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 Post subject: Dr. Hamblin gives deeper insight into the workings of the MI
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:52 am 
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Bill Hamblin, in his blog, has graced us all with a very interesting entry about the inner workings of FARMS/MI. He describes how and why it was acquired/absorbed by BYU--he actually describes it as akin to a "hostile takeover"--and how and why Dr. Bradford achieved ascendancy therein, among many other things.

It almost amounts to a "man-behind-the-curtain" moment. If you're at all interested in the DCP ousting dust-up, I highly recommend reading it:

What the Maxwell Institute controversy is really about

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 Post subject: Re: Dr. Hamblin gives deeper insight into the workings of th
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:03 am 
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The Maxwell Institute (MI) controversy is not–or at least shouldn’t be–a personal feud. It is, rather, a clash about the fundamental vision for the future of the MI. Those who try to turn it into a feud of “good people” verse “bad people”–as the apostates and anti-Mormons are gleefully doing–are doing a disservice to the important issues at stake here.


Bill Hamblin you are pathetic.

All this talk about cowardice and suppression of views is quite amusing coming from a lynch mob that hides out on a forum that "instabans" anyone who dares share a different perspective. By merely pointing out that all you're hearing so far is one side, this results in banning. Numerous people have been banned for daring to agree with Bradford and the Church, even LDS folks like Mike Reed. You should just go ahead and rename that forum, the Dan Peterson Support Group because that's all it has become.

As far as your dishonest claim above, the only people making one side "bad" in this debacle is the cult following of Dan Peterson which consists of nothing more than loyalist apologists. There are no apostates "gleefully" turning this into a "personal fued" nor are they arbitrarily deciding who is "good" or "bad."

The most anyone here has said that could possibly be interpreted that way is a few references to the karma that came Dan's way, given his past history of trying to suppress information from the critics as well as his efforts to damage the name of scholars like Michael Quinn and Robert Ritner. Given his despicable history of low-blows, he is in no position to expect a lot of sympathy from anyone here. I've pointed out that his email proved he once lied to us all when he insisted he didn't get paid to do apologetics. But that's it. No one here is trying to "silence" Daniel Peterson. In fact, I don't know what some critics would do without him.

By contrast, the dead heads sucking up to you and your buddy Dan over at MAD are calling for Bradford's head without reservation. The only cool head over there seems to be Bob Crockett. Just take these few examples of the kind of hateful vitriol that has resulted from the mob you're leading:

why me - "Mr. Bradford needs to be replaced because his conduct in this matter is not the conduct that a temple recommend holder should be engaged in. What is sad about all this is that he betrayed the trust of someone showing a lack of empathy and emotional understanding as one who went about hurting someone by his conduct. This is not okay for a temple recommend holder to do nor someone who should be in charge of a church sponsored orgainization."

selek1 - "My prayers and wishes also to the Maxwell Insitute as Gerald Bradford takes a razor to its throat."

"With a lawyer even half-awake, Dan could destroy both Bradford and the Institute"

The target of our ire is Bradford"

"Firing someone by email is tasteless and cowardly. Looking the other way while criminal acts are commited (even if you disagree with the target) is unconscionable."

Log - I cannot help but think this is extraordinarily bad news. Apostasy in high places, even.

Scott Lloyd - Alma 62:44

Alter idem - Bradford's actions were spinless!

William Schryver - those who are attempting to silence LDS apologetics will be thwarted in their undertaking, and finally recognized for who and what they really are.


And all of these judgments have been passed after hearing only one side of the story.

So Bill, you're the ring-leader of this mob, fueling their hatred and now you want to pretend you have nothing to do with it. As if all this emotion comes from the "apostates" who are passing judgment? When we say we support Bradford, we are saying we support his vision for the Institute. Not because we want Dan Peterson "silenced," but because it is nice to know we have been vindicated. For years we've been telling you and Dan that FARMS engaged in pseudo-scholarship and relies too much on ad hominem. Dan's removal proves it, as does your idiotic ranting. But please, keep it up. I'm sure you're soon to realize just how tiny your support group really is when compared to the Church as a whole. Dan has been needing a serving of humble pie for years, and his pedantic response gave people more reason to view him in a negative light. He acted like a spoiled child who didn't like having one of his favorite toys taken away from him.


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 Post subject: Re: Dr. Hamblin gives deeper insight into the workings of th
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:19 am 
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So, why am I so vehemently opposed to Bradford’s dismissal of Dan and proposed change of direction for the Mormon Studies Review? Here we come to the crux of the problem. If the University does not want to sponsor apologetics, why in the world did it force FARMS to become part of the University?


Uh, because you were all proving to be an embarrassment for the Church and they had hoped that by taking it over, that they could change that aggressive direction in a gradual way?

I know you, Dan and some of the dead-heads at MAD like to invoke Maxwell's so-called statement (according to Dan) that there be "no more uncontested slam dunks." You seem to think this statement justifies all the attack pieces you've been engaged in. Well, it doesn't.

By "slam dunk" Maxwell was obviously referring to arguments, not people. What you have done is attack people and ignored their arguments. This is what FARMS has done for YEARS. They did it with JP Holding, they did it with Grant Palmer, they did it with Ed Ashment, etc. The phrase makes no sense anyway, since it concedes the fact that there are arguments by critics that are legitimately defined as "slam dunks." That means they scored already and there is no way you can change that.

Dan is disrespecting the memory of Maxwell by trying to tie him into his paranoia-based agenda, where everyone is a potential wolf in sheep's clothing and he gets to attack anyone who doesn't tow the party line. We all know what this is about. It has nothing to do with following Maxwell's advice. It has everything to do with a misguided fringe that has become so extreme and out of control that it is now led by cult master William Schryver, an uneducated hippie from the canyons who is so whacko that he has decided to emulate Porter Rockwell in every way.

Did it ever occur to you that the Church felt that YOU people are more of a threat? The way you dogmatically insist your apologetic ideas are the only way to go and hand more and more people put their trust in you instead of the LDS leadership..


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 Post subject: Re: Dr. Hamblin gives deeper insight into the workings of th
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:01 am 
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Kevin,

Great posts. I agree wholeheartedly. Dr. Hamblin and the rest of the Ousted Maxwell Institute Danites continue to play the victim card while mounting a group of basement dwelling message board posters to lead an assault on Bradford. Hamblin et al. are absolutely livid because they have lost their forum for publication. Now that this good ole boys publication has dried where is Hamblin going to turn for publication? How is he going to continue to build his name as some sort of pillar in the LDS apologetic community?

Truth is, Hamblin et al. got into the business of apologetics for the reasons of building a name as 'warrior defender of the faith.' Often times, involvement in LDS apologetics serves a selfish purpose, hence why we are seeing the OMIDs so upset. It will be rather strenuous to continue their subculture fame without the publication.

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 Post subject: Re: Dr. Hamblin gives deeper insight into the workings of th
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:35 am 
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Bill-boy Hamblin,

The General Authorities sacked Dan. The firing was all approved.

My weegie board says YOU'RE NEXT! Get ready to clean out your office. I can feel wrath stirring against you. You're toast.

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 Post subject: Re: Dr. Hamblin gives deeper insight into the workings of th
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:08 am 
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Hamblin says:

    1. Those who try to turn it into a feud of "good people" verse "bad people"–as the apostates and anti-Mormons are gleefully doing–are doing a disservice to the important issues at stake here.
    2. Let me be very clear. Gerald Bradford is not a bad person.

But then, Hamblin personally attacks Bradford and his bosses!

    1. I find Bradford to be a less than competent administrator
    2. . . . . disastrous negligence
    3. . . . . absolutely shameful
    4. . . . . fundamental abdication of his responsibility as Director of the MI
    5. And I sincerely believe he is dead wrong
    6. Bradford is fundamentally betraying the tacit agreement the University originally made when it absorbed FARMS
    7. he should not have accepted the position as director of the Institute
    8. This, I believe, is fundamentally immoral
    9. It is fundamentally wrong

Such anger! Such rancor!

:surprised:

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 Post subject: Re: Dr. Hamblin gives deeper insight into the workings of th
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:14 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Dr. Hamblin gives deeper insight into the workings of th
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:33 am 
John Dehlin commented on Facebook about this post:

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"Such a fascinating article. My response to Bill Hamblin (and Daniel Peterson): "What if it’s as simple as this: you guys have failed at doing apologetics in a way that LDS church leadership is comfortable with. Clearly Gerald Bradford didn’t act alone. Clearly general authorities were involved. It’s clear to me that LDS church leadership is uncomfortable with your (and Dr. Peterson’s) brand of apologetics. To blame Bradford for this seems like scapegoating. Unfortunately you can’t criticize LDS church leadership and remain an apologist (ouch!)….but it’s not fair to lay the blame on Bradford either. Not fair at all. Try looking in the mirror."


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 Post subject: Re: Dr. Hamblin gives deeper insight into the workings of th
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:38 am 
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If the exiled apologist start up their own organization they might want to consider calling their new review the "NAMI Expositor".

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 Post subject: Re: Dr. Hamblin gives deeper insight into the workings of th
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:49 am 
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Stormy Waters wrote:
John Dehlin commented on Facebook about this post:

Quote:
"Such a fascinating article. My response to Bill Hamblin (and Daniel Peterson): "What if it’s as simple as this: you guys have failed at doing apologetics in a way that LDS church leadership is comfortable with. Clearly Gerald Bradford didn’t act alone. Clearly general authorities were involved. It’s clear to me that LDS church leadership is uncomfortable with your (and Dr. Peterson’s) brand of apologetics. To blame Bradford for this seems like scapegoating. Unfortunately you can’t criticize LDS church leadership and remain an apologist (ouch!)….but it’s not fair to lay the blame on Bradford either. Not fair at all. Try looking in the mirror."


Spot on.
But spot on can't penetrate a hardened heart.

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 Post subject: Re: Dr. Hamblin gives deeper insight into the workings of th
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:34 am 
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Yet another vindication for Scratch and the critics. Amazing to see the pure hardball politics of "Babylon" that have been at work at the Lard's University all this time. These folks are every bit as tenaciously political and prone to forming divisive factions as anyone outside the church, yet they cover their naked ambition and personal agendas in the cloak of saintly robes, pretending to be above all of it and castigating folks such as Scratch who have repeatedly shined a light on their activities. Now we have confirmation from Hamblin that the critics' view of what has been happening at FARMS was spot-on. In their efforts to take down Bradford, DCP and Hamblin have been forced to concede that Scratch was right all along (at least concerning the overall atmosphere and general goings-on behind the scenes at FARMS/MI, if not in every single particular detail, although it is clear his track record is far better than DCP had ever acknowledged prior to his unceremonious sacking). DCP and Hamblin are acting like cornered cats. Get out your popcorn; the show is just beginning.

Edited to add: I didn't see before I posted this the thread that beastie had started, essentially making the same point: that the apologists have been lying all these years and deliberately and knowingly stating falsehoods with respect to Scratch's intel. See the thread on it over here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24477

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Last edited by Equality on Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dr. Hamblin gives deeper insight into the workings of th
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:35 am 
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It seems to me that Hamblin is tiptoeing around some facts that need to be brought to light.

First, this:

Hamblin wrote:
So, why am I so vehemently opposed to Bradford’s dismissal of Dan and proposed change of direction for the Mormon Studies Review? Here we come to the crux of the problem. If the University does not want to sponsor apologetics, why in the world did it force FARMS to become part of the University?

I should explain that when the University first approached FARMS requesting that they join the University it was in the form of a hostile takeover. I was on the Board of FARMS at the time, and the Board initially voted unanimously to reject the proposal. Most of the Board members at the time were BYU faculty, and subsequently all sorts of pressure was exerted by the University to force the members of Board to accept the proposal. When, after months of negotiations the Board of FARMS finally agreed to the proposed takeover, I still voted against the merger and resigned from the Board in protest. I believed at the time–and it is clear that subsequent events have proved me correct–that such a merger would be bad for both FARMS and the University. I love BYU, and love teaching here. But if FARMS became part of the University it would begin to be perceived as part of the Church, and what it said would then be viewed as somehow “official.” This would of course lead to correlation. No one in the original FARMS group wanted to speak for the Church. We wanted to engage in standard academic discourse, writing books, articles and reviews. If we were right in our interpretations, great. If we were wrong in our interpretations, that would be our personal problem. It would have nothing to do with anything “official” for the Church.

The University at the time gave all sorts of assurances that they wanted FARMS to continue doing exactly what it was doing. And it was perfectly clear to the University what they were getting by absorbing FARMS: we were publishing scholarly books and articles on the Book of Mormon and other LDS scriptures, and we were publishing responses to anti-Mormon claims–that is, apologetics. Dan had been publishing the Review for years when the University absorbed FARMS. It was perfectly obvious what the Review was all about. So I ask again: If the University did not want to sponsor apologetics, why in the world did it force FARMS to become part of the University? (I believe I actually know why they did it, and their motives had absolutely nothing to do with FARMS or its scholarship; but that is another story.)


Well, I believe I "know" too. It's pretty simply, really: around the time that FARMS was invited to formally join BYU, they were in the midst of a massive fundraiser that aimed to draw in something like 7 million dollars. (See my old thread "Building the FARMS Ziggurat" for background on this.) With that kind of money changing hands, you can bet that the Church--and by extension, BYU--would want to exert some control over this. It's one thing for these rogue apologists to contradict doctrine and trash TR-holding members in the pages of the Review; but when they are also doing this by soliciting massive donations from wealthy Latter-day Saints, you better believe that the Church is going to want to be part of the discussions, as it were. That's why the FARMS board was dissolved; that's why FARMS was brought into the administrative structure of BYU: it's about control, and it's about money, and this is precisely the reason why Hamblin won't go into details. It's why DCP used donations as his main counterargument in his email response to Bradford.

The Mopologists on MDD are asking dumb questions like, "Why would BYU invite FARMS to join the university if they didn't want the apologists to keep writing hit pieces?" The answer is obvious: they wanted tighter control over what had become a multi-million dollar operation. The fact that there was a lot of ad hominem attack and viciousness in the Review was, at the time, I'm sure, a subsidiary issue. Church/BYU admin may have approved of that sort of thing at the time, or (as may very well be the case) they may have assumed that they could put a damper on the more vicious stuff by pulling FARMS into the university. I.e., the brought them on board precisely so that they *could* stifle the nastiness. If you have a troublesome teenager who's causing havok out in the town, you don't let him continue to run ramapant. You ground him for a month so that you can keep a closer eye on him.

The other thing I found weird is that Hamblin is basically attacking not only Bradford, but also Morgan Davis and Kristian Heal. Perhaps what's most laughable about Hamblin's rant is that he's saying, in effect, that he doesn't like legitimate scholarship because it's "stodgy" and "boring." LOL! Uh, yeah, Prof. H.: we always knew that you preferred juvenile potty humor to cutting-edge academic work.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:09 pm 
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The solution then is, especially if "classic FARMS" people still have any control of some funding, to recreate the old organization. The problem is that, as noted by Hamblin's blog, is many of the people who could do this are employed by BYU and might therefore be subject to pressure again.

Therefore, a better solution might be to find someone loyal to front and control the new organization but will allow them editorial control. Always difficult as people can be co-opted and BYU could still pressure those who contribute.

Therefore, the ULTIMATE solution is to stop working for BYU or become even smaller potatoes and just post personal blogs and threads to obscure discussion boards.

John Dehlin has shown bravery and struck out on his own. Perhaps it would be best for "classic FARMS" to do the same. Always risky when employment is involved but it's how things get started.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:12 pm 
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So, bc, do you acknowledge that the emails were real? Have you apologized to Scratch yet? Do you feel betrayed by the lying liar Peterson? Do you feel like a dupe for defending him?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:43 pm 
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Equality wrote:
So, bc, do you acknowledge that the emails were real? Have you apologized to Scratch yet? Do you feel betrayed by the lying liar Peterson? Do you feel like a dupe for defending him?


Yeah, bcspace. Dr. Scratch was right all this time and he really does have an informant.

Now, consider king Theoden (DCP) defending Helms Deep -- and the wall comes crashing down when DCP gets canned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnhj68Jt2sg

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:06 pm 
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Quote:
So, bc, do you acknowledge that the emails were real?


No. I haven't seen verification yet, not enough to satisfy true journalistic standards. The Peggy Fletcher Stack article in the Salt Lake City referred to some emails with similar wording is a good indication that they might be.

Quote:
Have you apologized to Scratch yet?


Why? Stratch claimed the emails were "alleged". I merely agreed.

Quote:
Do you feel betrayed by the lying liar Peterson?


What goes on at MI is usually mostly meaningless to me. However, the problem is now that Dehlin has gained more public notoriety, those of us who might actually be able to convince the powers that be to excommunicate him have our work cut out for us. That he's being protected by a GA helps and we can probably now figure out who that is and apply the appropriate pressure.

The Church is keeping a low low profile on these kinds of things because of the Romney campaign and perhaps nothing will be able to be done until it and/or his presidency are over. As I've said before, it's wheat with the tares and the Church's internal critics have realized this and declared open season on the Church. However, there is pressure building to do something soon......

What should have been done with Dehlin is to merely to answer him point by point with the answers already provided by FAIR and could have been provided in the future. Perhaps someone could have gone toe to toe with him in a local debate.

I've warned these people before and they didn't listen. Of course my self-imposed anonymity doesn't help me be convincing but I think my words and been proven time and time again, enough to show that I know what I am talking about.

Quote:
Do you feel like a dupe for defending him?


When did I defend him?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:07 pm 
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Quote:
Now, consider king Theoden (DCP) defending Helms Deep -- and the wall comes crashing down when DCP gets canned.


Saruman lost that battle as I recall......

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:07 pm 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
Uh, yeah, Prof. H.: we always knew that you preferred juvenile potty humor to cutting-edge academic work.


This is a gem:

"Quit farting around and give a specific example." (Bill Hamblin)

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58117-the-apostate-myth-of-mormon-apologetics/#entry1209135309

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:17 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:20 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:
Uh, yeah, Prof. H.: we always knew that you preferred juvenile potty humor to cutting-edge academic work.


This is a gem:

"Quit farting around and give a specific example." (Bill Hamblin)

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58117-the-apostate-myth-of-mormon-apologetics/#entry1209135309

Paul O


And when examples were given, they were deleted.


bcspace, there is no more "alleged" about the emails. Dan has already conceded that they were legit. Scratch was right all along.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:24 pm 
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Quote:
bcspace, there is no more "alleged" about the emails. Dan has already conceded that they were legit. Scratch was right all along.


If true, then I have no more problem. I do have a problem with making hay as if they were legit before verification of such.

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Last edited by bcspace on Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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