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 Post subject: Is the King Follet discourse doctrine or not?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:45 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Is the King Follet discourse doctrine or not?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:44 pm 
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Did you see it referenced there somewhere? Just curious.

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 Post subject: Re: Is the King Follet discourse doctrine or not?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:02 pm 
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It's nice to see things like this. It looks like there are other members that are embracing the truth and discarding some very bad doctrines that have been preached in the past.


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 Post subject: Re: Is the King Follet discourse doctrine or not?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:05 pm 
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It looks like there are other members that are embracing the truth and discarding some very bad doctrines that have been preached in the past


Such as?

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 Post subject: Re: Is the King Follet discourse doctrine or not?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:19 pm 
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bcspace wrote:
Quote:
It looks like there are other members that are embracing the truth and discarding some very bad doctrines that have been preached in the past


Such as?


Such as men will have their own planets. I'm not sad to see that false doctrine die.


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 Post subject: Re: Is the King Follet discourse doctrine or not?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:20 pm 
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Such as men will have their own planets. I'm not sad to see that false doctrine die.


When was it ever doctrine and how is not doctrine now seeing as how the official doctrine is that we are to become capital G Gods?

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 Post subject: Re: Is the King Follet discourse doctrine or not?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:59 pm 
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bcspace, why is it not doctrinal?

Joseph the prophet spoke it and it was recorded.

Other prophets and apostles after him regarded it as doctrine as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Is the King Follet discourse doctrine or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:11 am 
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bcspace, why is it not doctrinal?


I haven't said in this thread it was or wasn't doctrinal. I'm simply waiting on you guys to use the tools that have been given to determine what is and is not doctrine. So far, that hasn't happened. Unsupported claims have been made though and you need to break that habit if you want any respect.

Now I'm off to bed and perhaps sometime tomorrow, I might be able to check in and see the results of your homework should you decide to accept the challenge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYDs3_BJLhQ

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 Post subject: Re: Is the King Follet discourse doctrine or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:11 am 
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bcspace wrote:
Quote:
bcspace, why is it not doctrinal?


I haven't said in this thread it was or wasn't doctrinal. I'm simply waiting on you guys to use the tools that have been given to determine what is and is not doctrine. So far, that hasn't happened. Unsupported claims have been made though and you need to break that habit if you want any respect.

Now I'm off to bed and perhaps sometime tomorrow, I might be able to check in and see the results of your homework should you decide to accept the challenge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYDs3_BJLhQ



The problem is that church leadership won't say what is doctrine and what is not. They could make it easier on people by actually acting like prophets seers and revelators.

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 Post subject: Re: Is the King Follet discourse doctrine or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:54 am 
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On one hand we have something the prophet said that is not doctrinal(deification).

On the other, we have something the prophet said that is very doctrinal, but it has not been canonized, the specific identification of coffee and tea as the forbidden hot drinks.

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 Post subject: Re: Is the King Follet discourse doctrine or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:56 am 
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bcspace wrote:
I haven't said in this thread it was or wasn't doctrinal. I'm simply waiting on you guys to use the tools that have been given to determine what is and is not doctrine.


This lesson manual (from lds.org) contains the statement that

Joseph Smith wrote:
“God Himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make Himself visible,—I say, if you were to see Him today, you would see Him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another. …


According to LDS.org the above citation is "Quoted by William Clayton, reporting an undated discourse (my emphasis) given by Joseph Smith in Nauvoo, Illinois; in L. John Nuttall, “Extracts from William Clayton’s Private Book,” pp. 10–11, Journals of L. John Nuttall, 1857–1904, L. Tom Perry Special Collections, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah; copy in Church Archives."

President Hinckley, however, said he didn't know that Mormons ever taught this. So I guess the official LDS doctrine on the King Follett discourse is that the First Presidency is unaware of what is contained in LDS lesson manuals. Or that the key points of the King Follett discourse are doctrine, but the King Follett discourse itself is an "undated discourse" that is not doctrine.

Or something.


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 Post subject: Re: Is the King Follet discourse doctrine or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:06 am 
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bcspace lives in a world of Mormonism of his own making. While most people would consider that if it was taught by the membership of the Church, Joseph Smith included, it could be considered doctrine. Especially when ideas such as men having their own planet have been proclaimed from the pulpit. But not bcspace. I view it as all doctrine that was taught (no matter the source), the question should be only if it true or false doctrine.


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 Post subject: Re: Is the King Follet discourse doctrine or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:40 am 
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Quote:
The problem is that church leadership won't say what is doctrine and what is not. They could make it easier on people by actually acting like prophets seers and revelators.


FAIL

The Church has given clear instructions on how to determine doctrine. Use them.

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 Post subject: Re: Is the King Follet discourse doctrine or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:45 am 
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By BC Space's parameters for doctrine yes the KFD is doctrinal. It has been published in numerous official LDS sources and lesson manuals many times.

Being a God over one's planet is also doctrinal. Darth recently provided numerous quotes from GA confrerence talks all published in official LDS sources where the GA makes reference to this doctrine.

The LDS newsroom's Mormonism 101 is an attempt to water these distinct doctrines down to mere pablum is the Church's attempt to mainstream and become more appealing.


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 Post subject: Re: Is the King Follet discourse doctrine or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:45 am 
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The King Follett sermon seems to have been last published in the Ensign in 1971, with this introduction:

Quote:
The King Follett Sermon, one of the classics of Church literature, was given by the Prophet Joseph Smith at the April 7, 1844, conference of the Church in Nauvoo, Illinois. Some twenty thousand Saints were assembled. The account of the talk noted that it was the funeral sermon for Elder King Follett, a close friend of the Prophet’s who had been killed in an accident on March 9. Longhand notes of the discourse were made by Willard Richards, Wilford Woodruff, Thomas Bullock, and William Clayton. This reprint was taken from the Documentary History of the Church, vol. 6, pages 302–17. That volume notes: “This was not a stenographic report, but a carefully and skillfully prepared one made by these men who were trained in reporting and taking notes. Evidently, there are some imperfections in the report and some thoughts expressed by the Prophet which were not fully rounded out and made complete. …” It should also be noted that this discourse was given two months before the death of Joseph Smith. During these months the enemies of the Church were extremely active, and the Prophet undoubtedly anticipated the coming events. The first part of the sermon is printed this month, with the conclusion planned for the May issue of the Ensign. In future issues of the Ensign, other significant discourses and articles from the past will be presented.

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 Post subject: Re: Is the King Follet discourse doctrine or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:25 am 
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bcspace wrote:
Quote:
The problem is that church leadership won't say what is doctrine and what is not. They could make it easier on people by actually acting like prophets seers and revelators.


FAIL

The Church has given clear instructions on how to determine doctrine. Use them.



ADAM/GOD was once taught as a lecture at the veil in the temple during BY's days. It was once doctrine of the church. It is not now. LDS leaders were drinking beer all the way up to the start of prohibition and of course now they don’t. LDS doctrine seems to change at the whim of the leadership.

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 Post subject: Re: Is the King Follet discourse doctrine or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:01 pm 
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The King follet discourse is one of those philosophies of man mingled with scripture.

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 Post subject: Re: Is the King Follet discourse doctrine or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:16 pm 
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Tobin wrote:

Such as men will have their own planets. I'm not sad to see that false doctrine die.


What do you mean false doctrine? Adam was given this planet in his exaltation. He rules all the children assigned to him and he provided them with a spirit body and entered the Garden to continue the seeds in the world as he had finished them out of the world or in his exaltation.

With eternal life we go from exaltation to exaltation. It is a cycle that we repeat forever.
Being on a cycle of the continuation of the seeds is very much LIKE the one eternal round that The Very Eternal Father treads as the three of them continue on their respective course that consists of three positions which they inherit one from the other as they go from eternity to eternity. Of the three of them there is no supremacy. No way to know if any one of them was ever first.

That is why we are CALLED gods and are higher than the angels. We are NOT ever a God Almighty who is the Eternal Father who calls intelligence into independent existence. THAT only the Very Eternal Father does and all three of them are the Very Eternal Father. A mystery? No not no more.

If Adam helps to form the earth when it is made all the better. Why should not the Lord ask him how he would like it made? It will be Adam's mansion. Just one of the mansions without number that the one true God has made and will bring in and out of existence as he will.

Questions?

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 Post subject: Re: Is the King Follet discourse doctrine or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:16 pm 
Nightlion wrote:
Tobin wrote:

Such as men will have their own planets. I'm not sad to see that false doctrine die.


What do you mean false doctrine? Adam was given this planet in his exaltation. He rules all the children assigned to him and he provided them with a spirit body and entered the Garden to continue the seeds in the world as he had finished them out of the world or in his exaltation.

With eternal life we go from exaltation to exaltation. It is a cycle that we repeat forever.
Being on a cycle of the continuation of the seeds is very much LIKE the one eternal round that The Very Eternal Father treads as the three of them continue on their respective course that consists of three positions which they inherit one from the other as they go from eternity to eternity. Of the three of them there is no supremacy. No way to know if any one of them was ever first.

That is why we are CALLED gods and are higher than the angels. We are NOT ever a God Almighty who is the Eternal Father who calls intelligence into independent existence. THAT only the Very Eternal Father does and all three of them are the Very Eternal Father. A mystery? No not no more.

If Adam helps to form the earth when it is made all the better. Why should not the Lord ask him how he would like it made? It will be Adam's mansion. Just one of the mansions without number that the one true God has made and will bring in and out of existence as he will.

Questions?

So, Nightlon, you agree with Adam/God then?


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 Post subject: Re: Is the King Follet discourse doctrine or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:53 pm 
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liz3564 wrote:
Nightlion wrote:

What do you mean false doctrine? Adam was given this planet in his exaltation. He rules all the children assigned to him and he provided them with a spirit body and entered the Garden to continue the seeds in the world as he had finished them out of the world or in his exaltation.

With eternal life we go from exaltation to exaltation. It is a cycle that we repeat forever.
Being on a cycle of the continuation of the seeds is very much LIKE the one eternal round that The Very Eternal Father treads as the three of them continue on their respective course that consists of three positions which they inherit one from the other as they go from eternity to eternity. Of the three of them there is no supremacy. No way to know if any one of them was ever first.

That is why we are CALLED gods and are higher than the angels. We are NOT ever a God Almighty who is the Eternal Father who calls intelligence into independent existence. THAT only the Very Eternal Father does and all three of them are the Very Eternal Father. A mystery? No not no more.

If Adam helps to form the earth when it is made all the better. Why should not the Lord ask him how he would like it made? It will be Adam's mansion. Just one of the mansions without number that the one true God has made and will bring in and out of existence as he will.

Questions?

So, Nightlon, you agree with Adam/God then?


No I do not. Brigham had it all out of whack.

Adam had nothing to do with Christ being conceived or impregnated of Mary.
If you are meaning the father of our spirit body and the one who holds the scepter over this world you can rightly say with that understanding: Adam is our 'g'od and the only 'g'od with whom we have to do. So as to mean that no other exalted parent has anything to do with us.
But saying that has nothing at all to do with the fact the God, The Very Eternal Father is over all the little 'g' gods in the universe. And that Supreme Being is never duplicated as he reigns over worlds without number and whose power is in all things and through all things and makes alive all that is alive.

I can explain further.

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 Post subject: Re: Is the King Follet discourse doctrine or not?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:03 am 
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I love the part where I use bcspace's own methodology, arrive at the correct (if inconvenient) conclusion, then he shows up, yells at Tobin for a second, and disappears without addressing my statement.


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