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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:23 pm 
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why me wrote:
Here is Hiram Page's son:

Even though he left the church, he didn't leave his testimony of the divinity and authenticity of the Book of Mormon. In 1888, Philander Page, Hiram's Son, was interviewed and had this to say about his father:

"I knew my father to be true and faithful to his testimony of the divinity of the Book of Mormon until the very last. Whenever he had an opportunity to bear his testimony to this effect, he would always do so, and seemed to rejoice exceedingly in having been privileged to see the plates and thus become one of the Eight Witnesses."

Notice to see the plates.
Source? Thanks.

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"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:51 pm 
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why me wrote:
Dan Vogel wrote:
Joe, I don't think the eight witness saw the plates uncovered. They saw them through the box or cloth while hefting them. Like John Whitmer said, they were shown to them by a supernatural power. They may have use "appearance" because it was becoming clear that the weight didn't match pure gold or they were trying to be accurate and careful witnesses.


Actually John said that he saw the engravings and turned the pages over. How could he do this if the plates were covered? Since John was around at the time of translation with his brother david and all was done by a supernatural power (seer stones, head in hat, revealing of gold plates, angels, visions ect), the equation of the any experience with the book of mormon is by a supernatural power would be common for that time period.

John “Whitmer replied: ‘I now say, I handled those plates; there were fine engravings on both sides. I handled them;’ and he described how they were hung, and ‘they were shown to me by a supernatural power;’ he acknowledged all.” emphasis mine (History of the Church, Vol. 3, p. 307)


http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/History ... ch/Vol_III

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"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:40 pm 
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why me wrote:
Dan Vogel wrote:
Joe, I don't think the eight witness saw the plates uncovered. They saw them through the box or cloth while hefting them. Like John Whitmer said, they were shown to them by a supernatural power. They may have use "appearance" because it was becoming clear that the weight didn't match pure gold or they were trying to be accurate and careful witnesses.


Actually John said that he saw the engravings and turned the pages over. How could he do this if the plates were covered? Since John was around at the time of translation with his brother david and all was done by a supernatural power (seer stones, head in hat, revealing of gold plates, angels, visions ect), the equation of the any experience with the book of mormon is by a supernatural power would be common for that time period.


John “Whitmer replied: ‘I now say, I handled those plates; there were fine engravings on both sides. I handled them;’ and he described how they were hung, and ‘they were shown to me by a supernatural power;’ he acknowledged all.”

The set up for J. Whitmer's alleged "supernatural" statement, I believe, is that Turley was giving a statement re possible MO reparations.

Turley is a true believer, J. Whitmer is an apostate. Turley is challenging J. Whitmer's ill feelings against the church during this encounter in MO.

Turley's statement was being recorded by a scribe a # of years after it was allegedly made.

I understand there are # of other J. Whitmer statements on point that are not reported as including the "supernatural."

If that is really what J. Whitmer said on the occassion in question, why did he include "supernatural"? Did he think it made the testimony more believable or less believable?

Why did Turley include the "supernatural" element? Simply because that's what he remembered hearing? Did Turley think it would add to the probative power of J. Whitmer's statement?

I think Turley's statement that J. Whitmer "acknowledged all" is interesting. As if the "supernatural" element was an important part of Turley's understanding of the traditional narrative of which Turley had to have had knowledge.

Some apologist's argument that Turley merely confused J. Whitmer's experience as one of the 8 with David's, one of the 3, who saw the angel doesn't wash with me. Surely Turley knew of the testimonies and who was who, he'd been a missionary and was trusted to do clean up in MO.

So Turley thought that at least one of the 8 had seen the plates with "suprnatural" aid and that it was a good thing?

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"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.


Last edited by lulu on Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:05 pm 
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Good Why Me!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:20 am 
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lulu wrote:

Turley's statement was being recorded by a scribe a # of years after it was allegedly made.



Well then it's understandable why this should be treated at best as weak evidence and ignored.

And I now see that Dan Vogel does not think the 8 witnesses saw plates but rather instead a box they were told contained plates.

As I said before, I think if manufactured plates existed the evidence from witnesses would be much greater than the unreliable Book of Mormon witness statements written up by Smith & co on behalf of the few chosen witnesses..all relatives except Harris (I believe)..all with a vested interest.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:54 pm 
God

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why me wrote:
marg wrote:
Why me,

If you really believed David Whitmer was telling the truth as per the quotes, and the quote on his death bed is true..then you should be a Mormon. The fact that you aren't tells me you don't believe it.


Actually, marg, that is not true at all. I do attend the mormon church but not all three meetings. I think that the case for mormonism is rather good when one looks at the witnesses and Joseph Smith and what Joseph accomplished in his young life. Quite unusual especially when we consider who was Joseph before this all began.

I tend to leave it all open. I do believe David as I believe all the witnesses. But I also leave it all open for discussion and questioning. However, I do take issue with critics who just blow it all off.


I don't respect the argument from individuals who argue a position they personally don't hold unless the arguing is considered to be part of a rhetorical game or challenge and that is understood by participants.

It really is disingenuous to respond to me implying you truly believe in Mormonism's claims just because you attend church. If you truly believe the 3 witness statement in the Book of Mormon which involved D. Whitmer..then you should be a true believer in all Mormonism claims, not someone leaning towards Catholicism.

Catholicism and Mormonism are incompatible if one is a true believer imo.

viewtopic.php?p=81796#p81796

Why me: “My kids are fine and healthy and I gravitate to the catholic faith and to the mormon faith, with a slant toward catholicism.”

Obtained from http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon327.htm

Quote:
Joseph Smith History 1:18-20:

"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof. He again forbade me to join with any of them;..."

D&C 88:94:
"And another angel shall sound his trump, saying: That great church, the mother of abominations, that made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, that persecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood she who sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea behold, she is the tares of the earth; she is bound in bundles; her bands are made strong, no man can loose them; therefore, she is ready to be burned. And he shall sound his trump both long and loud, and all nations shall hear it."


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:08 pm 
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lulu wrote:
why me wrote:
Here is Hiram Page's son:

Even though he left the church, he didn't leave his testimony of the divinity and authenticity of the Book of Mormon. In 1888, Philander Page, Hiram's Son, was interviewed and had this to say about his father:

"I knew my father to be true and faithful to his testimony of the divinity of the Book of Mormon until the very last. Whenever he had an opportunity to bear his testimony to this effect, he would always do so, and seemed to rejoice exceedingly in having been privileged to see the plates and thus become one of the Eight Witnesses."

Notice to see the plates.
Source? Thanks.


http://www.moroni10.com/witnesses/Hiram_Page.html

_________________
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:14 pm 
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lulu wrote:
Source? Thanks.[/color]


You may find this interesting too:

Even though he was estranged and later excommunicated from the Church, he never denied his testimony of the Book of Mormon. In a letter to William McClellin in May 1847, he said: "As to the Book of Mormon, it would be doing injustice to myself and to the work of God in the last days to say that I could know a thing to be true in 1830 and know the same thing to be false in 1847."

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/3 ... ified.html

Not bad. It seems good ol' william was fishing for hiram to deny the book of mormon. But hiram just couldn't do it. Amazing.

_________________
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:21 pm 
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why me wrote:
lulu wrote:
Source? Thanks.[/color]


You may find this interesting too:

Even though he was estranged and later excommunicated from the Church, he never denied his testimony of the Book of Mormon. In a letter to William McClellin in May 1847, he said: "As to the Book of Mormon, it would be doing injustice to myself and to the work of God in the last days to say that I could know a thing to be true in 1830 and know the same thing to be false in 1847."

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/3 ... ified.html

Not bad. It seems good ol' william was fishing for hiram to deny the book of mormon. But hiram just couldn't do it. Amazing.


You're the master of the tertiary source.

_________________
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:24 pm 
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marg wrote:

Why me: “My kids are fine and healthy and I gravitate to the catholic faith and to the mormon faith, with a slant toward catholicism.”

Obtained from http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon327.htm



I think that you got the wrong reference to my statement.

I am no different from the witnesses which is why I can understand them so well. I cannot deny the experience that I had when I prayed about the book of mormon. I never have denied it even when I was posting on the catholic board. And the witnesses could not deny their experiences either even though they distanced themselves from the lds church. Does that make their statements about the book any less valid? No, I don't think so. We humans are rather complicated.

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I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:27 pm 
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lulu wrote:

You're the master of the tertiary source.


Maybe. But it may be difficult to find the primary source. One can only go to the internet and hope for the best. The point is: the witnesses held fast to their testimonies of the book of mormon and spoke about it on many occasions. They just could not deny what they experienced. And that speaks volumes when we consider just how many people on this forum deny their spiritual experiences when they were members. But the witnesses could not deny their experience.

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I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:03 pm 
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why me wrote:
marg wrote:

Why me: “My kids are fine and healthy and I gravitate to the catholic faith and to the mormon faith, with a slant toward catholicism.”

Obtained from http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon327.htm



I think that you got the wrong reference to my statement.


If you look above the quote you'll see I put a link to your post.

Quote:
I am no different from the witnesses which is why I can understand them so well. I cannot deny the experience that I had when I prayed about the book of mormon. I never have denied it even when I was posting on the catholic board.


Why me Have you heard the voice of God, have you seen the plates through the power of God. And what is this God or angel that you know is the same per the Book of Mormon witness statement. You have not had the same experiences that is claimed by those witnesses.

Quote:
And the witnesses could not deny their experiences either even though they distanced themselves from the lds church. Does that make their statements about the book any less valid? No, I don't think so. We humans are rather complicated.


The sort of claims they made along with them leaving the church does make their claims less valid. To deny those claims would make them liars...of which the ramifications would be hard to deal with, for them as well as their families.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:52 pm 
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marg wrote:

The sort of claims they made along with them leaving the church does make their claims less valid. To deny those claims would make them liars...of which the ramifications would be hard to deal with, for them as well as their families.


We can see the same sort of behavior in some people today who defend them but by their actions make it clear they do not really believe them.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:19 pm 
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I think if this were secular history and not religious history, anyone who disputed all of that testimony would be considered a fool!


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:00 pm 
Star B
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This topic interests me.

The defense is fascinating.

It's like nearly everything I learn about TSCC is built on obscurity and deception. It all makes sense now; it never did before.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:03 pm 
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TSCC?


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:11 pm 
Star B
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I'll abbreviate, The Church.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:14 pm 
Star B
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gdemetz,

You should know that I find your use of exclamation points makes your arguments more believable.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:15 pm 
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Ok, but that is not what all the witnesses are testifying to.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:45 pm 
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why me wrote:
They just could not deny what they experienced.

But we could start with "what was their experience."

When I asked gmetz to pick a starting point, he disappeared.

I'll pick this starting point:

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testam ... 1?lang=eng

Ready?

_________________
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:14 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
TSCC?


An exmos way of saying: The So Called Church.

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I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith


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