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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:37 am 
God

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An altar call is merely an invitation to Christ. I think you are placing too much emphasis on the word altar rather than on the principle such as clearly demonstrated by Jesus in his ministry. More often Christian churches use the term invitation. Again, you are using a purely Mormon interpretation of exactly what the "rock" is that Jesus is talking about. I suspect Mormons are alone in their interpretation. Christianity does not interpret the passage the way Mormons do. I responded fully on this in an earlier post to Franktalk...perhaps you would like to go back and read it. Since deep down I know you won't, I'll reiterate two points I made and which I stand by. Firstly, Christ is the rock on which his church is built....he is first and foremost in all things. Secondly, it is the declaration of Peter, that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God, that is a foundational belief of Christ's Church and not the process that enabled Peter to make the declaration. I agree that God did indeed reveal his will through the prophets "in the past" "at many times and in various ways but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son." Is that not clear enough that prophets, in the sense of Moses, are a thing of the past. What can they possibly say that can trump the literal presence of "god with us" in Jesus who remains with believers in and through the Holy Spirit? I'll place my trust in Jesus alone rather than false "propehts, seers and revelators" as you apparently do.


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:30 pm 
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Franktalk wrote:

Where in scripture does it say that before Jesus blessed the liquid it was wine? The closest I could find was the man that had the room for the feast was carrying water when he was found.


Franktalk,

Jesus says "I tell you, from now on I shall not drink this fruit of the vine until the day when I drink it with you new in the kingdom of my Father.” You'd have to view this as some random statement from nowhere if you think he was drinking water before he made this statement.

Also, the feast was a Passover feast. What were/are the Jewish traditions surrounding this feast? The Four Cups of wine used in the Passover seder symbolize the four distinct redemptions promised by God to the Hebrews as told in Exodus 6:6-7. (1) "I will take you out of Egypt", (2) "I will deliver you from Egyptian slavery", (3) "I will redeem you with a demonstration of my power", and (4) "I will acquire you as a nation".

Jesus uses the third cup, and says he will not drink the fourth. Powerful message there, in those cups of wine, no?

You also have the practice of the early Christians, which always, every time, is described as using wine. Never, not once, water. Using water is an innovation that didn't come until centuries later.

Quote:
Also it appears that the wedding at which time Jesus turned water into wine may have been a foreshadow of the last supper. The servants at the wedding who knew the water was turned to wine said nothing. It is not a big deal but I think we all assume it was wine before He blessed it.

If you can find where it says it was wine before the blessing let me know.


The wedding feast at Cana is the beginning of Jesus' public ministry. It foreshadows the end of His ministry. The shedding of Jesus' blood on the Cross, and also the Resurrection, as he performs this miracle on the third day of the wedding....again, a reference to redemption.

Here's a description of the last supper, from modern Hebrew Christians:

http://jewishroots.net/library/holiday- ... supper.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:53 pm 
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Hello Albion?! The rock is revelation from Christ and God! How can it be Christ's church if it is not set up to receive revelations from Christ?! Remember; "Surely the Lord will do NOTHING except He first reveal it to His servants the prophets." And, since your church has no prophets, then obviously the Lord will do nothing in your church, except perhaps to try and wake it up! Is your church going into all the world and baptizing all as Christ instructed?! Are they performing the other duties that Christ instructed such as laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost?! No, it's not; it's just going out like the lost sheep that they are and giving altar calls!


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:56 pm 
God

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gdemetz, I know what Mormonism teaches as well as you do but together with the rest of Christianity I reject that premise. If you want to discuss any particular point please give the reference so we can look at the passage within the context it was given to see what it is really talking about.


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:36 pm 
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I know, Albion. You reject not only Mormonism, but all the scholarly non Mormon references I give, and not only that, you reject all the Bible quotes I give you too, by that same dumb argument that (apostate) Christendom doesn't believe that! Hello Albion! That's why a restitution of all things was necessary!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:05 am 
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Madeleine,

I believe you missed my point. At the last supper Christ may have turned the water to wine, we don't know. But we are not Christ and can not turn water to wine. So we start with what He had in the cup that He gave to the Apostles. All I am saying is there is an assumption that Christ used wine and did not change it. Although a change in the nature of the drink seems likely to me. When I meet Christ I intend to ask Him if the memory of the last supper does not come back to me. After all my spirit witnessed the events first hand.

When Moses talked of the Passover feast he talked of the lamb, bread, and bitter herbs. He did not speak of drink.

A book called the Haggadah (from the Hebrew root "to tell") that serves as the liturgy and guidebook for the seder is an amazing pedagogic instrument that developed over time. The first documented evidence of parts of the Haggadah is found in the Mishnah (edited ca. 200 CE). The arrangement of the table, the psalms, benedictions, and other recited matter of today coincide substantially with the program laid down in the Mishnah. Midrashim (commentaries) were added and most of the version we now have was completed by the end of the Talmudic period (500-600 CE). Evidence of the wide acceptance of the Haggadah was its inclusion in Rav Amram's siddur (prayerbook) in the eighth century CE.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holiday ... tory.shtml

Do we know when the oral tradition came to be? We know when it was written down.


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:38 am 
God
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Franktalk wrote:
Madeleine,

I believe you missed my point. At the last supper Christ may have turned the water to wine, we don't know. But we are not Christ and can not turn water to wine. So we start with what He had in the cup that He gave to the Apostles. All I am saying is there is an assumption that Christ used wine and did not change it. Although a change in the nature of the drink seems likely to me. When I meet Christ I intend to ask Him if the memory of the last supper does not come back to me. After all my spirit witnessed the events first hand.

When Moses talked of the Passover feast he talked of the lamb, bread, and bitter herbs. He did not speak of drink.

A book called the Haggadah (from the Hebrew root "to tell") that serves as the liturgy and guidebook for the seder is an amazing pedagogic instrument that developed over time. The first documented evidence of parts of the Haggadah is found in the Mishnah (edited ca. 200 CE). The arrangement of the table, the psalms, benedictions, and other recited matter of today coincide substantially with the program laid down in the Mishnah. Midrashim (commentaries) were added and most of the version we now have was completed by the end of the Talmudic period (500-600 CE). Evidence of the wide acceptance of the Haggadah was its inclusion in Rav Amram's siddur (prayerbook) in the eighth century CE.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holiday ... tory.shtml

Do we know when the oral tradition came to be? We know when it was written down.


Hello Franktalk,

I understood your point. I see no need to read into the narrative what you are reading into it.

As a Catholic, I am not sola scriptura. :-) But neither do I believe that every speculation under the sun is probable.

Both Jews and Catholics have Sacred Tradition, that is, a belief that what God has revealed is found in written scripture, and in the faith that is handed on. Oral tradition being a part of Tradition, but not its entirety. Liturgy is also a major part of the faith handed on. The Feast of the Passover is one such liturgy. Both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition are inspired of the Holy Spirit.

Hope that helps clarify my position and why I pointed out the Sacred Traditions of the Jewish Passover feast, which Jesus, as a devout Jew, would have participated in.

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Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:52 pm 
God

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1 Corinthians 11:8-9
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8 For man [a]does not originate from woman, but woman from man; 9 for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake.

So, how does this fit the Mormon way of thinking? As a Christian, I see that Adam was created and that Adam didn't exist prior to Eden. Eve was CREATED from Adam's rib. The Bible clearly is suggesting that there were no women and that GOD created them for man. Doesn't this cause a Mormon alarm to go off somewhere..?


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:51 pm 
God

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:59 am
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As a Christian of Mormon faith, I say no. It causes no alarm to go off. Apostate Christianity has no true prophets, and consequently no one to explain to the poor members of the various wandering sects the mysteries of the creation. For example, no one in apostate Christendom can adequately explain how Adam was made from the dust of the earth as the Book of Genisis states, and is also the son of God as the Book of Luke states, they can only speculate that perhaps the statement in Luke was figurative based on their own man made doctrines or opinions. True modern prophets and apostles from the restored true Christian church have explained this clearly and truthfully!


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:35 am 
CTR A

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:44 am
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gdemetz wrote:
As a Christian of Mormon faith, I say no. It causes no alarm to go off. Apostate Christianity has no true prophets, and consequently no one to explain to the poor members of the various wandering sects the mysteries of the creation. For example, no one in apostate Christendom can adequately explain how Adam was made from the dust of the earth as the Book of Genisis states, and is also the son of God as the Book of Luke states, they can only speculate that perhaps the statement in Luke was figurative based on their own man made doctrines or opinions. True modern prophets and apostles from the restored true Christian church have explained this clearly and truthfully!


Hello gdemetz,

The problem I see with your claim is that using the OT as a guide, providing answers with regards to mysteries was never the function of a prophet. The functions of a prophet were:
1. To take the necesary steps to obtain the will of God. This would involve separating himself from society (going out to the desert) for a time, to insure that it was actually God speaking and not his own personal desires.
2. After obtaining what he was sure was the message from God he would take that message to whomever was to be the recipient of the message. This would often be to the ruling class and often delivering this message would involve placing themselves in harms way. Think of Moses before pharoah telling him to let the Israelites go, or Nathan telling David he had intercourse with another man's wife.
3. They passed on there skills to the next generation. Presumably Samuel started the school of the prophets, and the famous prophets from the headmasters of these schools.

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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:41 am 
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LittleNipper wrote:
1 Corinthians 11:8-9
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8 For man [a]does not originate from woman, but woman from man; 9 for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake.

So, how does this fit the Mormon way of thinking? As a Christian, I see that Adam was created and that Adam didn't exist prior to Eden. Eve was CREATED from Adam's rib. The Bible clearly is suggesting that there were no women and that GOD created them for man. Doesn't this cause a Mormon alarm to go off somewhere..?


IIRC the Church has officially stated that the whole Eve/Adam's rib thing is figurative and not meant to be taken literally. Of course, they as yet won't point out what else is meant to be taken figuratively.

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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:54 pm 
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Drifting wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
1 Corinthians 11:8-9
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8 For man [a]does not originate from woman, but woman from man; 9 for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake.

So, how does this fit the Mormon way of thinking? As a Christian, I see that Adam was created and that Adam didn't exist prior to Eden. Eve was CREATED from Adam's rib. The Bible clearly is suggesting that there were no women and that GOD created them for man. Doesn't this cause a Mormon alarm to go off somewhere..?


IIRC the Church has officially stated that the whole Eve/Adam's rib thing is figurative and not meant to be taken literally. Of course, they as yet won't point out what else is meant to be taken figuratively.

But if Mormons see Adam & Eve as merely figurative, why would they imagine that an obscure verse regarding being baptised for the dead is anything but figurative.


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:09 pm 
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LittleNipper wrote:
But if Mormons see Adam & Eve as merely figurative, why would they imagine that an obscure verse regarding being baptised for the dead is anything but figurative.
They shouldn't. It seems to be gdemetz's thing. If it were a common practice of the early Christian Church, there would be more than one verse about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:29 pm 
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We don't see Adam and Eve as merely figurative and we don't see baptism for the dead as merely figurative!


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:42 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
We don't see Adam and Eve as merely figurative and we don't see baptism for the dead as merely figurative!


What about 6 literal days of creation ---evening and morning? I believe the creation epic to be literal, as well as, the Flood...


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:50 pm 
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I heard one of the general authorities in conference, and naturally I can't remember who it was, talking about the days as referring to time periods. I think that Legrand Richards believed that the days represented 1,000 year periods since the Lord had not yet appointed Adam his time of reckoning. However, I believe that the church has no official view as to the exact time, only that the days represented time periods or phases of the creation. However, the church has specifically taught that Eve being taken from Adam's rib is allegorical, and that Adam and Eve are a son and daughter of God.


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:32 am 
God

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gdemetz wrote:
I heard one of the general authorities in conference, and naturally I can't remember who it was, talking about the days as referring to time periods. I think that Legrand Richards believed that the days represented 1,000 year periods since the Lord had not yet appointed Adam his time of reckoning. However, I believe that the church has no official view as to the exact time, only that the days represented time periods or phases of the creation. However, the church has specifically taught that Eve being taken from Adam's rib is allegorical, and that Adam and Eve are a son and daughter of God.


Well, if the creation of Eve from Adam's rib is allegorical and evening and morning (being a day) is really some unknown period of time (when God relates it), how can one actually accept that being baptized for the dead is anything but an implied sarcasm on the part of a disciple?


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:33 am 
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sleepyhead, I think you miss an essential, over riding element of the role of the prophet which was to be God's mouthpiece in preparing his people for the first coming of Christ. At that point, the "law AND the prophets" was fulfilled. As scripture shows, the full mystery of God is revealed in Christ, as well as his grace in totality. Just as the law holds no power over believers so prophets in the sense of OT prophets was fulfilled, done away with. What more important things can god reveals than himself in Jesus? Mormons can lament for poor old Christianity that they have no prophets, they have no apostles. they have no priesthood, they don't have this, they don't have that....I guess it will just have to make do with do with Jesus and the Word.


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:01 pm 
CTR A

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Hello Albion,

>>>I think you miss an essential, over riding element of the role of the prophet which was to be God's mouthpiece in preparing his people for the first coming of Christ.<<<

While there are some prophecies in the OT that are relevant to Christianity (or at least interpreted by Christianity as being relevant), I don't think you can say that about the whole.

>>>At that point, the "law AND the prophets" was fulfilled. <<<

The above is mostly drawn from a verse in Matthew 5 ie "I have not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it". This is actually the beginning of a sermon which continues on to Chapters 6 and 7. For a more complete understanding of what Jesus meant by this comment one should read the entire sermon.

>>>Just as the law holds no power over believers so prophets in the sense of OT prophets was fulfilled, done away with.<<<

The arc of the covenant provided a mixed blessing and cursing. The Israelites had to watch there P's and Q's and many of them died both in the wilderness and later when they became a nation because of there vicinity to the arc. When the Philistines captured the arc God began dealing with them by destroying there God and giving them boils. The benefit of the arc was that it enabled individuals who so desired to obtain God's word. It is more difficult to obtain God's word now.

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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:11 pm 
God

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I would disagree with you. The overall theme of the entire OT is God's dealing with Israel to prepare them to be a godly people. Everything within the OT is a precursor to the coming of Christ, including the Law and the prophets...."But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness comes from God through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believed. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus..." Romans 4: 21-24. The testimony of the Law and OT prophets will remain but what the Law and those prophets could not do, make man righteous, Christ did through his atonement at Calvary for all who believe on his name. "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand." Romans5:1-2

Prophets are intertwined with the Law and have been fulfilled, taken into the New Covenant that God makes with believers by his grace because of their faith in Jesus. Why would a believer possibly want a prophet as an intermediary when the believer has Jesus and everything necessary for salvation has been accomplished in and through Him?

I'm not sure just what your reference to the Arc has to do with anything but I would recommend an indepth reading of Romans to understand the sufficiency of Christ in all things.


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:04 pm 
God

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The reality is that every Christian is a priest. The Christian's body becomes the temple of the Lord (indwelled by the Holy Spirit). There is no need for stone temples made by the hands of men.

New International Version (©1984)
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

New Living Translation (©2007)
But you are not like that, for you are a chosen people. You are royal priests, a holy nation, God's very own possession. As a result, you can show others the goodness of God, for he called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light.

English Standard Version (©2001)
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

International Standard Version (©2008)
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people to be his very own and to proclaim the wonderful deeds of the one who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
But you are a chosen race who serve as Priests for The Kingdom, a holy people, a redeemed assembly; you should proclaim the praises of him who called you from darkness into his excellent light.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
However, you are chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, people who belong to God. You were chosen to tell about the excellent qualities of God, who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:

American King James Version
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light;

American Standard Version
But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Douay-Rheims Bible
But you are a chosen generation, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people: that you may declare his virtues, who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Darby Bible Translation
But ye are a chosen race, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a people for a possession, that ye might set forth the excellencies of him who has called you out of darkness to his wonderful light;

English Revised Version
But ye are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may shew forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:

Webster's Bible Translation
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:

Weymouth New Testament
But you are a chosen race, a priesthood of kingly lineage, a holy nation, a people belonging specially to God, that you may make known the perfections of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvellous light.

World English Bible
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may proclaim the excellence of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:

Young's Literal Translation
and ye are a choice race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people acquired, that the excellences ye may shew forth of Him who out of darkness did call you to His wondrous light;

New International Version (©1984)
you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

New Living Translation (©2007)
And you are living stones that God is building into his spiritual temple. What's more, you are his holy priests. Through the mediation of Jesus Christ, you offer spiritual sacrifices that please God.

English Standard Version (©2001)
you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

International Standard Version (©2008)
you, too, as living stones, are building yourselves up into a spiritual house and a holy priesthood, so that you may offer spiritual sacrifices that are acceptable to God through Jesus, the Messiah.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
And you also, as living stones, be built up and become spiritual temples and holy Priests to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable before God by Yeshua The Messiah.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
You come to him as living stones, a spiritual house that is being built into a holy priesthood. So offer spiritual sacrifices that God accepts through Jesus Christ.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
You also, as living stones, are built up into a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

American King James Version
You also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

American Standard Version
ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Be you also as living stones built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Darby Bible Translation
yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

English Revised Version
ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Webster's Bible Translation
Ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Weymouth New Testament
And be yourselves also like living stones that are being built up into a spiritual house, to become a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

World English Bible
You also, as living stones, are built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Young's Literal Translation
and ye yourselves, as living stones, are built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.


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