out reject them as any kind of mitigating circumstance. It was an evil premeditated act committed by calculating people without compassion or cause. That they knew their actions were despicable is supported by their subsequent cover up and lies that allowed one man to carry the can for all of them. They were no different from the 9/ll terrorists and the Oklahoma City bombers.


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 Post subject: Re: whyme, please make MMM acceptable w/context
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:39 pm 
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3sheets2thewind wrote:
Quote:
why me, on 17 July 2012 - 07:48 AM, said:
Of course, MMM is a little off the topic. But on the other hand, members do leave the church over it because they read critic interpretations and become disappointed with that part of lds history. This may not be the only reason, but it can be one reason. The point is that when we look at church history in context, it helps with our understanding about what was going on during that time in church history.


Whyme, what context makes the MMM acceptable?

more importantly what naïve soul left the church because of this board?...i laughed out my nose when i read that fantasy.
and where are these "critic interpretations" ? is that a thread on the telestial forum?

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 Post subject: Re: whyme, please make MMM acceptable w/context
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:33 pm 
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Albion wrote:
I suppose Jack the Ripper had "reasons and motives". I just flat out reject them as any kind of mitigating circumstance. It was an evil premeditated act committed by calculating people without compassion or cause. That they knew their actions were despicable is supported by their subsequent cover up and lies that allowed one man to carry the can for all of them. They were no different from the 9/ll terrorists and the Oklahoma City bombers.


I'm glad we agree. To be able to understand the reasons someone does something does not mean you have to agree with them or find them acceptable. And we are back to where I started from. I understand why the MMM happened (as does why me). That doesn't mean I find the reasons for it acceptable.


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 Post subject: Re: whyme, please make MMM acceptable w/context
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:50 pm 
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Tobin wrote:
Albion wrote:
On what grounds is the slaughter of innocents "understandable" then....especially by those claiming to be christians? Under what circumstances is it acceptable to induce those fearful for their lives to surrender under a promise of safety and then to murder all those over the age of five or so with guns and clubs..to strip the bodies and leave them to the elements while stealing all their possessions...and then to lie about it by accusing local Indians of the crime?

Well, I can't help you Albion. Probably you should try to understand the motivations behind why people do certain things, take the crusades for example. That doesn't seem to be a very Christian way to behave, but I'm sure they had their reasons.

Does your understanding the motivations behind those involved in the crusades make you want to join the catholic church? Or does it lead you to the conclusion that they were very misguided individuals, misguided by the catholic church and their zeal to further its cause?

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 Post subject: Re: whyme, please make MMM acceptable w/context
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:48 pm 
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sock puppet wrote:
Tobin wrote:
Well, I can't help you Albion. Probably you should try to understand the motivations behind why people do certain things, take the crusades for example. That doesn't seem to be a very Christian way to behave, but I'm sure they had their reasons.

Does your understanding the motivations behind those involved in the crusades make you want to join the catholic church? Or does it lead you to the conclusion that they were very misguided individuals, misguided by the catholic church and their zeal to further its cause?
Honestly, no. And I couldn't recommend the LDS Church on the basis of how the Mormons behaved either. In fact, I couldn't recommend any church on how people behave that belong to them. You'll find lots of bad actors in any organization. Instead one should seek God and do as God says.


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 Post subject: Re: whyme, please make MMM acceptable w/context
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:05 am 
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3sheets2thewind wrote:
Quote:
why me, on 17 July 2012 - 07:48 AM, said:
Of course, MMM is a little off the topic. But on the other hand, members do leave the church over it because they read critic interpretations and become disappointed with that part of LDS history. This may not be the only reason, but it can be one reason. The point is that when we look at church history in context, it helps with our understanding about what was going on during that time in church history.


Whyme, what context makes the MMM acceptable?


I think Whyme was just explaining the problem LDS people face when learning about this tragedy, rather than defending the indefensible.

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 Post subject: Re: whyme, please make MMM acceptable w/context
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:04 am 
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I note that Why Me appears to be in hiding and subgenius is refusing to answer the OP *sigh*

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 Post subject: Re: whyme, please make MMM acceptable w/context
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:28 am 
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sock puppet wrote:
Tobin wrote:
Well, I can't help you Albion. Probably you should try to understand the motivations behind why people do certain things, take the crusades for example. That doesn't seem to be a very Christian way to behave, but I'm sure they had their reasons.

Does your understanding the motivations behind those involved in the crusades make you want to join the catholic church? Or does it lead you to the conclusion that they were very misguided individuals, misguided by the catholic church and their zeal to further its cause?
Tobin wrote:
Honestly, no. And I couldn't recommend the LDS Church on the basis of how the Mormons behaved either. In fact, I couldn't recommend any church on how people behave that belong to them. You'll find lots of bad actors in any organization. Instead one should seek God and do as God says.

So why an organization instead of God just telling you directly what he wants you to do, and you doing it?

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 Post subject: Re: whyme, please make MMM acceptable w/context
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:35 am 
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sock puppet wrote:
So why an organization instead of God just telling you directly what he wants you to do, and you doing it?
I simply view the Church as an association of "generally" like-minded individuals where I can discuss things and, provided they are willing, do some good in common cause with. And I'm very much about going with what God directly inspires me to reasonably believe is true. I think I've made that clear in multiple posts.


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 Post subject: Re: whyme, please make MMM acceptable w/context
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:16 pm 
(Moderator Note) Please refrain from name calling in the Celestial Forum. I have split out inappropriate behavior.


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 Post subject: Re: whyme, please make MMM acceptable w/context
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:23 pm 
Albion wrote:
But we're not talking about the crusades we're talking about something that you suggested could be "understandable".


The LDS people that crossed the plains had already endured the slaughter that occurred at Winter Quarters. There was an intense fear of the mobs who murdered Joseph Smith continuing to pursue them.

I believe that the order for the attack of MMM was done out of that fear. However, there is absolutely NO excuse for what actually occurred. Once it was obvious that the folks in that party were merely families, and had no interest in hurting anyone, they should have been simply let on their way.

What did happen was truly sickening, and there is no defense for it.


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 Post subject: Re: whyme, please make MMM acceptable w/context
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:37 pm 
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Drifting wrote:
I note that Why Me appears to be in hiding and subgenius is refusing to answer the OP *sigh*

The OP is not really asking a question, it is not even a good attempt at a loaded question.
However, as for the context that makes the MMM acceptable? i would say that the context of the MMM makes it acceptable.

(Drifting - insert bias opinion, gossip, suppositions, and theory-passed-for-fact about MMM in space below)

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 Post subject: Re: whyme, please make MMM acceptable w/context
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:46 pm 
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What utter claptrap. MMM was years after anything that happened to Mormons in Illinois or in their flight from that place and even with talk of Federal troops being sent to quell a falsely rumored Utah war it is pretty pathetic to use a presumed fear as an excuse. What on earth threat could these pioneers passing through Utah Territory have posed to Mormons firmly entrenched on their ranches and farms and in towns adjacent to their route? The location of the MM site, even by car today, is an out of the way place and the trail through it was taking the wagon train in a south westerly direction away from Mormon enclaves such as St. George, even more so from Cedar City and Parawan where most of the murderers were from. The fact that locals got the travelers to surrender under a false promise of safety and then slaughtered them in cold blood on a prearranged signal removes even the suggestion that the Mormons had cause to be fearful. If fear was their motive they could have escorted them under guard out of Mormon country and on their way through present day Nevada. In and of itself, the MMM proves nothing for or against Mormonism as a belief system but I reject any pathetic attempt to justify it in any way. It was a barbaric, murderous slaughter and robbery of innocents that properly places a very dark stain on Utah history.


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