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 Post subject: Attempted derail from "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:04 am 
Quote:
“Without any preliminaries [my Father] asked me if I would believe him if he told me that it was right for married men to take other wives...The first impulse was anger...my sensibilities were painfully touched. I felt such a sense of personal injury and displeasure; for to mention such a thing to me I thought altogether unworthy of my father, and as quick as he spoke, I replied to him, short and emphatically, ‘No I wouldn’t!’...This was the first time that I ever openly manifested anger towards him...Then he commenced talking seriously and reasoned and explained the principle, and why it was again to be established upon the earth. [This] had a similar effect to a sudden shock of a small earthquake.” 

Then father “asked me if I would be sealed to Joseph...[and] left me to reflect upon it for the next twenty-four hours...I was sceptical-one minute believed, then doubted. I thought of the love and tenderness that he felt for his only daughter, and I knew that he would not cast her off, and this was the only convincing proof that I had of its being right. I knew that he loved me too well to teach me anything that was not strictly pure, virtuous and exalting in its tendencies; and no one else could have influenced me at that time or brought me to accept of a doctrine so utterly repugnant and so contrary to all of our former ideas and traditions."


Joseph Smith then explained to her...
Quote:
"[He explained] the principle of Celestial marrage...After which he said to me, ‘If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father’s household & all of your kindred.[‘] This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward. None but God & his angels could see my mother’s bleeding heart-when Joseph asked her if she was willing...She had witnessed the sufferings of others, who were older & who better understood the step they were taking, & to see her child, who had scarcely seen her fifteenth summer, following in the same thorny path, in her mind she saw the misery which was as sure to come...; but it was all hidden from me.”


Yep Ray, on closer examination Joseph Smiths reputation has been saved. Helen certainly wasn't manipulated at all.
Also whether or not Joseph had sex with her was not mentioned in the article or by any of the posters. You brought it up even though it was completely unrelated to the topic at hand.


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 Post subject: Re: Attempted derail from "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:16 am 
Stormy Waters wrote:
Yep Ray, on closer examination Joseph Smiths reputation has been saved.
Also whether or not Joseph had sex with her was not mentioned in the article or by any of the posters. You brought it up even though it was completely unrelated to the topic at hand.


It's a virtually an accepted axiom here that Joseph had "sexual relations" with Helen Mar. There's no evidence for this.

Where was Helen Mar "forced" to do anything?

You're talking about two Latter-day Saints, Heber Kimball and his wife Violate, who remained faithful all their days, in spite of Joseph's "propositions" to their daughter. Now if he had sexually molested her, I could see how that would be different.

So what's your case? That Helen Mar was "forced to marry Joseph Smith"?


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 Post subject: Re: Attempted derail from "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:28 am 
RayAgnostini wrote:
It's a virtually an accepted axiom here that Joseph had "sexual relations" with Helen Mar. There's no evidence for this.


You brought it up in a unrelated thread? Why did you?
Quote:

Where was Helen Mar "forced" to do anything?

You're talking about two Latter-day Saints, Heber Kimball and his wife Violate, who remained faithful all their days, in spite of Joseph's "propositions" to their daughter. Now if he had sexually molested her, I could see how that would be different.

So what's your case? That Helen Mar was "forced to marry Joseph Smith"?


That Joseph Smith used promises of salvation for her and her family as a way to manipulate a 14 year old into a secret marriage.


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 Post subject: Re: Attempted derail from "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:45 am 
Stormy Waters wrote:
You brought it up in a unrelated thread? Why did you?


Because I'm sick and tired of posters like you and others inciting prejudice and hatred against Joseph Smith where it's totally unnecessary.


Stormy Waters wrote:
That Joseph Smith used promises of salvation for her and her family as a way to manipulate a 14 year old into a secret marriage.


Funny that Heber and Violate never objected, and saw it as a trial, and funny that Helen said she wasn't forced, but wanted to please her parents. Now if they had asked her become a sex slave in Thailand....? Or had to be dragged or rescued out of polygamy like the Fundamentalists today, that would be different.


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 Post subject: Re: Attempted derail from "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:13 am 
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RayAgostini wrote:
Because I'm sick and tired of posters like you and others inciting prejudice and hatred against Joseph Smith where it's totally unnecessary.


Oh, it's necessary all right. Anyone who comes to this board looking for some truth about the Mormon Church should start with a realistic view of Joseph Smith's character and behavior.

Since we do not have a pinned thread about JSJr., or a permanent posted link to Mormon Think, then (IMHO) it is incumbent upon us to keep his character and behavior front and center here.

The record clearly and unequivocally shows that Joseph Smith Jr. was a con man, liar, fraud, polygamist, adulterer, and sexual predator.

This information should be up and available on at least one thread on this board at all times (again IMHO).

If you disagree, I would be interested to know why.

_________________
“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.”—Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, Page 32


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 Post subject: Re: Attempted derail from "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:19 am 
DrW wrote:

The record clearly and unequivocally shows that Joseph Smith Jr. was a con man, liar, fraud, polygamist, adulterer, and sexual predator.


The record shows that you are clearly biased. Richard Bushman, as one example, reached a very different conclusion.

I wonder why that might be?


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 Post subject: Re: Attempted derail from "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:22 am 
God
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Joseph Smith Jr. wrote:
‘If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father’s household & all of your kindred.


Ray,

It would help me to understand your assertion that this episode was not one of Smith manipulating Kimball if you could explain which Gospel ordinances offer salvation to third parties.

Kimball was told that, through her actions, the exaltation of her immediate and extended family could be 'ensured'. Yet, according to my understanding of Christianity, the only proxy through which one person's sins can be absolved is the Messiah himself.

Again, what ordinances are available to me wherein the actions I take can guarantee the exaltation of any other person?

_________________
eschew obfuscation

"I'll let you believers in on a little secret: not only is the LDS church not really true, it's obviously not true." -Sethbag


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 Post subject: Re: Attempted derail from "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:51 am 
beefcalf wrote:
Ray,

It would help me to understand your assertion that this episode was not one of Smith manipulating Kimball if you could explain which Gospel ordinances offer salvation to third parties.

Kimball was told that, through her actions, the exaltation of her immediate and extended family could be 'ensured'. Yet, according to my understanding of Christianity, the only proxy through which one person's sins can be absolved is the Messiah himself.

Again, what ordinances are available to me wherein the actions I take can guarantee the exaltation of any other person?


In the Old Testament, priests had the power to "atone", through the Law of Moses:

Quote:
32 And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest’s office in his father’s stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments:
33 And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation.
34 And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the Lord commanded Moses. (Lev.16)


After the death and resurrection of the Messiah, he could likewise appoint his prophets to make judgements on his behalf. His word, whether it be by His own mouth, or the mouth of His servants the Prophets, would be the same.

That would depend on whether one held Joseph Smith in the same esteem and authority as the ancient Prophets.

It appears that Helen Mar so held him.


Last edited by RayAgostini on Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Attempted derail from "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:04 am 
God
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RayAgostini wrote:
DrW wrote:

The record clearly and unequivocally shows that Joseph Smith Jr. was a con man, liar, fraud, polygamist, adulterer, and sexual predator.


The record shows that you are clearly biased. Richard Bushman, as one example, reached a very different conclusion.

I wonder why that might be?

Richard Bushman is LDS. Had he reached a different conclusions than he did - conclusion based on the facts that he included in his book (and there is much damning evidence that he simply left out) he would probably no longer be LDS.

Please notice that each point in the statement I made can be documented by referring to the content of written contemporary records regarding Joseph Smith's behavior. There is no need for bias in asserting the veracity of publicly available records, most of them from recognized and approved Church archives, the D&C, etc.

You don't have a defensible position here. You should probably just stop calling attention to Joseph Smith's behavior. Like millions of others, it makes me embarrassed that I was ever a member of the LDS Church.
______________

Yes, I said millions. Although the LDS Church claims membership of 14 million, non-LDS academic sociologists who study Mormonism concluded in 2010 that there were only about 5 million active members of the LDS Church world wide. That leaves some 9 million who don't attend Church, or do so very rarely. It is a safe bet that a large proportion (several million) of these 9 million or so are embarrassed that they ever participated in the LDS Church.

_________________
“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.”—Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, Page 32


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 Post subject: Re: Attempted derail from "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:15 am 
DrW wrote:
You don't have a defensible position here. You should probably just stop calling attention to Joseph Smith's behavior. Like millions of others, it makes me embarrassed that I was ever a member of the LDS Church.
______________

Yes, I said millions. Although the LDS Church claims membership of 14 million, non-LDS academic sociologists who study Mormonism concluded in 2010 that there were only about 5 million active members of the LDS Church world wide. That leaves some 9 million who don't attend Church, or do so very rarely. It is a safe bet that a large proportion (several million) of these 9 million or so are embarrassed that they ever participated in the LDS Church.


I'm not embarrassed. In the least. And I'd gladly own it again were I so divinely directed. Your statement reminds me, though, of this:

Quote:
21 And I saw numberless concourses of people, many of whom were pressing forward, that they might obtain the path which led unto the tree by which I stood.
22 And it came to pass that they did come forth, and commence in the path which led to the tree.
23 And it came to pass that there arose a mist of darkness; yea, even an exceedingly great mist of darkness, insomuch that they who had commenced in the path did lose their way, that they wandered off and were lost.
24 And it came to pass that I beheld others pressing forward, and they came forth and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press forward through the mist of darkness, clinging to the rod of iron, even until they did come forth and partake of the fruit of the tree.
25 And after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree they did cast their eyes about as if they were ashamed.
26 And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth.
27 And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female; and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine; and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit.
28 And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost. (1 Ne.8)


But please yourself, Dr. W, and continue the mocking if it makes you feel better.


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 Post subject: Re: Attempted derail from "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:34 am 
God
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RayAgostini wrote:
Stormy Waters wrote:
You brought it up in a unrelated thread? Why did you?


Because I'm sick and tired of posters like you and others inciting prejudice and hatred against Joseph Smith where it's totally unnecessary.


Stormy Waters wrote:
That Joseph Smith used promises of salvation for her and her family as a way to manipulate a 14 year old into a secret marriage.


Funny that Heber and Violate never objected,....


Hilarious Freudian slip there ...

_________________
Christopher Ralph: The discovery that the creators of South Park place a higher value on historical authenticity than do the Brethren creates spiritual shock-waves from which some members never recover.


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 Post subject: Re: Attempted derail from "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:40 am 
God
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Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:57 pm
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RayAgostini wrote:
DrW wrote:
You don't have a defensible position here. You should probably just stop calling attention to Joseph Smith's behavior. Like millions of others, it makes me embarrassed that I was ever a member of the LDS Church.
______________

Yes, I said millions. Although the LDS Church claims membership of 14 million, non-LDS academic sociologists who study Mormonism concluded in 2010 that there were only about 5 million active members of the LDS Church world wide. That leaves some 9 million who don't attend Church, or do so very rarely. It is a safe bet that a large proportion (several million) of these 9 million or so are embarrassed that they ever participated in the LDS Church.


I'm not embarrassed. In the least. And I'd gladly own it again were I so divinely directed. Your statement reminds me, though, of this:

Quote:
21 And I saw numberless concourses of people, many of whom were pressing forward, that they might obtain the path which led unto the tree by which I stood.
22 And it came to pass that they did come forth, and commence in the path which led to the tree.
23 And it came to pass that there arose a mist of darkness; yea, even an exceedingly great mist of darkness, insomuch that they who had commenced in the path did lose their way, that they wandered off and were lost.
24 And it came to pass that I beheld others pressing forward, and they came forth and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press forward through the mist of darkness, clinging to the rod of iron, even until they did come forth and partake of the fruit of the tree.
25 And after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree they did cast their eyes about as if they were ashamed.
26 And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth.
27 And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female; and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine; and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit.
28 And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost. (1 Ne.8)


But please yourself, Dr. W, and continue the mocking if it makes you feel better.

Would my quoting to you from the Quran (in which billions of people believe) be likely to change your worldview or behavior?

No?

Then why would you think quoting from the Book of Mormon, in which only a few million believe (and me certainly not among them), would have any effect on mine?

_________________
“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.”—Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, Page 32


Last edited by DrW on Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Attempted derail from "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:54 am 
God
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RayAgostini wrote:
In the Old Testament, priests had the power to "atone", through the Law of Moses:

Quote:
32 And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest’s office in his father’s stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments:
33 And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation.
34 And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the Lord commanded Moses. (Lev.16)


After the death and resurrection of the Messiah, he could likewise appoint his prophets to make judgements on his behalf. His word, whether it be by His own mouth, or the mouth of His servants the Prophets, would be the same.

That would depend on whether one held Joseph Smith in the same esteem and authority as the ancient Prophets.

It appears that Helen Mar so held him.


Smith claimed to have restored the true church to the earth. His justification of polygamy, iirc, was rooted in the Old Testament. As you well know, polygamy is still a doctrine of the LDS church, as outlined in D&C section 132. What is the modern, LDS equivalent of this 'everlasting statute' of atonement? After four decades as a Mormon, I have no recollection of participating in such an ordinance. If you are saying that Smith did indeed restore this OT practice, wrt Helen Mar Kimball, it seems safe to conclude that the church is now in a state of apostasy, given that these yearly atonement-for-all festivals seem not to have been practiced since the early days of the church. Am I missing something?

_________________
eschew obfuscation

"I'll let you believers in on a little secret: not only is the LDS church not really true, it's obviously not true." -Sethbag


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 Post subject: Re: Attempted derail from "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:19 am 
beefcalf wrote:
Smith claimed to have restored the true church to the earth. His justification of polygamy, iirc, was rooted in the Old Testament. As you well know, polygamy is still a doctrine of the LDS church, as outlined in D&C section 132. What is the modern, LDS equivalent of this 'everlasting statute' of atonement? After four decades as a Mormon, I have no recollection of participating in such an ordinance. If you are saying that Smith did indeed restore this OT practice, wrt Helen Mar Kimball, it seems safe to conclude that the church is now in a state of apostasy, given that these yearly atonement-for-all festivals seem not to have been practiced since the early days of the church. Am I missing something?


I don't relish the idea of polygamy, beef, and I don't feel particularly good defending it. But it's very possible, almost to a certainty, that it is still believed, if not practiced.

Joseph taught doctrines which he said might cause men to rise up and cut his throat. When I first read that I couldn't imagine what he might be referring to. I later learned that it was, without question, the polygamy issue. And today, on forums like MDB, we see all the "cut-throats" in action. I could never have guessed it.


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 Post subject: Re: Attempted derail from "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:02 am 
God
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RayAgostini wrote:
...

Joseph taught doctrines which he said might cause men to rise up and cut his throat. When I first read that I couldn't imagine what he might be referring to. I later learned that it was, without question, the polygamy issue. And today, on forums like MDB, we see all the "cut-throats" in action. I could never have guessed it.


Over-dramatize much? Nobody here is cutting throats, even with scare-quotes.

However, Joseph Smith's behavior with regard to women makes me rise up and say "It figures. Yup, he was a fraud all right, and got what he could while he could."

_________________
Christopher Ralph: The discovery that the creators of South Park place a higher value on historical authenticity than do the Brethren creates spiritual shock-waves from which some members never recover.


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 Post subject: Re: Attempted derail from "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:13 am 
Chap wrote:
Over-dramatize much? Nobody here is cutting throats, even with scare-quotes.

However, Joseph Smith's behavior with regard to women makes me rise up and say "It figures. Yup, he was a fraud all right, and got what he could while he could."


No dramatisation, and no exaggeration:

Quote:
"Brethren, if I were to tell you all I know of the kingdom of God, I do know that you would rise up and kill me." Brigham arose and said, "Don't tell me anything that I can't bear, for I don't want to apostatize."

(As recalled by Parley P. Pratt in MS 55 (September 4, 1893): 585.)


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 Post subject: Re: Attempted derail from "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:21 am 
God
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DrW wrote:
The record clearly and unequivocally shows that Joseph Smith Jr. was a con man, liar, fraud, polygamist, adulterer, and sexual predator.

~Con Man: Stone looking for treasure that he never produced, while charging for said services.
~Liar: "I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclemation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives....This spiritual wifeism! Why, a man does not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of this....What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjerurs"
~Fraud: Kirtland bank
~Polygamist: Beyond a doubt
~Adulterer: None of his polygamist marriages were legally recognized, some occurred before the restoration of the sealing power........
~Sexual Predator: Fanny Alger et al.

_________________
The ultimate action of a warrior, is to put down his sword.


Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin


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 Post subject: Re: Attempted derail from "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:37 am 
God
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SteelHead wrote:
DrW wrote:
The record clearly and unequivocally shows that Joseph Smith Jr. was a con man, liar, fraud, polygamist, adulterer, and sexual predator.

~Con Man: Stone looking for treasure that he never produced, while charging for said services.
~Liar: "I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclemation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives....This spiritual wifeism! Why, a man does not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of this....What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjerurs"
~Fraud: Kirtland bank
~Polygamist: Beyond a doubt
~Adulterer: None of his polygamist marriages were legally recognized, some occurred before the restoration of the sealing power........
~Sexual Predator: Fanny Alger et al.

Ray should be back to respond shortly.

_________________
“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.”—Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, Page 32


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 Post subject: Re: Attempted derail from "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:43 am 
DrW wrote:
Ray should be back to respond shortly.


I don't pay much attention to MDB apostates.


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 Post subject: Re: Attempted derail from "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:44 am 
God
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RayAgostini wrote:
DrW wrote:
Ray should be back to respond shortly.


I don't pay much attention to MDB apostates.


Was that said sarcastically? As everything you do on this board is in response to MDB apostates.

_________________
The ultimate action of a warrior, is to put down his sword.


Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin


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 Post subject: Re: Attempted derail from "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:53 am 
SteelHead wrote:
Was that said sarcastically? As everything you do on this board is in response to MDB apostates.


Responding doesn't mean I take them seriously.

Reading here just reminds me of Goethe's saying that:

"Nothing is more terrible than ignorance in action."

And it exists here in spades.

Worthy of some kind of "experimentation" as to why people who leave a religion, can still be so obsessed with it, and proving it wrong.

I think it's called "self-justification".


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