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 Post subject: Re: Kinderhook vs the Papyri
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:13 am 
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Drifting wrote:
Tobin wrote:
So in other words, you are ok if people lie. Well, I'm telling the truth. You may not believe it, but I don't care if you believe me or not. I'm still going to tell you the truth as best I see it.
No, you're going to make bald unsupported assertions. Like you always do.


Tobin wrote:
It is only a matter of time Drifting. Enjoy the present. One day, you'll publicly admit there is a God and I will be there and hear and see you do it. Believe it.


Course we do, Tobin, course we do! And all the other deities we don't believe in will get us too. My particular worry is being pecked by Thoth for all eternity.

That beak has me really worried:

Image

I wonder where I will get the first peck?

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 Post subject: Re: Kinderhook vs the Papyri
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:17 am 
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Tobin wrote:
That is just more dissembling and misrepresentations.


Not at all. Your only two answers were Joseph got it wrong, and Joseph can't read Egyptian. Neither answers were to any question any asked, but you used them to avoid the real questions you can't answer.

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 Post subject: Re: Kinderhook vs the Papyri
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:20 am 
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Themis wrote:
Tobin wrote:
That is just more dissembling and misrepresentations.
Not at all. Your only two answers were Joseph got it wrong, and Joseph can't read Egyptian. Neither answers were to any question any asked, but you used them to avoid the real questions you can't answer.
Not quite. In addition to your dissembling and misrepresentations, I'm going to add that you have selective memory. I repeatedly told you that Joseph Smith wasn't God's sock puppet and directly answered all your other non-sense questions at least two or more times.


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 Post subject: Re: Kinderhook vs the Papyri
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:23 am 
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Tobin wrote:
Not quite. In addition to your dissembling and misrepresentations, I'm going to add that you have selective memory. I repeatedly told that Joseph Smith wasn't God's sock puppet and directly answered all your other non-sense questions at least two or more times.


And it is the same dodge. You create arguments no one is making and hope it will distract from the real questions you can't answer.

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 Post subject: Re: Kinderhook vs the Papyri
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:26 am 
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Themis wrote:
Tobin wrote:
Not quite. In addition to your dissembling and misrepresentations, I'm going to add that you have selective memory. I repeatedly told that Joseph Smith wasn't God's sock puppet and directly answered all your other non-sense questions at least two or more times.
And it is the same dodge. You create arguments no one is making and hope it will distract from the real questions you can't answer.
It isn't a dodge. It directly challenges the premise upon which many of your questions are based. You fail again and again to see that your "questions" are nothing more than the assertion that Joseph Smith was God's sock puppet. And I pointed that out to you repeatedly.


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 Post subject: Re: Kinderhook vs the Papyri
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:35 am 
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Tobin wrote:
It isn't a dodge. It directly challenges the premise upon which many of your questions are based. You fail again and again to see that your "questions" are nothing more than the assertion that Joseph Smith was God's sock puppet. And I pointed that out to you repeatedly.


It is. No one is suggesting Joseph is God's sock puppet. It is a dodge of the real questions of how Joseph could be so stupid to make things up when he is supposed to be accessing God all the time. It doesn't answer how God is going to go along with this mess that would be an obvious mistake with very negative consequences. Wouldn't God know what might happen to member's later on when you are creating evidence against your own claims. These are some obvious problems with the Catalyst theory. A theory mind you that is totally made up without any evidence at all other then a desperate need to have something. It doesn't answer the problems with the explanations that are tailor made for the Egyptian facsimiles, but then your responses may have said they should be taken out. At least now some of the Book of Abraham is gone.

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 Post subject: Re: Kinderhook vs the Papyri
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:47 am 
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Themis wrote:
Tobin wrote:
It isn't a dodge. It directly challenges the premise upon which many of your questions are based. You fail again and again to see that your "questions" are nothing more than the assertion that Joseph Smith was God's sock puppet. And I pointed that out to you repeatedly.
It is. No one is suggesting Joseph is God's sock puppet. It is a dodge of the real questions of how Joseph could be so stupid to make things up when he is supposed to be accessing God all the time. It doesn't answer how God is going to go along with this mess that would be an obvious mistake with very negative consequences. Wouldn't God know what might happen to member's later on when you are creating evidence against your own claims. These are some obvious problems with the Catalyst theory. A theory mind you that is totally made up without any evidence at all other then a desperate need to have something. It doesn't answer the problems with the explanations that are tailor made for the Egyptian facsimiles, but then your responses may have said they should be taken out. At least now some of the Book of Abraham is gone.
Actually, you are making exactly the assertion that Joseph Smith was (or should have been) God's sock puppet and are simply incapable of acknowledging that is EXACTLY what you are doing. Your assertion is Joseph Smith must have done exactly what God wanted him to do, perfectly and without error. Otherwise, how could he have been so stupid as to be human and fallible?

Your next assertion that God should have cleared this up so those that were members of the Church wouldn't struggle with this and possibly lose their testimony in the false idea the Joseph Smith was God's sock puppet and could never make a mistake and magically knew Egyptian Hieroglyphics. I personally don't think God is very concerned about this. If you (and other members) were doing what God asked instead of what they felt and spoke with him directly, then you (and those members) wouldn't have a struggle because they would know God and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God despite his human failings.


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 Post subject: Re: Kinderhook vs the Papyri
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:02 am 
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Tobin wrote:
Actually, you are making exactly the assertion that Joseph Smith was (or should have been) God's sock puppet and are simply incapable of acknowledging that is EXACTLY what you are doing. Your assertion is Joseph Smith must have done exactly what God wanted him to do, perfectly and without error. Otherwise, how could he have been so stupid as to be human and fallible?


Another straw-man. I am wondering why Joseph would make things up even though he is in contact with God all the time. You have avoided this question again and again. He would have to be very stupid to not know he can't read Egyptian and think he can get it right, and then think not to ask God about it. Joseph just didn't make up a line about it, but went to great lengths over years about it being Abraham's record. We both know it has never been about Joseph having to be perfect.

Quote:
Your next assertion that God should have cleared this up so those that were members of the Church wouldn't struggle with this and possibly lose their testimony in the false idea the Joseph Smith was God's sock puppet and could never make a mistake and magically knew Egyptian Hieroglyphics. I personally don't think God is very concerned about this. If you (and other members) were doing what God asked instead of what they felt and spoke with him directly, then you (and those members) wouldn't have a struggle because they would know God and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God despite his human failings.


Of course you won't think God is very concerned with this. You need this since it is all you have. I see major problems with God not correcting Joseph, and when he doesn't he is involved in deception that will lead people to reasonably conclude the Book of Abraham is made up. The responsibility is now on God for being an idiot. If God can communicate so much detailed information to Joseph he could also communicate something of vital importance as this. You can't have that since you need something.

The catalyst theory has Joseph and God being the dumb and dumber.

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 Post subject: Re: Kinderhook vs the Papyri
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:04 am 
Tobin wrote:
Your next assertion that God should have cleared this up so those that were members of the Church wouldn't struggle with this and possibly lose their testimony in the false idea the Joseph Smith was God's sock puppet and could never make a mistake and magically knew Egyptian Hieroglyphics. I personally don't think God is very concerned about this. If you (and other members) were doing what God asked instead of what they felt and spoke with him directly, then you (and those members) wouldn't have a struggle because they would know God and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God despite his human failings.


Classic apologetics. When Joseph Smith is caught in a lie about The Book of Abrham translation, it's our fault if we don't believe. Also apparently God just doesn't care that he created a situation where his prophet comes off looking like a fraud. Really it's one thing to have faith in the abcense of evidence, and quite another to have faith inspite of the evidence.


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 Post subject: Re: Kinderhook vs the Papyri
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:11 am 
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Stormy Waters wrote:
Tobin wrote:
Your next assertion that God should have cleared this up so those that were members of the Church wouldn't struggle with this and possibly lose their testimony in the false idea the Joseph Smith was God's sock puppet and could never make a mistake and magically knew Egyptian Hieroglyphics. I personally don't think God is very concerned about this. If you (and other members) were doing what God asked instead of what they felt and spoke with him directly, then you (and those members) wouldn't have a struggle because they would know God and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God despite his human failings.


Classic apologetics. When Joseph Smith is caught in a lie about The Book of Abrham translation, it's our fault if we don't believe. Also apparently God just doesn't care that he created a situation where his prophet comes off looking like a fraud. Really it's one thing to have faith in the abcense of evidence, and quite another to have faith inspite of the evidence.


See tobin. Someone understands the issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Kinderhook vs the Papyri
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:13 am 
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Tobin,


If God revealed the Book of Abraham independently of the papyrus, then

a) ...what purpose did the papyrus serve that, say, a rock or a tree or a blot of mustard could not?

b) ...why was Joseph Smith so convinced that he was translating from the papyrus?

c) ...who is the King in Facsimile 3?


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 Post subject: Re: Kinderhook vs the Papyri
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:14 am 
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Also: I requested some information from God, and God revealed to me through prayer that Joseph Smith was a liar and a charlatan who never saw or spoke with Jesus Christ at any point in time.

Now what?


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 Post subject: Re: Kinderhook vs the Papyri
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:24 am 
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Stormy Waters wrote:
Also apparently God just doesn't care that he created a situation where his prophet comes off looking like a fraud.


This goes to my example of person A having a Egyptian document and for some reason is sure it is a record of Abraham. He knows he can't read Egyptian but is sure anyways and then takes it to person B who he knows can read Egyptian. He asks person B to translate this document he knows is about Abraham. Is it likely person B who may actuality know of a record of Abraham is going to give person A a record of Abraham with out any explanations that they(person A) are wrong about their document and that they know of another record of Abraham they can have if they wish.

Quote:
Really it's one thing to have faith in the abcense of evidence, and quite another to have faith inspite of the evidence.


This gets to the issue of why many members really leave.

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 Post subject: Re: Kinderhook vs the Papyri
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:47 am 
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Samantabhadra wrote:
Also: I requested some information from God, and God revealed to me through prayer that Joseph Smith was a liar and a charlatan who never saw or spoke with Jesus Christ at any point in time.

Now what?


You clearly didn't get through to the panda. Sorry, that was blasphemous of me: I should have said The Panda.

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 Post subject: Re: Kinderhook vs the Papyri
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:38 pm 
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Samantabhadra wrote:
c) ...who is the King in Facsimile 3?

You shouldn't have asked this. It is Paul's task.

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 Post subject: Re: Kinderhook vs the Papyri
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:19 pm 
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Samantabhadra wrote:
Also: I requested some information from God, and God revealed to me through prayer that Joseph Smith was a liar and a charlatan who never saw or spoke with Jesus Christ at any point in time.

Now what?



Well my TBM friends would say that you did not pray hard enough or that you are a sinner and need to repent and then you will get the "correct" answer. Bottom line is if things don't go the way they say they should, it is your fault.

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 Post subject: Re: Kinderhook vs the Papyri
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:03 pm 
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Themis wrote:
Tobin wrote:
Actually, you are making exactly the assertion that Joseph Smith was (or should have been) God's sock puppet and are simply incapable of acknowledging that is EXACTLY what you are doing. Your assertion is Joseph Smith must have done exactly what God wanted him to do, perfectly and without error. Otherwise, how could he have been so stupid as to be human and fallible?
Another straw-man. I am wondering why Joseph would make things up even though he is in contact with God all the time. You have avoided this question again and again. He would have to be very stupid to not know he can't read Egyptian and think he can get it right, and then think not to ask God about it. Joseph just didn't make up a line about it, but went to great lengths over years about it being Abraham's record. We both know it has never been about Joseph having to be perfect.

Ok, see the underline part. That is you stating Joseph Smith was God's sock puppet. I have not avoided the question. I have addressed your premise and you have disregarded it again and again.

Let me explain it again to you. Joseph Smith was a human being. Human beings make mistakes. We have biases, make bad assumptions, and so on. Joseph Smith was as capable as we are at doing that.

Joseph Smith could not read Egyptain Hieroglyphics. What he saw was the original record of Abraham. Now pay attention, Joseph Smith did not think to ask the Lord about the papyri in front of him and simply assumed it was written by Abraham like the Gold Plates had been written by the Nephites.

Now, I'll repeat a few things with you. Joseph Smith, despite your continued annoying assertion otherwise that he was simply God's sock puppet (and therefore God was driving this - Joseph Smith was just along for the ride), was a human being with human failings like bias, lack of knowledge, the ability to make poor assumptions and so forth. The translation of the papyri was not something God had commanded Joseph Smith to translate. This is something he decided he needed to do. Since, again, he wasn't God's sock puppet, he needed to ask the questions and get understanding from God about this. Clearly, there were things he did not fully didn't comprehend. That is understandable because he was a human being, and NOT God's sock puppet, and he had to ask the Lord the questions and obtain the understanding from the Lord himself.

Themis wrote:
Tobin wrote:
Your next assertion that God should have cleared this up so those that were members of the Church wouldn't struggle with this and possibly lose their testimony in the false idea the Joseph Smith was God's sock puppet and could never make a mistake and magically knew Egyptian Hieroglyphics. I personally don't think God is very concerned about this. If you (and other members) were doing what God asked instead of what they felt and spoke with him directly, then you (and those members) wouldn't have a struggle because they would know God and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God despite his human failings.
Of course you won't think God is very concerned with this. You need this since it is all you have. I see major problems with God not correcting Joseph, and when he doesn't he is involved in deception that will lead people to reasonably conclude the Book of Abraham is made up. The responsibility is now on God for being an idiot. If God can communicate so much detailed information to Joseph he could also communicate something of vital importance as this. You can't have that since you need something.

The catalyst theory has Joseph and God being the dumb and dumber.
Let's apply your little theory to you Themis. You don't believe in God (which is clearly false). By your admission, God is deceiving you because even though he exists, he's not showing himself to you. According to you, it is God's job to come down right now and set you right. You are being completely absurd (and yes, I realize you have no idea how absurd you are being).


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 Post subject: Re: Kinderhook vs the Papyri
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:05 pm 
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Stormy Waters wrote:
Tobin wrote:
Your next assertion that God should have cleared this up so those that were members of the Church wouldn't struggle with this and possibly lose their testimony in the false idea the Joseph Smith was God's sock puppet and could never make a mistake and magically knew Egyptian Hieroglyphics. I personally don't think God is very concerned about this. If you (and other members) were doing what God asked instead of what they felt and spoke with him directly, then you (and those members) wouldn't have a struggle because they would know God and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God despite his human failings.
Classic apologetics. When Joseph Smith is caught in a lie about The Book of Abrham translation, it's our fault if we don't believe. Also apparently God just doesn't care that he created a situation where his prophet comes off looking like a fraud. Really it's one thing to have faith in the abcense of evidence, and quite another to have faith inspite of the evidence.
The evidence is God himself telling you that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. You don't simply assume that Joseph Smith was telling the truth (or was anything other than a fraud) without that. Clearly you haven't read a thing I've said in this thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Kinderhook vs the Papyri
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:08 pm 
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Samantabhadra wrote:
Tobin,
If God revealed the Book of Abraham independently of the papyrus, then
a) ...what purpose did the papyrus serve that, say, a rock or a tree or a blot of mustard could not?
It was the impetus that sparked Joseph Smith interest.
Samantabhadra wrote:
b) ...why was Joseph Smith so convinced that he was translating from the papyrus?
Because the Lord revealed Abraham's original writings and Joseph Smith simply assumed that since the papyri were ancient writings (like the Gold Plates), that what was revealed was actually contained in them.
Samantabhadra wrote:
c) ...who is the King in Facsimile 3?
The Facsimiles are Egyptian. Joseph Smith's speculations are wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Kinderhook vs the Papyri
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:11 pm 
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Samantabhadra wrote:
Also: I requested some information from God, and God revealed to me through prayer that Joseph Smith was a liar and a charlatan who never saw or spoke with Jesus Christ at any point in time. Now what?
Nothing at this time. Either you, or I am, a liar before God and will be judged for that. I'm comfortable with my position (as I am sure you are). We'll see what the Lord has to say about it when we are judged of him in the final day.


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 Post subject: Re: Kinderhook vs the Papyri
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:21 pm 
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Tobin wrote:
I've answered this question a dozen times on this forum. I can't help it if you refuse to grasp it. Joseph Smith translated by the gift and power of God, not by knowing the language or the characters.

thews wrote:
You've only responded to my question multiple times without answering it to paint the ruse that you have acknowledged historical fact. This is what I want you to comment on specifically:
Quote:
"... with W. W. Phelps and Oliver Cowdery as scribes, I commence the translation of some of the characters or hieroglyphics, and much to our joy found that one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham, another the writings of Joseph of Egypt, etc. - a more full account of which will appear in its place, as I proceed to examine or unfold them. Truly we can say, the Lord is beginning to reveal the abundance of peace and truth." (History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 236).


Tobin wrote:
Again, the same answer. You can ask me the same question a million times. It will remain the same answer. It won't change the millionth and one time you ask.

And again you respond with the same dodge that you've "answered" the question when you haven't acknowledged what Joseph Smith said.

Joseph Smith: I commence the translation of some of the characters or hieroglyphics
Tobin: Joseph Smith translated by the gift and power of God, not by knowing the language or the characters

Do you see the contradiction in your supposed "answer" (response) to what Joseph Smith said?

As is the norm in Mormon apologetics, once you've painted yourself in a corner and hit the wall in your cognitive dissonance where you simply cannot acknowledge the facts, you play the three-card Monte game in dodging the question. Let me make it simple for you to understand what you fail to acknowledge in your response:

1) Joseph Smith didn't claim to rely solely on the gift and power of God to write the Book of Abraham.
2) Joseph Smith claimed to "translate" the hieroglyphics ("translate" being the operative word).
3) You claim Joseph Smith didn't translate the papyri, contradicting what Joseph Smith said.

If your "answer" is a constant stream of parrot-speak that claims to override what Joseph Smith said, it doesn't negate the fact that you're in denial regarding the facts. One more time:

Question to Tobin: What is your take on what Joseph Smith said regarding "translating" the papyri written by the hand of Abraham?

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