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 Post subject: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:44 pm 
High Priest

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http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/20 ... statement/

WOW, just WOW. That Royal admits Smith is the author of the witness statement is ... to my mind...just WOW!

After reading Metcalfe, Vogel and Marquardt's works I had come to this conclusion, but to have a BYU prof and believing Mormon admit this is quite ground breaking I believe.

This is up there with the BYU boys admitting the Indians all came from Asia and not the Middle East.

I realize FAIR/MI/FARMS will say they have always said this and all Mormons know this, but I think this is a huge admission.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:45 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:05 pm 
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From what I understand we do not have a copy of the testimony with the witnesses signature. I think many have reasoned that Joseph Smith wrote the witness statement. Then we also have the church changing the words on the statement that the witnesses supposedly testified to.

It does make you wonder.

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/3913intro.htm

It is interesting to note that even the signed statement by the eight witnesses to the Book of Mormon has been altered. In the 1830 edition (last page) it read:
"... that Joseph Smith, Jr. the Author and Proprietor of this work, has shewn unto us the plates ... "
In the 1964 edition it reads:
"... That Joseph Smith, Jun., the Translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates ... "


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:07 pm 
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Frodo wrote:
From what I understand we do not have a copy of the testimony with the witnesses signature. I think many have reasoned that Joseph Smith wrote the witness statement. Then we also have the church changing the words on the statement that the witnesses supposedly testified to.

It does make you wonder.

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/3913intro.htm

It is interesting to note that even the signed statement by the eight witnesses to the Book of Mormon has been altered. In the 1830 edition (last page) it read:
"... that Joseph Smith, Jr. the Author and Proprietor of this work, has shewn unto us the plates ... "
In the 1964 edition it reads:
"... That Joseph Smith, Jun., the Translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates ... "

Obviously the Church of 1964 knew better what JSJr had been up to in the creation of the Book of Mormon than say...JSJr himself.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:15 pm 
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Frodo wrote:
From what I understand we do not have a copy of the testimony with the witnesses signature. I think many have reasoned that Joseph Smith wrote the witness statement. Then we also have the church changing the words on the statement that the witnesses supposedly testified to.

It does make you wonder.

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/3913intro.htm

It is interesting to note that even the signed statement by the eight witnesses to the Book of Mormon has been altered. In the 1830 edition (last page) it read:
"... that Joseph Smith, Jr. the Author and Proprietor of this work, has shewn unto us the plates ... "
In the 1964 edition it reads:
"... That Joseph Smith, Jun., the Translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates ... "


I am gobsmacked. The church has altered a material element in the witness statement that it wants us to believe was signed by the eight witnesses all those years ago under conditions of the greatest solemnity, with God as their witness?

Someone care to justify that?

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:57 pm 
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Chap wrote:
I am gobsmacked. The church has altered a material element in the witness statement that it wants us to believe was signed by the eight witnesses all those years ago under conditions of the greatest solemnity, with God as their witness?

Someone care to justify that?

I did a bit of research and the change was made in the 1837 edition. This is also the edition where Joseph Smith's title is changed from "author" to translator" on the title page. I guess Joseph Smith felt no compunction about rewriting the eight witnesses' statement ... probably because he wrote it to begin with.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:03 pm 
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dblagent007 wrote:
Chap wrote:
I am gobsmacked. The church has altered a material element in the witness statement that it wants us to believe was signed by the eight witnesses all those years ago under conditions of the greatest solemnity, with God as their witness?

Someone care to justify that?

I did a bit of research and the change was made in the 1837 edition. This is also the edition where Joseph Smith's title is changed from "author" to translator" on the title page. I guess Joseph Smith felt no compunction about rewriting the eight witnesses' statement ... probably because he wrote it to begin with.

JSJr was probably the one that signed their names to it too--if there ever were any signatures.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:31 pm 
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dblagent007 wrote:
I did a bit of research and the change was made in the 1837 edition. This is also the edition where Joseph Smith's title is changed from "author" to translator" on the title page. I guess Joseph Smith felt no compunction about rewriting the eight witnesses' statement ... probably because he wrote it to begin with.


This is an excellent point. As Mike Marquardt keeps telling me, if Smith felt comfortable changing the words of God, then he was completely at ease changing his story (First Vision for example).

I will suggest that Smith was as comfortable changing words that were supposed to have come from other people.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:48 pm 
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Really fascinating stuff, Joe. You may be interested to know that, a couple of years ago, I was told by an "informant" that Skousen had "royally" pissed off some of the Powers-that-Be in Salt Lake City over his work on the Book of Mormon. I'm sure you can understand why: Skousen's work effectively argued that his own critical version of the Book of Mormon is/was more "authoritative" than the one overseen by Joseph Smith himself. If I'm not mistaken, Skousen ignored GA recommendations and went ahead with his publication in spite of what they told him.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:01 am 
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Thanks Doc.

All of my friends have nothing but good things to say about Royal. The consistent thing that is said about Royal is that he is the only scholar found at the Maxwell Institute. My guess would be that Royal is such a classy person, he would never suggest such a thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:14 am 
B.H. Roberts Chair of Mopologetic Studies
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Joe Geisner wrote:
Thanks Doc.

All of my friends have nothing but good things to say about Royal. The consistent thing that is said about Royal is that he is the only scholar found at the Maxwell Institute. My guess would be that Royal is such a classy person, he would never suggest such a thing.


Well, clearly the Mopologists are a fan of Skousen's, too. They are a fan of anyone who helps make the case that their work--their "scholarship"--is more authoritative than the words and revelations of the prophets and GAs.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:17 am 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:

Well, clearly the Mopologists are a fan of Skousen's, too. They are a fan of anyone who helps make the case that their work--their "scholarship"--is more authoritative than the words and revelations of the prophets and GAs.



You are not going to get an argument from me. As you posted on the facebook thread, they apologists have set out to do harm to good people. If Royal crosses them in any way, they will throw him under the bus. Much like what the JSPP are doing with all the other people that Smith associated with, including Brigham Young.

The call is to save Smith at all cost!


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:24 am 
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Is this the original statement of the eight witnesses? I'm not a handwriting expert, but it sure looks like the same person wrote the statement and signed all the names (note the distinctive way capital Ss are written througout).
http://goo.gl/MKT2P

Here is the one for the three witnesses.
http://goo.gl/oMpDY

Normally, the Joseph Smith papers show who wrote the statement. Actually, maybe they didn't list a scribe if it was in Joseph Smith's own handwriting. Actually, upon further reflection, both of these statements along with the signatures appear to be in Joseph Smith's distinctive curvy handwriting.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:28 am 
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One more thing to note is that this was written in June-Aug 1829, shortly after the Book of Mormon was translated. I bet these are the original statements written in Joseph Smith's handwriting including the signatures of each alleged witness!


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:51 am 
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dblagent007 wrote:
Is this the original statement of the eight witnesses? I'm not a handwriting expert, but it sure looks like the same person wrote the statement and signed all the names (note the distinctive way capital Ss are written througout).
http://goo.gl/MKT2P

Here is the one for the three witnesses.
http://goo.gl/oMpDY

Normally, the Joseph Smith papers show who wrote the statement. Actually, maybe they didn't list a scribe if it was in Joseph Smith's own handwriting. Actually, upon further reflection, both of these statements along with the signatures appear to be in Joseph Smith's distinctive curvy handwriting.
This was answered in a prior thread. The statement of the 8 is in Cowdery's handwriting and is part of the printer's BofM manuscript. That is stated on another page on the JSPP site.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:21 am 
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lulu wrote:
This was answered in a prior thread. The statement of the 8 is in Cowdery's handwriting and is part of the printer's BofM manuscript. That is stated on another page on the JSPP site.

Ah, thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:42 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:56 am 
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I went back and read the linked article in the OP. His case is that there is a strong textual similarity between the book of Mormon and the 3 witness statement. He indicated that this is evidence that the 3 witness statement was received revelation just as the book of Mormon.

It would appear that you could also make the case that if the book of Mormon were a fictional account dictated by Joseph that you would expect to see the same similarity in the text of the 3 witness statement.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:04 pm 
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Frodo wrote:
I went back and read the linked article in the OP. His case is that there is a strong textual similarity between the book of Mormon and the 3 witness statement. He indicated that this is evidence that the 3 witness statement was received revelation just as the book of Mormon.

It would appear that you could also make the case that if the book of Mormon were a fictional account dictated by Joseph that you would expect to see the same similarity in the text of the 3 witness statement.


Half a minute. The witness statements are supposed to be what real living people set down as a record of what they have seen. These are human voices speaking, or they aren't what they claim to be. By reason of that fact, they couldn't be more different from revelation.

Now since we know that this stuff was not revelation, the obvious deduction is that anything resembling it is, by reason of that fact, and to that extent, LESS likely to be revelation.

Clearly the only hypothesis in town that fits in with the textual resemblances between the witness statements and the Book of Mormon is that the same person wrote both.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:04 pm 
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Does it really matter? The witnesses saw the statement where their names were attached and were fine with it. Since there were two statements and 11 witnesses, it would be obvious that the statements would have written by one or two people. The important thing is: no witness contradicted the statement. End of story.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:08 pm 
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Chap wrote:

Half a minute. The witness statements are supposed to be what real living people set down as a record of what they have seen. These are human voices speaking, or they aren't what they claim to be. By reason of that fact, they couldn't be more different from revelation.


None of the witnesses contradicted their statement in the book or mormon. Nor did they ever deny what they saw and felt with their hands. In other words, the three witnesses never denied the vision and the 8 witnesses never denied not seeing the plates and feeling them with their hands. End of story.

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