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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:16 am 
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Back to the OP...

Quote:
“I don’t believe in God,” my husband whispered in the darkness of our bedroom.

My breath caught, and I was afraid to look at him, this boy I met and married eight years ago.


My conversation with the Mother of My Children (MOMC) was very similar in nature. After a night of reading exmormon.org exit stories I realized I didn't believe. That was that. All those years of making excuses for all the Mormon nonsense went away, and I was left with disbelief. The next morning I sat her down, and told her I didn't believe in Mormonism any more. The news literally caused her to gasp. She then asked me if I still believed in God. I said no.

We were divorcing shortly thereafter much to my unhappiness; not so much because of losing her, but because it would tear my family apart.

The price to pay for evolving one way or another can be steep, but in the end I think it's best to be honest with your spouse and let the cards play out. Anything else is deception, and an attempt to control. I suppose the only acceptable reason to maintain a faithful façade is if you have a sweet job. :D

- VRDRC

Cam, I am so sorry this happened. I hope that you were both able to find happiness, and that you were able to at least treat each other amicably for the children's sake.


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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:23 am 
When I was going through my trial of faith, I talked with my husband about it. He is very TBM. He said that if I decided to leave the Church, he would accept it, and that he loved me, and even though the transition with me not in Church would be hard, it would not change our marriage, or how he felt about me.

Since we had gone through some other issues, and had worked through them, I did not want to add more stress to the marriage, even knowing how my husband felt. Therefore, I kept going to Church, in spite of my doubts.

This was how I was able to come to terms with my NOMness. There are aspects of the LDS religion that I still in dear, such as the worship of Jesus Christ. I can concentrate on that aspect while personally discounting a lot of the others. A lot of people here have labeled me a hypocrite for doing so, but real life always trumps Internet alliances. This has something that has worked for me. I don't suggest it for everyone, but am glad I found a solution that worked for our family.

I hope the couple in the article are happy. It sounds like they are, and that they are fulfilled in their marriage. That is the important thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:46 am 
God
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Back to the OP...

Quote:
“I don’t believe in God,” my husband whispered in the darkness of our bedroom.

My breath caught, and I was afraid to look at him, this boy I met and married eight years ago.


My conversation with the Mother of My Children (MOMC) was very similar in nature. After a night of reading exmormon.org exit stories I realized I didn't believe. That was that. All those years of making excuses for all the Mormon nonsense went away, and I was left with disbelief. The next morning I sat her down, and told her I didn't believe in Mormonism any more. The news literally caused her to gasp. She then asked me if I still believed in God. I said no.

We were divorcing shortly thereafter much to my unhappiness; not so much because of losing her, but because it would tear my family apart.

The price to pay for evolving one way or another can be steep, but in the end I think it's best to be honest with your spouse and let the cards play out. Anything else is deception, and an attempt to control. I suppose the only acceptable reason to maintain a faithful façade is if you have a sweet job. :D

- VRDRC

Sorry that such a thing happened to you. If you disclosed this personal information here before, I didn't see it. I would never have guessed that this happened to you from your posts. You do not seem bitter or resentful at all.

Divorce was never discussed when my wife and I went through this. I took things very slowly (perhaps too slowly) and the "D" word was my greatest concern about the entire long drawn out process. I can't imagine how it must have felt to you at the time.

I hope that you are okay now and that you and your former wife are on good terms.

Oh, and thanks for setting me straight earlier. Much appreciated.

_________________
“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.”—Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, Page 32


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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:03 am 
God
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If only the author and her husband had read the apologetic excuses, she would have been fine with polygamy and the Book of Abraham. The apologists make it all better. I'm sure Ray A could have convinced her that it's OK for a 38 year old married man to marry a 14 year old girl.

_________________
"The truth is not uplifting; it destroys." - Boyd K. Packer

"Religion is like a penis. Its fine to have one, its fine to be proud of it; But please refrain from whipping it out in public and shoving it down people's throats." - Anonymous


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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:23 am 
God
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DrW wrote:
Sorry that such a thing happened to you. If you disclosed this personal information here before, I didn't see it. I would never have guessed that this happened to you from your posts. You do not seem bitter or resentful at all.

Divorce was never discussed when my wife and I went through this. I took things very slowly (perhaps too slowly) and the "D" word was my greatest concern about the entire long drawn out process. I can't imagine how it must have felt to you at the time.

I hope that you are okay now and that you and your former wife are on good terms.

Oh, and thanks for setting me straight earlier. Much appreciated.


Spanks. Of course there was a lot of acrimony as is typical of child custody issues, etc... But things have worked out well, now and everyone is cooh.

I agree with the sentiment that faith-based organizations ought to focus more on the here and now, marital stability, and acceptance rather than setting a psycho-social stage where the threat of eternal consequence impacts relationship stability. The consequences of families being torn apart over the notion of unknowable suppositions is a tragedy. It's a shame more adults can't overcome the loss or gain of faith. It's equally a shame that same loss or gain of faith comes with so much baggage, to include crazy demands. It is what it is, though.

- VRDRC

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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:21 am 
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DarkHelmet wrote:
If only the author and her husband had read the apologetic excuses, she would have been fine with polygamy and the Book of Abraham. The apologists make it all better. I'm sure Ray A could have convinced her that it's OK for a 38 year old married man to marry a 14 year old girl.


...when he is already married.

There. Made it even more accurate.

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~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:41 am 
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RayAgostini wrote:
Juggler Vain wrote:
It is ridiculous for you, Ray, to imply that Compton's book says Helen willingly agreed to the marriage arrangement that Joseph eventually imposed on her.

The author of this blog post came to a realization, after a lifetime in the LDS Church hearing (and wrongfully trusting) people like you mischaracterizing the known facts in the service of Joseph Smith's legacy, that she had been misled to believe that Joseph Smith's behavior in this regard was virtuous and essentially different somehow from the behavior of Warren Jeffs.


You're comparing Joseph Smith to Warren Jeffs? WOW! Is all I can say.

Have you read Compton's book? You don't need to quote me excerpts, because I have his book right before me now in my hands, chapter 22, page 486, "Polygamy, Melancholy, Possession".

Shall I scan and post it? Would you like to receive it by email? I don't need "excerpts", because I have the whole book right here at my hand.

Let me know what suits you.

Ray,

Please reread my post. I didn't compare Joseph Smith to Warren Jeffs. Maren Stephenson, the author of the blog post that you found "very moving" did. Since you've now misread Compton, my post, and Stephenson's blog post, I will directly quote her here so people can read it for themselves (emphasis mine):

I listened half-heartedly, questioned his sources, though I wasn’t about to go looking at them myself. Our prophets had made it clear that anything written outside church documents was suspect and anti-Mormon, fabricated for the sole purpose of destroying faith. Yet Sean continued, until one night it was about polygamy, my archnemesis.

“Did you know that Joseph Smith married a 14-year-old girl against her will? Did you know that he’d send men on missions and marry their wives in secret when they were gone?” I sat there silent as he kept talking, a horror growing in my gut. I knew that if Sean was right, then Joseph Smith was a fraud. I saw no difference between his acts and the modern-day acts of Warren Jeffs, whom I abhorred. And if Joseph Smith was a fraud — then what did that make the Church?

See, the way you choose to discuss things we are both reading (and I also have Compton's book in my hands) requires me to quote excerpts, so other people don't believe you when you vaguely accuse me of misunderstanding what was written. The things we are both reading do not support what you are saying, so I don't know why you are saying it, other than really poor reading comprehension skills or armchair apologist-caliber bad faith.

-JV


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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:53 pm 
From the article
Quote:
I called up a neighbor with a husband like mine and cried. But instead of empathy, she offered questions that stunned me into silence. Was Sean addicted to pornography? Watching R-rated movies? What sin had brought him to this terrible place?

My tears stopped. Her questions were so off-base that they seemed absurd. She was sincere, and trying to help, but she believed what the Church teaches — that a man would only leave because he’s disobeying the commandments. She couldn’t understand this was a rational inquiry. She saw everything as the result of sin.


This I believe is one of the major factors that cause personal relationships to be damaged. This is what the church has programmed people to believe. That it cannot be the result of rational inquiry, that it all comes from sin, or the need to rationalize sin. This is part of the reason I want to people to be familiar with critical information. To demonstrate to them that doubting the truth claims of the church is reasonable given the available evidence.


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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:26 pm 
God
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Stormy Waters wrote:
From the article
Quote:
I called up a neighbor with a husband like mine and cried. But instead of empathy, she offered questions that stunned me into silence. Was Sean addicted to pornography? Watching R-rated movies? What sin had brought him to this terrible place?

My tears stopped. Her questions were so off-base that they seemed absurd. She was sincere, and trying to help, but she believed what the Church teaches — that a man would only leave because he’s disobeying the commandments. She couldn’t understand this was a rational inquiry. She saw everything as the result of sin.


This I believe is one of the major factors that cause personal relationships to be damaged. This is what the church has programmed people to believe. That it cannot be the result of rational inquiry, that it all comes from sin, or the need to rationalize sin.


Even BC Space believes this. Therefore, it must be official doctrine.

_________________
"The truth is not uplifting; it destroys." - Boyd K. Packer

"Religion is like a penis. Its fine to have one, its fine to be proud of it; But please refrain from whipping it out in public and shoving it down people's throats." - Anonymous


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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:52 pm 
A Mormon response to this piece has been published in the Washington Post.

She doesn't directly address any of the concerns raised in the original article. Rather she takes this approach.

Quote:
If a person looks at faith like a string of Christmas lights, they demand that “light” leap from one point to another along a single string of connections. If one junction along the string is flawed, then the whole string is dysfunctional. Or, if the whole string is functional, then every single junction must be perfect.

Here’s the problem with the Christmas-light view of religion: it’s too easily manufactured and too easily broken...

The other side of the the Christmas-light perspective also makes it easy to discredit an entire faith tradition. All you have to do is knock out a single light, and kaplooey-the whole tradition is dysfunctional, bogus, and unworthy of the loyalty of intelligent people.


So polyandry, and the Book of Abraham... just broken bulbs that we can ignore.


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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:54 am 
God

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This is what the Church teaches its young men about what are the important things to look for in a spouse...


Quote:
“We recommend that people marry those who are of the same racial background generally, and of somewhat the same economic and social and educational background (some of those are not an absolute necessity, but preferred), and above all, the same religious background, without question” (“Marriage and Divorce,” in 1976 Devotional Speeches of the Year [Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 1977], p. 144).


I think it is clear that the Church teaches adults to love the religion first and the spouse second.

_________________
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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