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 Post subject: Re: Cross, point, or angel on steeple?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:15 pm 
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Maybe temples should be topped with a depiction of Joseph falling from the Carthage jailhouse window?

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 Post subject: Re: Cross, point, or angel on steeple?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:01 pm 
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Quasimodo wrote:
Maybe temples should be topped with a depiction of Joseph falling from the Carthage jailhouse window?


Just the bullets would do.

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 Post subject: Re: Cross, point, or angel on steeple?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:06 pm 
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Hate to break it to the cross haters but ah, em, I mean, Thus hath the Lord said:

D&C 56: 2
2 And he that will not take up his cross and follow me, and keep my commandments, the same shall not be saved.

D&C 112: 14
14 Now, I say unto you, and what I say unto you, I say unto all the Twelve: Arise and gird up your loins, take up your cross, follow me, and feed my sheep.


Since Jesus is fond of the metaphor I seriously doubt it is the mark of the beast, the Anti-Christ.

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 Post subject: Re: Cross, point, or angel on steeple?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:43 pm 
(Moderator Note) Mike Reed's post can be read here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&p=600412#p600412

It was moved due to temple content. Remember that we have a hard and fast rule regarding temple content. ALL coversations involving specifics regarding temple symbols and dialogue MUST take place in the Telestial Forum.


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 Post subject: Re: Cross, point, or angel on steeple?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:48 pm 
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liz3564 wrote:
(Moderator Note) Mike Reed's post can be read here:

http://www.mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3 ... 12#p600412

It was moved due to temple content. Remember that we have a hard and fast rule regarding temple content. ALL coversations involving specifics regarding temple symbols and dialogue MUST take place in the Telestial Forum.

I won't participate there. I'll only post where the subject can be treated respectfully.

Stupid rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Cross, point, or angel on steeple?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:14 pm 
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sweetheart_ty wrote:
Carthage proves that the Prophet's testimony was sealed with his blood. That fact is sacred even though the physical act of him being murdered was not sacred. And Carthage itself did not kill him, it merely bears witness.


Absolutely not. Not ever. Good grief. You might want to read up a little more on the events prior to Joseph's incarceration. And a little understanding of what is sacred and what is not would also not be amiss.

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 Post subject: Re: Cross, point, or angel on steeple?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:26 pm 
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Nightlion, you are misinterpreting those scriptures. It is a figurative statement meaning for one to sacrifice for the gospels sake, and has nothing to do with using the instrument of Christ's death for a symbol of the church, and crucifying Him afresh.


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 Post subject: Re: Cross, point, or angel on steeple?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:54 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Nightlion, you are misinterpreting those scriptures. It is a figurative statement meaning for one to sacrifice for the gospels sake, and has nothing to do with using the instrument of Christ's death for a symbol of the church, and crucifying Him afresh.

Ah yes, Nightlion... it is a figurative statement.... in other words, it is SYMBOLIC. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Cross, point, or angel on steeple?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:15 pm 
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harmony wrote:
sweetheart_ty wrote:
Carthage proves that the Prophet's testimony was sealed with his blood. That fact is sacred even though the physical act of him being murdered was not sacred. And Carthage itself did not kill him, it merely bears witness.


Absolutely not. Not ever. Good grief. You might want to read up a little more on the events prior to Joseph's incarceration. And a little understanding of what is sacred and what is not would also not be amiss.


I have no idea why you think that. Hopefully you will return and write a response containing argument and substance.


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 Post subject: Re: Cross, point, or angel on steeple?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:20 pm 
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Mike Reed wrote:
gdemetz wrote:
Nightlion, you are misinterpreting those scriptures. It is a figurative statement meaning for one to sacrifice for the gospels sake, and has nothing to do with using the instrument of Christ's death for a symbol of the church, and crucifying Him afresh.

Ah yes, Nightlion... it is a figurative statement.... in other words, it is SYMBOLIC. ;)


Hi Mike, you might have missed this: http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=600583#p600583


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 Post subject: Re: Cross, point, or angel on steeple?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:21 pm 
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sweetheart_ty wrote:
I have no idea why you think that.

Care to rationalize Spencer W. Kimbal's revelation?

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 Post subject: Re: Cross, point, or angel on steeple?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:27 pm 
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Mike Reed wrote:
sweetheart_ty wrote:
I have no idea why you think that.

Care to rationalize Spencer W. Kimbal's revelation?


It doesn't seem to contradict anything I've said, so why would it need to be rationalized by me?


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 Post subject: Re: Cross, point, or angel on steeple?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:50 pm 
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sweetheart_ty wrote:
Let's replace that visual with something comparable of an auditory nature, such as the sound of a man being tortured on a cross, gasping for breath and crying out. Would it be appropriate for a Church to record that sound and play it each time someone enters through the doors?


Let's take that a step further and replace the symbol for the fish with an actual sea bass. Would it be appropriate to to leave it out in the chapel for all to smell??? I think not. Much better to leave that fish as a drawing of an ancient symbol of Christianity.

Judaism has the Star of David and the Menorah as symbols. Islam has the both the squiggly calligraphy of the word Allah and the Star and Crescent as symbols. Should there not be a universal symbol uniting the wide variations of Christianity?
.

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 Post subject: Re: Cross, point, or angel on steeple?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:50 pm 
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sweetheart_ty wrote:
Hi, Mike.

The Angel Moroni is not a symbol of His death, but a symbol of the restoration of the gospel.

I didn't say it was. My comments are in regards to whether symbols are acceptable, even if God says nothing about whether they should be used to "advertise." I am glad to see that you concede that such symbols may still acceptable for "advertising." So why then you make the exception for the cross. Simply pointing out that it is a symbol of death is not enough. Seem's your argument's ad hoc, having no real historical or revelatory basis.

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The Christus depicts the nail marks in Christ's hands and feet, marks whose explicit purpose as explained by Christ is to advertise the sacrifice He made and to bear witness that He is God. See 3 Nephi 11:14-17. Seeing the prints on the resurrected Savior puts the sacrifice in context.

And? Why are you explaining the obvious?

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But remember, I'm not minimizing the cross.

You are excluding it for use, when it comes to advertising.

Quote:
The cross is a visual depiction. Let's replace that visual with something comparable of an auditory nature, such as

How about the word cross? The term is quite common in LDS scripture and hymns. Now what?

Quote:
the sound of a man being tortured on a cross, gasping for breath and crying out. Would it be appropriate for a Church to record that sound and play it each time someone enters through the doors? Or to make it the official sound of the Church and play it constantly in the background during service?

Can cathartic value, as well as an appreciation of the atonement, come from such? Sure.

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Carthage proves that the Prophet's testimony was sealed with his blood. That fact is sacred even though the physical act of him being murdered was not sacred.

Was the physical act of murdering Jesus sacred?

Quote:
And Carthage itself did not kill him, it merely bears witness.

The same can be said for the cross. The cross didn't kill him, his crucifiers. So what is your point? Both serve as reminders of death, even though both figures' work (according to LDS doctrine) continues beyond the grave.

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 Post subject: Re: Cross, point, or angel on steeple?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:23 pm 
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OK, since the explanation of Revelation seems to be too complex here, and nobody seems to accept McConkie on this, I will try a simpler approach. Imagine that you had a father who you knew to be a good man, and he was convicted of a horrible crime of which you knew he was innocent of. However, he was judged guilty and hung for it. How would you like to remember him? You may, for future historical reference for your family, want to keep a photo and other evidence of the hanging. However, would you want that photo hanging in your bedroom and living room for all to see? I should hope not! I should hope that you would want a nice photo of him while he was alive!


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 Post subject: Re: Cross, point, or angel on steeple?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:52 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
OK, since the explanation of Revelation seems to be too complex here, and nobody seems to accept McConkie on this, I will try a simpler approach. Imagine that you had a father who you knew to be a good man, and he was convicted of a horrible crime of which you knew he was innocent of. However, he was judged guilty and hung for it. How would you like to remember him? You may, for future historical reference for your family, want to keep a photo and other evidence of the hanging. However, would you want that photo hanging in your bedroom and living room for all to see? I should hope not! I should hope that you would want a nice photo of him while he was alive!



Well, I do not like to see images of Jesus hanging on the cross, because he is my RISEN Savior. However, an empty cross does bring to my mind how Christ suffered to set believers free fom the wages of sin. In that regard I do not take issue with the sign of a cross.


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 Post subject: Re: Cross, point, or angel on steeple?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:28 pm 
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Yea, I don't really have an issue with it either, but it should be remembered that it is the sign which represents this beast. It was the sign given to emperor Constantine, and John warns to not accept this mark or sign. That is why Christ's restored church does not use it. After I had received the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, I received a personal revelation that it was the mark of the beast. Six months later, I saw a writing by an apostle of the church who had apparently received this same revelation.


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 Post subject: Re: Cross, point, or angel on steeple?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:35 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
Yea, I don't really have an issue with it either, but it should be remembered that it is the sign which represents this beast. It was the sign given to emperor Constantine, and John warns to not accept this mark or sign. That is why Christ's restored church does not use it. After I had received the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, I received a personal revelation that it was the mark of the beast. Six months later, I saw a writing by an apostle of the church who had apparently received this same revelation.


You might want to read what said apostle said about the laying on of hands not REALLY giving the gift and power of the Holy Ghost. You have to make an acceptable covenant not just go through the motions. Christ has to put his name upon you. That is something Jesus must agree to do, and it is Christ's grace then that allows the Father to visit you with fire and the Holy Ghost and cleanse you and initiate your oneness with God as you strive every moment thereafter to keep God upper most in your thought and the praise of your heart and rejoicing in your strength and the power of your might to pull in the traces that is the yoke of Christ.

You will be raised up to a state of righteousness. You will speak with the tongue of angels, (that means by the power of the Holy Ghost at times) you will find hidden treasures of wisdom and be led by the Father to mount up on eagle's wings to ride the high places of the earth as you ponder solemn and deep thoughts of the economy of God in the salvation and eternal life of man,

Oh, and if sometime he mentions what is the mark of the beast it should hardly raise a blip on the radar of eternal relevance compared with all else you are given as the waters of the Missouri river are poured out upon your head. as it were, awash in the knowledge of God.

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 Post subject: Re: Cross, point, or angel on steeple?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:53 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
Nightlion, you are misinterpreting those scriptures. It is a figurative statement meaning for one to sacrifice for the gospels sake, and has nothing to do with using the instrument of Christ's death for a symbol of the church, and crucifying Him afresh.


I hate a crucifix. I do not appreciate seeing Christ hanging upon a cross. Christ never says, take up my dead body and follow me. Saying a cross alone is tantamount to crucifying Christ afresh, the very act of perdition, is shameful sensationalism. It is a fundamentalist mindset that seeks leverages like this to oppress people on the one hand while rewarding them with a false sense of superiority on the other.

Judas betrayed with a kiss. Shall we never kiss again?

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 Post subject: Re: Cross, point, or angel on steeple?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:22 am 
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Signs, marks, tokens, symbols...
Image ImageImage


I can escape to the weirdness of the world...
Image


Blashphemy ? (An irreverent or impious act, attitude, or utterance in regard to something considered inviolable or sacrosanct) Then move this to telestial

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 Post subject: Re: Cross, point, or angel on steeple?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:28 am 
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Quote:
Let's take that a step further and replace the symbol for the fish with an actual sea bass.


Taking it a step further in that fashion makes it no longer comparable.

Quote:
Should there not be a universal symbol uniting the wide variations of Christianity?


If a symbol is chosen by God, use it in the name of God. If a symbol is chosen by man, use it in the name of man.


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