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 Post subject: Re: Are Europeans too smug, condescending and secular...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:35 pm 
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son of Ishmael wrote:
Quasimodo wrote:
Imagine that there is a house on your street with peeling paint and an untended lawn out front. The grass is overgrown in some spots and dead in others due to under watering.

The children in the house are dressed poorly and one boy is involved with a street gang. One of the teenage girls is on her second pregnancy (by a different father) and still unmarried. A rusting, unrunning car sits against the curb.

Every morning the father of this family knocks on your door and tells you he has the best house (designed by God), the best family (loved by God above all others in the neighborhood) and lives the best lifestyle.

American exceptionalism.

No wonder people in other counties feel a bit put off.



Have you been driving in my neighborhood? And by the way, that car does run.


So that's you down the street!!! You should stop by for a beer.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Europeans too smug, condescending and secular...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:49 pm 
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Only if it is not American beer.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Europeans too smug, condescending and secular...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:13 pm 
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son of Ishmael wrote:
Only if it is not American beer.


:lol: Although it is getting much better. I promise, no Miller High Life. How about Guinness?

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 Post subject: Re: Are Europeans too smug, condescending and secular...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:09 pm 
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Quasimodo wrote:
son of Ishmael wrote:
Only if it is not American beer.


:lol: Although it is getting much better. I promise, no Miller High Life. How about Guinness?


Guinness is good, very good....

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. - The Dude

Don't you know there ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk - Tom Waits


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 Post subject: Re: Are Europeans too smug, condescending and secular...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:27 pm 
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Drifting wrote:
...to understand Mormonism?

Michael Otterson, the Church's Chief Spokesperson, says "yes"...

Quote:
The bulk of European coverage, by contrast, remains cynical if not outright mocking, says Otterson. “Lots of Europeans, especially the British—and I can say this because I’m British—have smug, condescending attitudes toward Americans anyway. So do many French and Germans. Mix into that this idea of religion and the fact that many of them come from a completely secular background, and it’s really hard for them to understand the depths of American pluralism.”


http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2 ... light.html


I am glad to see that the posters have turned this thread into a comedy. I went to the link and read the entire article. Drifting's OP question is a misrepresentation of what Otterson actually said.

I do agree with what Otterson DID say. As a fan of history, I have recognized that Europeans are pretty consistent in being "smug and having condescending attitudes toward Americans". Sadly, this included their attitude about the American Indians. Worse yet, that attitude toward the American Indians was incorporated into the fledgling United States of America....sigh. IOW, man is generally not much different from one country to the next.

Are you guys going to be drinking that Guinness served at room temperature? I think most Americans are confident (what?? smug?? :surprised:) in their belief that Europeans haven't figured out what the best way to serve beer is.

jo


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 Post subject: Re: Are Europeans too smug, condescending and secular...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:29 pm 
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Jo, can you show me where my OP misrepresents what Otterson said (and which I quoted)?

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 Post subject: Re: Are Europeans too smug, condescending and secular...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:39 pm 
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jo1952 wrote:
... Europeans are pretty consistent in being "smug and having condescending attitudes toward Americans" ...

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Are Europeans too smug, condescending and secular...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:56 am 
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Drifting wrote:
Jo, can you show me where my OP misrepresents what Otterson said (and which I quoted)?


Sure, here is what he said:

The bulk of European coverage, by contrast, remains cynical if not outright mocking, says Otterson. “Lots of Europeans, especially the British—and I can say this because I’m British—have smug, condescending attitudes toward Americans anyway. So do many French and Germans. Mix into that this idea of religion and the fact that many of them come from a completely secular background, and it’s really hard for them to understand the depths of American pluralism.”

No where does he specifically mention mormonism as being victimized by European smugness. He is representing their overall general attitude about American pluralism due to their own secular background. At best mormonism and ALL religious affiliations are INCLUDED in his choice of words; i.e., "American pluralism". IOW, the basic problem when dealing with Europeans is their condescending attitude (which is founded in their secularism) toward Americans; regardless of the subject matter. You put your own spin on the article in an attempt to present something negative to say because he is LDS. However, what you wanted the article to say, it just didn't.

This is just a transparent and sorry trick which anti-LDS use; or for that matter, a common trick of anyone who holds a grudge and agenda -driven purpose against a person, a concept, or an organization. Sad thing about using tactics like this.....it has a tendency to distort not only current issues; it will also distort history when future readers review what was happening in 2012. It will be just as difficult for them to wade through opinions, agendas, etc., to try to determine what actually took place, as it is for us today to determine the true historicity of any subject matter. When researchers are so employed, they will need to be aware of the attitude of Europeans towards Americans, in order to come to a more complete and educated view of what they will finally believe was actually taking place.

jo


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 Post subject: Re: Are Europeans too smug, condescending and secular...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:31 am 
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Jo

Otterson was speaking in his official capacity of Chief Spokesman for the Church. Ergo, he was speaking about Mormonism when he stated Europeans don't understand American Pluralism etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Europeans too smug, condescending and secular...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:09 am 
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Drifting wrote:
Jo

Otterson was speaking in his official capacity of Chief Spokesman for the Church. Ergo, he was speaking about Mormonism when he stated Europeans don't understand American Pluralism etc.


Drifting,

Regardess of whether he was speaking as a Chief Spokesman for ANY religion OR any American organization, he was pointing out the basic problem of speaking with Europeans in general about American issues. Ergo, you are still trying to force his words to say and mean something he did not say or mean.

For instance, let's say that Europeans don't like waterfowl in general. If Otterson was trying to promote the sale of Mallards to Europeans as the Mallard Chief Spokesman, his comments would have described the problem of speaking with Europeans about waterfowl in general especially because Americans love all types of waterfowl. Since that problem with the Europeans exists about all waterfowl, he is faced first and foremost with their pre-existing attitudes about waterfowl; not their attitude about any particular family or subset of waterfowl.

jo


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 Post subject: Re: Are Europeans too smug, condescending and secular...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:55 am 
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Can you tell me what, specifically, you think he meant by the term "the depths of American pluralism"?

Was he saying that they don't understand how Americans can embrace different religions? And that the reason they don't understand this is because they have no religion?

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 Post subject: Re: Are Europeans too smug, condescending and secular...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:40 pm 
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krose wrote:
Can you tell me what, specifically, you think he meant by the term "the depths of American pluralism"?

Was he saying that they don't understand how Americans can embrace different religions? And that the reason they don't understand this is because they have no religion?


Krose,

In a very simplistic way, yes. I would only add that the continuing attitude toward Americans ever since we came into existence as a nation, effects and interferes with all issues American which Europeans may disagree with. In their eyes they are the wise parent; we are the rebellious children. I do not believe that all Europeans are without religion. However, in general, they are becoming more and more secular.

Blessings,

jo


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 Post subject: Re: Are Europeans too smug, condescending and secular...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:01 pm 
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jo1952 wrote:
Are you guys going to be drinking that Guinness served at room temperature? I think most Americans are confident (what?? smug?? :surprised:) in their belief that Europeans haven't figured out what the best way to serve beer is.

jo


Your education in beer drinking is sadly lacking, jo. Americans are used to drinking American beer from the fridge because it makes it sort of palatable. When it's very cold it masks the poor taste.

European beers are of much better quality and taste better at a cool room temperature. Like a good red wine. You wouldn't chill a great Bordeaux would you? Maybe you would.
:biggrin:

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 Post subject: Re: Are Europeans too smug, condescending and secular...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:04 pm 
God

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Jo, so if i changed my intro line in the OP to:

...to understand American religion?


Would you be happy that I was accurately reflecting Ottersons words?

Quasi, you shouldn't talk about chilling Bordeaux, not even in jest...you sometimes go too far...

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Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

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Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: Are Europeans too smug, condescending and secular...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:24 pm 
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Drifting wrote:
Quasi, you shouldn't talk about chilling Bordeaux, not even in jest...you sometimes go too far...


You are quite correct, Drifting. I did cross the line. Tonight I plan to atone by making a small sacrifice to Bacchus by opening a lovely California Cab. (something Americans do make well).

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 Post subject: Re: Are Europeans too smug, condescending and secular...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:26 pm 
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Quasimodo wrote:
Drifting wrote:
Quasi, you shouldn't talk about chilling Bordeaux, not even in jest...you sometimes go too far...


You are quite correct, Drifting. I did cross the line. Tonight I plan to atone by making a small sacrifice to Bacchus by opening a lovely California Cab. (something Americans do make well).


Just remember the "once it's open there's no putting the cork back in" rule. It is a cork right? Not a...*insert dramatic music*...screw cap...

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Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

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Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: Are Europeans too smug, condescending and secular...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:34 pm 
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Drifting wrote:

Just remember the "once it's open there's no putting the cork back in" rule. It is a cork right? Not a...*insert dramatic music*...screw cap...


Rest easy, Drifting. I have no intention of putting the cork back in (my wife will be joining me). There was a time when screw caps were the sign of an evil, cheap wine.

A few years ago the Australians did some studies and found that screw caps were absolutely the best way to preserve wine in the bottle. If you get much Aussie wine around your area, you'll find that their best ones now have screw caps. Fortunately, they still don't chill the reds.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Europeans too smug, condescending and secular...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:38 pm 
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Quasimodo wrote:
jo1952 wrote:
Are you guys going to be drinking that Guinness served at room temperature? I think most Americans are confident (what?? smug?? :surprised:) in their belief that Europeans haven't figured out what the best way to serve beer is.

jo


Your education in beer drinking is sadly lacking, jo. Americans are used to drinking American beer from the fridge because it makes it sort of palatable. When it's very cold it masks the poor taste.

European beers are of much better quality and taste better at a cool room temperature. Like a good red wine. You wouldn't chill a great Bordeaux would you? Maybe you would.
:biggrin:


Cheeeeeeeriooooo Quasimodo!!!

In his
'Letter To the US'
(http://cogink.com/cleese)
John Cleese wrote:
The cold tasteless stuff you call beer is actually lager. Only proper British Bitter will be referred to as "beer." Substances once known as "American Beer" will henceforth be referred to as "Near-Frozen Gnat's Urine," except for the product of the American Budweiser company which will be called "Weak Near-Frozen Gnat's Urine." This will allow true Budweiser (as manufactured for the last 1000 years in Pilsen, Czech Republic) to be sold without risk of confusion.


BTW when You are talking about red wine - or about wine in general - , please don't forget Hungarian ones.


I think my comment is NOT offtopic.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Europeans too smug, condescending and secular...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:08 pm 
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jo1952 wrote:
krose wrote:
Can you tell me what, specifically, you think he meant by the term "the depths of American pluralism"?

Was he saying that they don't understand how Americans can embrace different religions? And that the reason they don't understand this is because they have no religion?

In a very simplistic way, yes.

Well, I don't get it. Why is "American pluralism" something Europeans (or I, for that matter) should care about?

Sure, I understand your point about people in the older countries looking down their noses at the uncouth, uncultured Americans. I'm not sure it's true; it hasn't been my experience when spending time over there. But I get it.

What I don't get is the bit about "pluralism" in the quote.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Europeans too smug, condescending and secular...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:54 am 
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Quasimodo wrote:
Your education in beer drinking is sadly lacking, jo. Americans are used to drinking American beer from the fridge because it makes it sort of palatable. When it's very cold it masks the poor taste.

European beers are of much better quality and taste better at a cool room temperature. Like a good red wine. You wouldn't chill a great Bordeaux would you? Maybe you would.
:biggrin:


I must confess that I am not a beer or a wine oficionado. Therefore, I bow to your wisdom and knowledge. :redface:

jo


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 Post subject: Re: Are Europeans too smug, condescending and secular...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:11 am 
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ludwigm wrote:
In his
'Letter To the US'
(http://cogink.com/cleese)
John Cleese wrote:
The cold tasteless stuff you call beer is actually lager. Only proper British Bitter will be referred to as "beer." Substances once known as "American Beer" will henceforth be referred to as "Near-Frozen Gnat's Urine," except for the product of the American Budweiser company which will be called "Weak Near-Frozen Gnat's Urine." This will allow true Budweiser (as manufactured for the last 1000 years in Pilsen, Czech Republic) to be sold without risk of confusion.


The rest of that open letter is very funny, as well.

ludwigm wrote:
BTW when You are talking about red wine - or about wine in general - , please don't forget Hungarian ones.


I've never seen a Hungarian wine for sale around here (Southern California). I hear they are very good. I would love to try one or two. Do you have a favorite that I should look for?

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