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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:03 pm 
God

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jo1952 wrote:
Themis wrote:
You guys are losing any credibility you might have had. Are you seriously going to call other religion shallow? Maybe dg you could define what you mean by shallow since I can't see how it could apply to these religions if we go by the dictionaryhttp://dictionary.reference.com/browse/shallow


Themis, I checked out your link and did not see a single prophecy from another religion.



How does not prophesying, which in Christianity is so vague you can interpret them anyway you want have to do with being shallow.

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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:22 pm 
God
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jo1952 wrote:
Themis wrote:
You guys are losing any credibility you might have had. Are you seriously going to call other religion shallow? Maybe dg you could define what you mean by shallow since I can't see how it could apply to these religions if we go by the dictionaryhttp://dictionary.reference.com/browse/shallow


Themis, I checked out your link and did not see a single prophecy from another religion.

All kidding aside, I really would like to learn of prophecies which other religions have made; regardless of whether they have been fulfilled or not. It is obvious that both Frank and DG have assigned Prophecy as a distinguishing feature in religions they would not call shallow. I would be very interested in learning if any other religions include prophecies. This is a subject I have not considered before.

Thanks,

jo


Pardon my just jumping in here. For your consideration:

http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstt ... nae-vitae/

http://www.catholicrevelations.org/

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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:43 pm 
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jo1952 wrote:
Themis, I checked out your link and did not see a single prophecy from another religion.

All kidding aside, I really would like to learn of prophecies which other religions have made; regardless of whether they have been fulfilled or not. It is obvious that both Frank and DG have assigned Prophecy as a distinguishing feature in religions they would not call shallow. I would be very interested in learning if any other religions include prophecies. This is a subject I have not considered before.

Thanks,

jo


Here's a few (did a Google):

http://bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/hindusa.htm

http://bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/hindutim.htm

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090312072704AAXHvO4

http://www.iawwai.com/BuddhistProphecies.html

http://www.alislam.org/library/articles/prophecies.html

http://bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/nativeam.htm

There is an endless list. Just do some Googling.

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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:29 pm 
God

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Actually, comparing the prophesies of Christianity to whatever prophesies supposedly came from other religions would be like comparing the New York Yankees to some little league team. There were about 500 prophesies alone dealing with the life of Christ!


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:09 pm 
God
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Quasimodo wrote:
Here's a few (did a Google):
There is an endless list. Just do some Googling.


Thank you so much for the links. Many are general but some are in line with the detail of the Christian faith. I noticed a common theme for the prophecies.

I will look into this subject further. It may take some time. But on the face I would say that prophecy is not limited to the Christian prophets. But in looking at the ones I read I would have to say they speak of the very same things that the Christian prophets speak of. It has always been my belief that prophecy is not bound by the prophets of the Bible (the formal ones). Even the scriptures say as much. What I was not aware of was the formal written record of prophecies in the other major religions. It changes nothing in my faith and actually strengthens it. That would be hard to explain but in time I may be able to. This was unexpected. Thanks again.


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:50 am 
God
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Is it possible for us to be in the presence of the Father? According to scripture it is possible and is something we all should seek. Why we come into this house of flesh to advance in a spiritual way is not clear. I think this part of the walk in faith we must have. For some reason we are to cross some areas along the path by faith alone. Something that transcends this physical world. In fact this physical world can indeed be a stumbling block for us. We can embrace the physical world and turn away from the spiritual path. We can seek proof or evidence in the physical world. Many have done this and they all lend a hand to pull others from the spiritual path. They invite others to rest in the comfort in the solid appearing creation. But the solid nature they speak of is an illusion. The greater reality exist at the end of our journey not at the beginning.

Deu 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Pro 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

Ecc 8:17 Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labor to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:09 pm 
God

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Yes, it sure is. Joseph Smith knew that first hand.


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:22 am 
God
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gdemetz wrote:
Yes, it sure is. Joseph Smith knew that first hand.


People who by evidence are given a look at the Kingdom of God have a most difficult path. For those who know are judged by what they know. They can no longer hide behind a lack of knowledge.

When I was first developing my faith in God and making the first steps on a spiritual path I had a few encounters with the dark side. They knew before I did where I was going. I had followers of Satan find me on the street and talk to me. And I had a visit from a demon one night. I did not know it at the time but all of this was by permission. Permission I had given them by my actions earlier in my life. But Jesus came to my rescue and they were driven off. I have since protected myself from them. But the point is that evil manifested before me. I now know. I often wonder if I am now held to a different standard because of the evidence of the manifestations. Because of the bridges that I had laid down to evil I suspect that it also changed the way that I will be held accountable. To me this is fair. And this is why I warn people not to venture into the spiritual realm before they make sure to protect themselves. In the creation of the LDS church we can see many manifestations of evil. Most of this through men being used by Satan. This is his normal way of doing business. Many run when confronted by evil. Sometimes I wonder just how many make it through and stay the course.


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:01 am 
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Quasimodo wrote:


Thank you, Quasimodo! I just finished reading these. Awesome!!

Blessings,

jo


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:41 pm 
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The Kingdom of God is a very valuable prize. So one would think it would be almost impossible to get. But here God has laid out a most easy path for us. Follow His commandments, treat others as we would treat our self, love each other and love God, and have faith in the unseen. It is our own attachment to the world that makes this path hard. Lose the attachment to the world and the path becomes so much easier to travel. Embrace the world and the path is impossible. Is it possible that the whole of creation is but a doorway? Pull the door aside and step into the next existence. Can it be that simple / hard?


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:44 pm 
God

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Yes Frank! And, if we do those things with an honest heart, then the grace of Christ will save us "after all we can do."


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:25 am 
God

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Grace cannot be earned! If it is earned it is not grace...it is earnings! The very word envelopes the idea of love or consideration we do not deserve. I note, Franktalk, that nowhere in your statement above does Jesus appear in the process. I don't think that's an accident on your part. It's all about you and your effort making you instead of Jesus the center of the process. How are you doing in losing "the attachment to the world"? Have you achieved it yet...will you ever achieve it...will you ever know if you have done enough? Break one commandment and you have broken them all and slide back down your man made ladder. There is only one place to find peace, rest and security and that is in trusting in Jesus who has already paid everything that you might be saved....while you were yet a sinner, he died for you.


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:08 am 
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Albion wrote:
Grace cannot be earned! If it is earned it is not grace...it is earnings! The very word envelopes the idea of love or consideration we do not deserve. I note, Franktalk, that nowhere in your statement above does Jesus appear in the process. I don't think that's an accident on your part. It's all about you and your effort making you instead of Jesus the center of the process. How are you doing in losing "the attachment to the world"? Have you achieved it yet...will you ever achieve it...will you ever know if you have done enough? Break one commandment and you have broken them all and slide back down your man made ladder. There is only one place to find peace, rest and security and that is in trusting in Jesus who has already paid everything that you might be saved....while you were yet a sinner, he died for you.


1 Peter 1:3 (KJV) (with my comments added)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope (NOT guaranty) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


1 Peter 1:6-7 (KJV)

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:


There is still the trial of our faith which needs to be endured.

1 Peter 4:18 (KJV) (emphasis mine)

And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?


The meaning should be obvious.

1 Peter 5:8-10 (KJV)

8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.


Looks like we can still be devoured by Satan.

2 Peter 1:3-12 (KJV) (emphasis mine)

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For IF (again--no guaranty) these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (Yet Peter is still talking to the SAME group of members; meaning that just because you are a member of the Body of Christ, you can STILL BE BLIND!!!)

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: (Obviously, if Peter is teaching them to give diligence in order to make their calling and election sure, then they have not yet achieved this!!)

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. (When and IF they have their calling and election made sure, as explained in verse 10.)

12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
(This is so important that Peter will always remind them of these things, even though at that moment they understood what needed to be done.)

In fact:

2 Peter 1:13-15 (KJV) (emphasis and comments are mine)

13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;

14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

15 Moreover I will endeavour (with speed and diligence) that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.


It is such an important matter that Peter, even knowing that he is soon going to die, wants to remind them again. In verse 15 we see that Peter is going to be diligent AFTER HE IS DEAD to keep reminding them of this. Interesting, yes??

The point is, that the gift of grace, even though it is free to all, is going to require your faith and diligence to reap the benefits of this gift. Remember, even though this gift is free to all, it is like the Gospel message. Some will reject it.

It will be necessary to ADD things to your faith: virtue, then knowledge, then temperance, then patience, then godliness (!!!), then brotherly kindness, then charity. These additions require YOUR EFFORTS!! IOW, you need to do the best that you are able to do; this trial of your faith must be endured. It can be lost by the efforts Satan makes; so don't be one of the ones who are blind because they are not diligent and thus do not obtain the other qualities Peter has pointed to!! Especially, don't be one of those who are blind because they think they don't need to do anything to add to their faith because their chosen religious institution has taught them false doctrine concerning this issue!!

It's right there in the Bible!! Why would Peter teach this, or find it of such importance that he is reminding them even though they already understand the importance; and will even be diligent in reminding them after he is dead?? (Have you given any thought as to HOW Peter personally could remind them after he is dead?....just something to contemplate..)

When we enter the waters of baptism, we are not only manifesting our acceptance of Christ, we are making a promise to God to keep His commandments. Yet we all still fall short. Just like any other promise or covenant we enter into with God, both parties have their end to keep in order for the promise or covenant to be guaranteed. God will ALWAYS keep His part. It is man who falls short; and once we break a promise or covenant, God is no longer bound to it. Through repentance, we can again renew our promise to keep God's commandments. Likewise, to reap the benefits of the gift of Grace, we need to be diligent in growing our faith and adding the other qualities Peter pointed to. They do not come automatically. If they did, no diligence in trying to obtain them would be necessary.

It certainly does not appear unreasonable that we should find in 2Nephi 25:23

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Blessings,

jo


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:58 am 
God

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It is clear from your lengthy post that you understand neither the concept of grace nor the Christian position of salvation by that very grace, despite what we do Like others on the board you appear to persist in the misrepresentation of the Christian position reiterating again, it would appear, that because Christians believe that salvation comes as a free gift through grace nothing is required of them after receipt of the gift. I have to conclude that under the Mormon position if it were possible to do enough good works, live the letter of the law in every way, live a holy and guiltless life, you wouldn't need Jesus at all...you could make it on your own which is the underlying problem with the position espoused by Franktalk above where no mention of Jesus was made. As I said above, grace that has to be earned isn't grace! "For now a righteousness FROM GOD, apart from law (works and ritual) has been made known to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness FROM GOD comes THROUGH FAITH in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Romans 2:21-22. You can rely on your self provided righteousness all you want, I'll place my trust in the one who paid my sin debt in full at Calvary.


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:51 pm 
God
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Franktalk wrote:
Follow His commandments, treat others as we would treat our self, love each other and love God, and have faith in the unseen.


Albion,

Maybe it is not obvious to you but when I said "follow His commandments" the His refers to God. When I said "love God" I meant to love God. And when I said "have faith in the unseen" I was again referring to God. So where you find no God mentioned in my post I find Him everywhere. Isn't that funny. I have to wonder why that is so? Is your hate of the LDS blinding you?


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:51 pm 
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The Kingdom of God can be thought of as Abraham's bosom. One may exist there and see others at a higher state than you. A void exist in which one can not cross. But God has made a plan for us to obtain a higher state. One above the angels. Many have chosen to follow the plan and learn and be tried in the flesh. Where we are refined by God as in a furnace. This process is widely misinterpreted by many where even the creation itself becomes an object of worship. It is a narrow way that leads back to the Father. But what we learn along the way must be of great value. How can anything in this physical world compare?


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:55 pm 
God

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Franktalk, you can imply anything you want. I saw your post as clearly not placing relationship and reliance upon Jesus anywhere but plenty of emphasis on what you do. I do see Mormonism an "another gospel" which ensnares and diverts the unwary and uninformed from a saving relationship with Jesus. That you would resort to diminishing my sincerely held beliefs to being motivated by "hatred" of Mormonism rather than a desire to share Christ is very rich given a foundational statement of Mormonism classifies Christian believers as an abomination.


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:10 pm 
God
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Albion wrote:
Franktalk, you can imply anything you want. I saw your post as clearly not placing relationship and reliance upon Jesus anywhere but plenty of emphasis on what you do. I do see Mormonism an "another gospel" which ensnares and diverts the unwary and uninformed from a saving relationship with Jesus. That you would resort to diminishing my sincerely held beliefs to being motivated by "hatred" of Mormonism rather than a desire to share Christ is very rich given a foundational statement of Mormonism classifies Christian believers as an abomination.


Maybe I missed the section of the Bible that said you can do what ever you want and sin like crazy and God forgives everything. Maybe you can point it out to me. Of course that makes a mockery of the narrow path and few will find it. But hey the gospel according to Albion is for all who sin and if you just say Jesus a few times then it matters not what is in your heart. A free ride to heaven for all.


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:20 pm 
God

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Albion, you are the one with the OTHER gospel! Christ never stated that grace was all that was needed, and the Bible clearly does not teach that. Christ clearly and plainly stated that if someone wanted salvation, he needed to keep the commandments. Therefore, if one states that he has true belief or faith in Christ, but then turns right around and denies His teachings, then he is a liar. His faith is without works, and it is dead just as James states! Did Christ state; if thou wilt enter into life, just make a profession of faith, yes or no?! Or, did He state; if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments, yes or no?!

We have all sinned, that is why we all need Christ's grace, but that does not exempt us from keeping His commandments if we want to be saved!!!


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:11 pm 
God

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gdemetz, the Book of Romans is replete with references to salvation by grace alone. It would be a good place for you to start in your understanding.


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:33 pm 
God

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I have read it. You are misinterpreting the meaning, as usual And you still haven't addressed my questions, and apparently can't put two and two together. Of course, salvation could not be possible without Christ since we all have sinned, however, we still must keep the commandments! Why do you think Christ said that?! Was He lying, or telling us something that we really didn't need to do?! James clearly states that faith without works is dead!!! If you think that a person can profess with his mouth only and be a liar and an adulterer, then you are very ignorant, and you make Christ's words void as well as the holy scriptures! What does the Book of Revelation say will happen to ALL liars and adulterers, etc.?! It doesn't say that they will be exempt since they made a profession of faith! How dumb, you need to learn to put two and two together!


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