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 Post subject: Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:53 pm 
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Droopy wrote:
And this is where any intellectual credibility you may have ever had on this issue jumps the rails.


Hardly. Maybe among your fellow moon bats and self-appointed Danites.

Quote:
Neither in accusing him of anything (being essentially an apostate from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints), or criticizing his arguments and claims in support of what he's doing, or in challenging his motives and intentions, am I usurping any authority. Indeed, I don't need one speck of priesthood authority, as a Latter day Saint, to criticize his public claims in the public sphere, or to intellectually challenge him in that same public sphere to account for himself, his beliefs, and his aims and goals.

I do, through the oath and covenant of the priesthood, have a responsibility to warn, preach, teach, expound and exhort John Dehlin to cease his project of leading others out of the Church, and supporting cultural Mormonism within it, regardless of whether I'm his immediate priesthood leader or not. If he was sitting in my living room, I would do the same thing, and I wouldn't call up his Bishop or SP to ask permission to disagree with him or call him to repentance as a worthy priesthood holder. That is my right and authority "at all times and in all things, and in all places."


John Dehlin has both email and a phone. Have you contacted him to exhort, expound, and teach him? Or are you simply showboating in public to prove what a righteous tough guy you are to your fellow moon bats and self-appointed Danites? Drop the self-righteous posturing Droopy. We know that your sickly ego is the reason you are here, not the salvation of John Dehlin or anyone else. You exhibit no caring, compassion, selflessness, or Christlike love. You are helping neither yourself nor anyone else. Your pretense at defending the faith is a sham and a denial of Christ's perfect love.

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 Post subject: Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:00 pm 
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Quote:
John Dehlin has both email and a phone. Have you contacted him to exhort, expound, and teach him? Or are you simply showboating in public to prove what a righteous tough guy you are to your fellow moon bats and self-appointed Danites? Drop the self-righteous posturing Droopy. We know that your sickly ego is the reason you are here, not the salvation of John Dehlin or anyone else. You exhibit no caring, compassion, selflessness, or Christlike love. You are helping neither yourself nor anyone else. Your pretense at defending the faith is a travesty and a denial of Christ's perfect love.


You have no idea about me, what I'm like, my motives, my life, or anything else beyond what an evil little pustule like Scratch has fed you in his own mad clawing grasp at credibility.

The above paragraph is ample evidence that that paragraph's contents are nothing more than a wild, flailing exercise in projection, something that defines the exmo world of woe, as perhaps nothing else does.

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 Post subject: Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:00 pm 
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Hello...I must be going.

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 Post subject: Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:11 pm 
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Droopy wrote:
You have no idea about me, what I'm like, my motives, my life, or anything else beyond what an evil little pustule like Scratch has fed you in his own mad clawing grasp at credibility.

The above paragraph is ample evidence that that paragraph's contents are nothing more than a wild, flailing exercise in projection, something that defines the exmo world of woe, as perhaps nothing else does.


By your works we know you. Your claims to exhort others to come unto Christ are phony. You simply come to denigrate others and puff up your own sickly ego. No one here gets any sense of your love and compassion for them. Just stop, Droopy. If anything, you drive people away from Christ. Just stop it.

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 Post subject: Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:13 pm 
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Droopy wrote:
Hello...I must be going.


Yes, you must go. Your conscience convicts you of your wrongdoing. Your pretense at ministering in Christ's name is solemn mockery before God. Repent, Droopy.

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 Post subject: Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:27 pm 
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Droopy wrote:
Hello...I must be going.



As a new guy here...this is the bizarrous part of the entire board...of any board I've participated on. I've been laughing for two weeks since I started here.

Goodbye droopy.

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 Post subject: Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:04 pm 
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cwald wrote:
Droopy wrote:
Hello...I must be going.



As a new guy here...this is the bizarrous part of the entire board...of any board I've participated on. I've been laughing for two weeks since I started here.

Goodbye droopy.


Yep. Almost as funny as someone asserting that a paragraph is evidence of its own contents.

Droopy wrote:
The above paragraph is ample evidence that that paragraph's contents are nothing more than a wild, flailing exercise in projection, something that defines the exmo world of woe, as perhaps nothing else does.

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 Post subject: Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:11 pm 
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Kish,

Since I'm not following the Mormon Stories controversies, I haven't read through Rosalynde's blog post nor entirely through your response here. So, I can't comment on the quality of either her Mormon Stories critique nor of your response.

What I can comment on is the author. While I've never known her well, I met Rosalynde when we were at BYU together and renewed that acquaintance at a Mormon history conference in the last couple years. Based on that acquaintance, one thing I can say for certain is that Rosalynde can't be dismissed as an apologist because of her Welch family connection.

Even if that were something that somehow ought to be held against her (and it's not), it isn't her only family connection to Mormon scholars. When I knew her at BYU her uncle Scott Abbott had just left the university in protest over academic freedom issues.

She was at BYU and continues to be a strong feminist and an open and thoughtful Mormon.

I know your critique is directed primarily at the content of what she wrote. But I noticed that you brought up that she's Jack Welch's daughter-in-law and that she's framed here as an apologist; so I thought I should mention her more liberal family connections and that she seems much more scholarly and thoughtful to me than apologetic.

Cheers,

Don

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 Post subject: Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:36 am 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Is it just a function of LDS culture that any group springing up from it suffers from an anxiety over controlling the discourse tightly?

Hey! I'd say that we here at MormonDiscussions.com are pretty well immune!

Quote:
It is as though each of these little groups has their charismatic leaders whose genius and authority are assumed to be sacrosanct.

I can only dream of having it so good. . .

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 Post subject: Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:16 am 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
Hey! I'd say that we here at MormonDiscussions.com are pretty well immune!


And how rare it is in that respect, Dr.!

Quote:
I can only dream of having it so good. . .


But you don't. That's why this place isn't like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:25 am 
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DonBradley wrote:
I know your critique is directed primarily at the content of what she wrote. But I noticed that you brought up that she's Jack Welch's daughter-in-law and that she's framed here as an apologist; so I thought I should mention her more liberal family connections and that she seems much more scholarly and thoughtful to me than apologetic.

Cheers,

Don


Don,

I appreciate you swinging by to defend Rosalynde and provide us further perspective. No doubt she does not usually play the role of apologist. In this instance, however, she seems to reflect many of the attitudes that are common in the apologetic community. Furthermore, her comments about gay-straight alliance groups, if she is really dismissing them as trivial and useless, were distasteful in the extreme. At best, I would say that her blog is a great cautionary example against blogging on a controversial issue hastily, and writing something that is ambiguous at best and insulting at worst. I stand by my critique of her entry, and she is welcome to clarify her comments. So far she has chosen not to, and she seems to think that they are self-explanatory, although few people outside of the critics of John Dehlin and Mormon Stories appear to agree with her.

I remain open to considering any clarification she might yet provide.

Finally, Rosalynde is the person who invited others to connect her comments to her relationship with Jack Welch in the way she introduced her subject. She makes it clear that it was the controversy over the Maxwell Institute that prompted her to take a closer look at Mormon Stories. Unfortunately, she didn't look very close at all. Instead she decided to take pot shots at John Dehlin, Mormon Stories, and gay-straight alliance groups. Somehow that all just seems so typical of what I encounter in my interactions with many of the online apologists.

All best,

K

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 Post subject: Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:53 am 
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Rosalynde Welch has had to take an awful beating for her ill considered essay. That makes her the second attacker of John Dehlin who impales herself on her own sort.

Unlike Petersen, she will recover from this self-inflicted wound, which is only right since her aggression is a minor one compared to what the FARMS crowd tried to do to John Dehlin.

There is a clear lesson from the mishap of the two attacks on John Dehlin: don't mess with him. To be sure, Dehlin is not perfect. He has weaknesses and has made his share of mistakes but John is sincere and he sincerely tries to help people.

Although that implies a little arrogance, many people love him for his good intentions and his good services. Therefore John Dehlin will always have cogent and competent defenders. If you criticize him, you will have enough trouble if you are right. If you are sloppy or wrong, a defender of John Dehlin will pounce and embarrass you.

Your reputation will suffer for a long time.

That's how the world works: those who live by the sword, shall die by the sword. And those who serve their neighbors, shall enjoy the protection of the community.


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 Post subject: Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:19 am 
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Best. Quote. Ever.

Droopy wrote:
Yeah, yeah, she talks like me ... and I'm not exactly sure what she's trying to say.

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 Post subject: Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:26 am 
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Droopy wrote:
You're statements about my work history and life as a pampered aristocrat living off daddy's money is libel, Scratch, and its actionable. It makes clear, empirical claims that are either true or not true.

Are we clear?


Whoa. Most people would love to be a pampered artistocrat. What's so bad about that?

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 Post subject: Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:28 am 
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Droopy wrote:
You have no idea about me, what I'm like, my motives, my life, or anything else beyond what an evil little pustule like Scratch has fed you in his own mad clawing grasp at credibility.

The above paragraph is ample evidence that that paragraph's contents are nothing more than a wild, flailing exercise in projection, something that defines the exmo world of woe, as perhaps nothing else does.


You are convicted by your own words. I know very little about you except what you have posted here, and it reeks of insecurity (especially intellectual insecurity) and a fragile ego. Self-confident, intelligent people don't throw out all the stupid bluster you do, and people who know how to write don't pretend (and fail) to sound like Foucault.

You've set a mark on your own head as a vacuous gasbag.

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 Post subject: Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:32 am 
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Hellmut wrote:
Rosalynde Welch has had to take an awful beating for her ill considered essay. That makes her the second attacker of John Dehlin who impales herself on her own sort.


Well, personally I don't find any of this a coincidence. The apologists have taken to multiple venues to continue this war of their own making, from their own blogs to those of their supporters. Welch has admitted that her interest in Mormon Stories was not coincidental, and I think it is, truth be told, of much more personal and emotional significance than she is letting on. Her blog post has the foul air of sour grapes emanating from it.

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 Post subject: Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:35 am 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Well, personally I don't find any of this a coincidence. The apologists have taken to multiple venues to continue this war of their own making, from their own blogs to those of their supporters. Welch has admitted that her interest in Mormon Stories was not coincidental, and I think it is, truth be told, of much more personal and emotional significance than she is letting on. Her blog post has the foul air of sour grapes emanating from it.


All I know about Rosalynde Welch is that she's supposed to be some kind of liberal Mormon. Wouldn't have guessed that from her blog post. Definitely sour grapes. These people are pissed that Dehlin has the respect they don't . It's just jealousy.

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 Post subject: Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:38 am 
God

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Bob Loblaw wrote:
These people are pissed that Dehlin has the respect they don't . It's just jealousy.


I think the anti-Dehlin crew has the respect of their peers. I think most of the world doesn't give a flying rat's fanny, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:41 am 
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harmony wrote:
Bob Loblaw wrote:
These people are pissed that Dehlin has the respect they don't . It's just jealousy.


I think the anti-Dehlin crew has the respect of their peers. I think most of the world doesn't give a flying rat's fanny, though.


*style note*
For those viewers in the UK 'fanny' doesn't mean what you think it means...

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 Post subject: Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:44 am 
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Quote:
...and people who know how to write don't pretend (and fail) to sound like Foucault.



Foucault is the last person on this earth who I sound like, or am trying to sound like.

I think I'll have downgrade the general reading comprehension and language usage level in this forum from 7th and 8th to perhaps 1st and 2nd, just to be sure there's no child left behind.

And all this because I told the simple, unarguable truth, that Scratch was an evil little pustule? Perhaps this was an uncivil and uncalled for demeaning of pustules, for which I apologize. Is there a pustule rights movement out there you can appeal to for redress of grievance? Can I be sued for pustule harassment? Am I now a pustulist?

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 Post subject: Re: Rosalynde Welch takes on Mormon Stories
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:46 am 
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I have been reading Rosalynde's stuff for a long time now. I was surprised by this article because she is usually a better writer than that, which did make me wonder whether sour grapes were influencing her.

However, my impression (just from reading her postings on various blogs) is that she tends to be fairly conservative/traditional on most topics . . . although she doesn't shy away from edgy literature or art (e.g., I recall that she did a great interview with Neil LaBute a long time ago for Times & Seasons). I wouldn't call her a liberal Mormon. Has she ever called herself that?


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