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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:26 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
No.


So, when David Whitmer made this claim of having heard the spoken words of God Himself, it is your belief that he was lying?

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:41 pm 
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I'm not sure. He may have been telling the truth on all accounts. If you are referring to this quote: "If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by His own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me by His own voice from the heavens, and told me to separate myself from among the Latter-Day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so should it be done unto them."

Many of the Saints then were wrong for their overzealous persecution of Whitmer, and instead of going through the proper channels for their complaint, they threatened him with violence, which was wrong. So, perhaps the Lord really did speak to him again with a revelation to protect him. It is very believable to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:42 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
I'm not sure. He may have been telling the truth on all accounts. If you are referring to this quote: "If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by His own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me by His own voice from the heavens, and told me to separate myself from among the Latter-Day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so should it be done unto them."

Many of the Saints then were wrong for their overzealous persecution of Whitmer, and instead of going through the proper channels for their complaint, they threatened him with violence, which was wrong. So, perhaps the Lord really did speak to him again with a revelation to protect him. It is very believable to me.


It's nice that you were able to find a glib assertion in the FAIR wiki, but maybe you should actually read what David Whitmer wrote in context.

An Address to All Believers in Christ

(It's easier to read here: http://www.greaterthings.com/Topical/DavidWhitmer.htm)

David Whitmer was very explicit about the circumstances of hearing God's own voice to tell him to separate himself from the Latter-day Saints. Joseph Smith became a false prophet, the Church was teaching false doctrines of men, and David Whitmer was called by God to preach the pure gospel, unadulterated (pun intended) with Joseph Smith's post-Book of Mormon ideas. David Whitmer started his own church---the Church of Christ---in response to the call that he received from the voice of God.

In the introduction to "An Address to All Believers in Christ," David Whitmer says of the LDS/Brighamite Church:

They have departed in a great measure from the faith of the Church of Christ as it was first established , by heeding revelations given through Joseph Smith, who, after being called of God to translate his sacred word--the Book of Mormon--drifted into many errors and gave many revelations to introduce doctrines, ordinances and offices in the church, which are in conflict with Christ's teachings.

Chapter 2 of this pamphlet is where the quote to which you referred is found. Here it is in context:

Then let no man judge hastily as to my authority, lest he judge wrongly and continue in error; but go to God in prayer and fasting, and find out the truth, for the Holy Ghost will guide you into all truth. If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to "separate myself from among the Latter Day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, should it be done unto them." In the spring of 1838, the heads of the church and many of the members had gone deep into error and blindness. I had been striving with them for a long time to show them the errors into which they were drifting, and for my labors I received only persecutions. In June, 1838, at Far West, Mo., a secret organization was formed, Doctor Avard being put in as the leader of the band; a certain oath was to be administered to all the brethern to bind them to support the heads of the church in everything they should teach. All who refused to take this oath were considered dissenters from the church, and certain things were to be done concerning these dissenters, by Dr. Avard's secret band. I make no farther statements now; but suffice it to say that my persecutions, for trying to show them their errors, became of such a nature that I had to leave the Latter Day Saints; and, as I rode on horseback out of Far West, in June, 1838, the voice of God from heaven spake to me as I have stated above. I was called out to hold the authority which God gave to me.

It is very clear that Whitmer is not just saying he was told to physically go away. Whitmer says that he was told by God to leave the Latter-day Saints and start his own church because Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet. That is his explanation given to the RLDS as well as the LDS:

Many of the Reorganized Church have wondered why I have stood apart from them. Brethren, I here will tell you why. God commanded me by his own voice to stand apart from you. Many of you think that I have desire to lead -- to lead a church that believe as I do. I have no such desire. A one-man leader to the church is not the teachings of Christ. After Brother Joseph was killed, many came to me and importuned me to come out and be their leader; but I refused. With these statements, so you will understand me, I will proceed to show you how the heads of the church went into one error after another. I followed them into many errors in doctrine, which the Lord has since shown me, and which errors I have confessed and repented of, and will speak of in this pamphlet.
.................
Concerning the question of my authority to administer in the ordinances of the Church of Christ; I have this to say; As I have stated, I was called out to hold the authority that God gave to me. I am not judging as to whose authority was good, or whose authority was not good. I am not judging as to any man's authority now to act in the church he is in, he has authority to act in the church he is in: but the Lord has made it known to me that no man has authority to act in "the Church of Christ," without being adopted therein according to the gospel of Christ.

Speaking of the Church of Christ (Joseph Smith's original church) being organized on April 6, 1830, David Whitmer says in Chapter 4 that:

I do not consider that the church was any more organized or established in the eyes of God on that day than it was previous to that day. I consider that on that day the first error was introduced into the Church of Christ, and that error was Brother Joseph being ordained as "Prophet Seer and Revelator" to the church.
.........
I want the brethren to understand me concerning this error of ordaining Brother Joseph to that office on April 6, 1830. Not at all do I mean to say that I believe the church was then rejected of God. What occured on that day was this: One of the elders of the church (Joseph) was led into a grievous error; and the members acquiesced in it. In time it proved to be a most grievous error, being the cause of the trouble which afterwards befel the people of God. They put their trust in Brother Joseph and received his revelations as if from God's own mouth. (Jer. xvii:5) "Thus saith the Lord: cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm; and whose heart departeth from the Lord." This has been the great curse of the work of God in these last days. Nearly all of the church have continued to heed the words of men as if from God's own mouth -- following man into one error in doctrine after another -- from year to year -- even on down into the doctrine of polygamy.

And there is also this trenchant insight about how what is now known as D&C 132 contradicts the Book of Mormon:

I desire to say a few words especially to the Latter Day Saints who believe in the doctrine of polygamy. Why it is that you can put your trust in a man, and believe a revelation of his that contradicts the Word of God in the Book of Mormon, is very strange indeed. The revelation on polygamy begins thus: "Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand, to know wherein I the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines: * * * I will answer thee as touching this matter." The Book of Mormon says (Jacob ii: 6): "David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was ABOMINABLE before me, saith the Lord." Then David and Solomon's polygamy was a great sin and an abomination before God. Joseph Smith's revelation says that it was NOT a sin, for it says that God JUSTIFIED David and Solomon in it!

Anyway, gdemetz, instead of taking an out-of-context snippet quoted by LDS apologists, maybe you could read David Whitmer's pamphlet----he goes on in great detail about the many ways in which Joseph Smith and the churches claiming to follow him (LDS and RLDS) were in error.

So, given that you believe David Whitmer's statements about God telling him the Book of Mormon is true, do you also believe his statement that God called him and gave him authority to start a new church because Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet?

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:58 pm 
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I quoted specifically what He actually stated that God revealed to him, and that was to separate himself from the saints. The fact that he went into apostasy and stated a lot of other false teachings WHICH WERE NOT REVEALED TO HIM BY GOD was the reason that the saints wanted to chasten him in the first place!


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:15 am 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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gdemetz wrote:
I quoted specifically what He actually stated that God revealed to him, and that was to separate himself from the saints. The fact that he went into apostasy and stated a lot of other false teachings WHICH WERE NOT REVEALED TO HIM BY GOD was the reason that the saints wanted to chasten him in the first place!


It sure is strange that David Whitmer said that God told him that it was the Latter-day Saints who were in apostasy, and that their teachings were false.

So how do we evaluate when David Whitmer was a credible witness about what God told him, and when he is not a credible witness about what God told him? (I mean some basis other than the foregone conclusion that the Church is true!!!)

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:19 am 
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Darth, it is becoming increasingly apparent that the witnesses were only telling the truth and reflecting Gods words when what they said agrees with the current Church's stance in doctrine and teachings. Well, the current stance as determined by gdemetz.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:07 am 
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Darth J wrote:

It sure is strange that David Whitmer said that God told him that it was the Latter-day Saints who were in apostasy, and that their teachings were false.

So how do we evaluate when David Whitmer was a credible witness about what God told him, and when he is not a credible witness about what God told him? (I mean some basis other than the foregone conclusion that the Church is true!!!)


It is not just the "faithful" that accept the 3 & 8 Book of Mormon witnesses and the Book of Mormon translations witnesses as telling the truth, it is also the Smith alone theorists. The Smith alone argument argument assumes that due to lapse of time of 20 years the memory of spalding witnesses is unreliable and therefore the Book of Mormon witnesses to the translation supercedes the Spalding witnesses ..as the Book of Mormon witnesses' recall of events is much closer in time to the events. According to Smith alone theorists, since the Book of Mormon witnesses to the translation say no other material was present when Smith and Cowdery worked together on the Book of Mormon then it follows no Spalding material would have been present. And that is the essential Smith alone argument against the Spalding theory.

Gdemetz, would like to see your response to Darth's question:

"So how do we evaluate when David Whitmer was a credible witness about what God told him, and when he is not a credible witness about what God told him? (I mean some basis other than the foregone conclusion that the Church is true!!!)"


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:40 pm 
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Darth you are misquoting Whitmer. He stated his own opinions about how the church had apostasized after the alleged quote from God.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:51 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
Darth you are misquoting Whitmer. He stated his own opinions about how the church had apostasized after the alleged quote from God.


No, I'm not.

http://www.greaterthings.com/Topical/Da ... tm#Chapter 3

I make no farther statements now; but suffice it to say that my persecutions, for trying to show them their errors, became of such a nature that I had to leave the Latter Day Saints; and, as I rode on horseback out of Far West, in June, 1838, the voice of God from heaven spake to me as I have stated above. I was called out to hold the authority which God gave to me.

And why is it an "alleged" quote from God now? You were recently quite content with the FAIR wiki response that God really did tell David Whitmer to get away from the Saints. (ETA: Note also that this answer is not only out of context, but factually incorrect. David Whitmer decided to leave before he heard the voice of God telling him to separate himself from the Latter-day Saints. The context makes it clear that God told him to separate himself in a spiritual sense. He had already physically left them. This is also clear from his statement as to why he did not join the RLDS Church.)

Anyway, given that you believe David Whitmer's statements about God telling him the Book of Mormon is true, do you also believe his statement that God called him and gave him authority to start a new church because Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet?

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:31 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Darth you are misquoting Whitmer. He stated his own opinions about how the church had apostasized after the alleged quote from God.

-
Darth J wrote:
...do you also believe his statement that God called him and gave him authority to start a new church because Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet?


Just a few points. Whitmer's opinions are nothing more than Book of Mormon doctrine, that's what he strove to align his beliefs to. As he states in his three different publications and numerous newspaper correspondences, etc., he was troubled by the following as they occurred:

a. When Joe gave a false revelation (Canada copyright selling).

b. When Joe changed published revelations (that David was present for).

c. When Joe removed "Jesus Christ" from the name of the church.

d. When Joe added High Priests.

e. When Joe attached polygamy to salvation (Mormon "exaltation").

Of course there were plenty more that David identified, but these five were in each of his three publications and are sufficient to cause any believer in Mormonism or the Holy Book of Mormon to pause.

Regarding Whitmer starting a "new" church and being given "authority" to do so is inaccurate. Whitmer argued that prior to 1830, there was a church in operation, at least as it was practiced in the NT and the new covenant Book of Mormon Church. "Church" is any group of believers or individuals as rightly taught by most Evangelical Christians.

In D&C 10, Jesus confirmed in the summer of 1828 that his church was already on the earth and the Book of Mormon would "establish" it. The word "establish" throws some people off. As used by Jesus throughout the Book of Mormon, it meant to strengthen that which already existed. David also rightly taught that the invisible church could only be entered one way and was something more between us, Christ, and believers.

Baptism was never into a denomination, only into Christ, which is true and why most protestant churches hold membership and baptism separate. They will respect baptisms performed by other denominations. This criticism was also given by Alexander Campbell to Sidney Rigdon.

Thus, David left Joe, returning to that simple gospel that existed from 1828 to 1830 and avoided the Book of Mormon condemnation of Gentiles who "build up churches to themselves" as Joe did. The tragedy of course is that the sole book designed by God to finish what the Reformers began, became sequestered to a single denomination, much like what happened to the Holy Bible. The same spirit that took hold of Romanism took hold of Joe, the fruit is the same: OT priesthood and high priests, sexual perversion, the baptism of children, improper use of the communion, claiming to the only true church, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:23 pm 
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I disagree. Whitmers opinions were not Book of Mormon doctrine. The Book of Mormon does not teach a man to break away from Christ's church just because he does not understand some of it's teachings or revelations. For example, if he didn't understand polygamy and thought it was contrary to the Book of Mormon teachings, he should have asked Joseph to explain ti to him and he should have prayed about it. He left the church for the same reasons that so many 18-25 year-olds are leaving the church today. They find out stuff about the church that they are not able to digest (babies need milk not meat), and they throw up and leave instead of my suggested path of seeking and prayer. Yes, the Book of Mormon condemns polygamy in Jacobs time just as the church does now. However, if one reads the words of Jacob carefully, then he will notice this statement:

"For if I will, saith the Lord of hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things."


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:28 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
I disagree. Whitmers opinions were not Book of Mormon doctrine...if one reads the words of Jacob carefully, then he will notice this statement:

"For if I will, saith the Lord of hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things."


That says nothing about tying it to salvation/exaltation. You missed the point entirely.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:48 pm 
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I did not miss the point. If one wants to be exalted, then all they need to do, as Christ states, is "keep the commandments." If God commands a person to do it, then the person should do it. If God commands the person not to do it, then he should not do it. It's that simple. Do you think a person today can not be exalted if they don't practice polygamy? Of course, they can be, and I will tell you a little secret. If they are worthy, then they can have at least seven wives in the millennium, and that is polygamy.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:58 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
I did not miss the point. If one wants to be exalted, then all they need to do, as Christ states, is "keep the commandments." If God commands a person to do it, then the person should do it. If God commands the person not to do it, then he should not do it. It's that simple. Do you think a person today can not be exalted if they don't practice polygamy? Of course, they can be, and I will tell you a little secret. If they are worthy, then they can have at least seven wives in the millennium, and that is polygamy.


Like I said, you missed the point entirely. Read DC 132, it's about a different doctrine not found anywhere but there - one witness only. Read it and weep.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:04 pm 
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I have gone over D&C 132 many times, and I think people just read too much into it. We will all have the chance for polygamy at the time the Lord sees fit. The Lord will blame no one for opportunities that they never had. What specific verses there appear to be problematic to you?


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:15 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
I have gone over D&C 132 many times, and I think people just read too much into it. We will all have the chance for polygamy at the time the Lord sees fit. The Lord will blame no one for opportunities that they never had. What specific verses there appear to be problematic to you?


If you will study it out in your mind and pray, the pertinent verses will become self-evident. In the mean time, please note the following two plus witnesses in support of the fact that no church leader can have more than one wife:

Bishops, the husband of one wife -1 Tim. 3:2

Elders, the husband of one wife -Titus 1:6

Deacons, the husband of one wife -1 Tim. 3:12

Any man among you have save it be one wife Jacob 2:27

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:40 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
... and I will tell you a little secret. If they are worthy, then they can have at least seven wives in the millennium, and that is polygamy.


"I don't think we teach. I don't think we stress that."

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:03 am 
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cwald wrote:
gdemetz wrote:
... and I will tell you a little secret. If they are worthy, then they can have at least seven wives in the millennium, and that is polygamy.


"I don't think we teach. I don't think we stress that."



"I don't think it is doctrinal" -GBH

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:41 am 
God

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You guys are overlooking many things! The biggest thing is that you seem to forget that the foundation of Christ's church is prophets and apostles, and the"rock" upon which Christ's church was built was continuing revelation to those prophets and apostles! Hello!? Polygamy was not just a fad that God outgrew. D. Whitmer (and I thought he was dead already) conveniently left out the rest of Jacob's statement in the Book of Mormon which states: "For if I will, saith the Lord of hosts, raise up seed unto me {polygamy}, I will command my people {never mind what the anti's say}, otherwise they shall hearken unto these things" {not to practice it}.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:40 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
You guys are overlooking many things! The biggest thing is that you seem to forget that the foundation of Christ's church is prophets and apostles, and the"rock" upon which Christ's church was built was continuing revelation to those prophets and apostles! Hello!? Polygamy was not just a fad that God outgrew. D. Whitmer (and I thought he was dead already) conveniently left out the rest of Jacob's statement in the Book of Mormon which states: "For if I will, saith the Lord of hosts, raise up seed unto me {polygamy}, I will command my people {never mind what the anti's say}, otherwise they shall hearken unto these things" {not to practice it}.


Do you believe everything Whitmer testified of, or just the parts that agree with what you want to believe?

Do you think Whitmer had the capacity for being mistaken about hearing things from God or could he have been deliberately lying?

When Whitmer stated about the Book of Mormon being translated through a rock placed in a hat rather than by using a pair of magic spectacles, was he telling the truth and if he was why does the Church exclusively propagate the magic spectacle method?

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:07 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
You guys are overlooking many things! ...left out the rest of Jacob's statement in the Book of Mormon which states: "For if I will, saith the Lord of hosts, raise up seed unto me {polygamy}, I will command my people {never mind what the anti's say}, otherwise they shall hearken unto these things" {not to practice it}.


The case for population growth has nothing whatsoever to do with tying it to salvation/mormon exaltion. On that point that was under the Old Testament/Covenant; prove the case for Joe et. al. Where does it say they were commanded to do it for that reason and where are their polygamous children, and why did he marry already married women who already had children, inquiring minds want to know. [Don't forget to address the Biblical mandate that in the New Covenant Church, there were to be no polygamist holding church postitions, thanks!]


Drifting wrote:
When Whitmer stated about the Book of Mormon being translated through a rock placed in a hat rather than by using a pair of magic spectacles, was he telling the truth and if he was why does the Church exclusively propagate the magic spectacle method?


Actually Whitmer was not there when Joe used the U&T before Harris lost the 116 pages. As a punishment, they were taken from him. A better point to make is - If Joe was to be a prophet to a church, he would have retained the use of the U&T like previous Book of Mormon prophets did. But he was not and so he did not retain their use, but failed to heeded the teachings in the Book of Mormon bringing the entire LDS Church under a curse:

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written— (D&C 84:54-57, 1832)

Had they been faithful, the promised additional records would have already come forth using the same people who were experienced at the process. No greater damning evidence is needed aside from these two facts, sorry, but you can still come out into the body of believers like David Whitmer and so many others have done. Come out now before the day is over and night falls!!!

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