I will read it. I know very well where you are coming from. I have attended the so called born again (Boy, was that taken out of context!) services for many years!

I doubt that I have ever heard Mormons use the term"born again" in official meetings. Tell me, gdemetz, when and how does the "born again" experience take place for Mormons? Is it when they step out of the baptismal font and see all that sin being washed away down the drain....when they supposedly receive the "holy ghost" from an elder...or is it when they are interviewed to see if they are a "candidate" for baptism and thus church membership. No tricks questions here gdemetz...just want you to state the Mormon position.

The first principles and ordinances of the gospel are; first, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (which meaning includes enough faith to follow His instructions), and second repentance from sin (which is what the prophets have cried from the very beginning), and third is baptism (born of the water as part of the doctrine that Christ Himself taught and practiced), and fourth is the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost (born of the Spirit) which was done in the primitive church also after every baptism where there was the proper melchezidek priesthood authority to do so (see Hebrews 6th chapter).

Albion,

For me the born again moment was when I was reading a book on quantum mechanics. I realized that this world is not the greater reality. The moment I stepped out of this world my spirit woke up where it had been suppressed for so long. I felt my own spirit and knew I had opened a door. The rest was easy.

I know that any Church of men has problems. So what. But the Church that holds to the "present truth" as stated by Peter is doing OK. And as promised Peter came back after his death to restore the present truth.

2Pe 1:12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
2Pe 1:13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
2Pe 1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath showed me.
2Pe 1:15 Moreover I will endeavor that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

Here Peter is talking to believers in front of him. I also believe this is a prophecy of the future. There will come a time when the present truth will be remembered. This happened when Peter came back and visited Joseph Smith.

Firtstly for gdemetz. I did know that was the Mormon position. It does, of course, vary greatly from the Christian position in that the "born again" experience, when the repentant sinner, under conviction, acknowledges their sinfulness and the need for a saving experience with Christ. At that moment the sinner receives the spirit...the old is done away and the sinner is reborn to new life in Christ. Born again is the Biblical term for spiritual rebirth but whatever term is used to describe it it is that encounter with Christ which results in a change of direction for the one reborn. It is the Christian, and Biblical position, that baptism then follows as the demonstration of what has transpired in the changed heart of the new believer. It was a very real and meaningful experience in my life.

Franktalk, I suppose we all have epithany moments in our lives and I will not dispute yours though Jesus does seem to be conspicuous by his absence. I cannot accept in anyway the references you gave as somehow alluding to or pointing to Joseph Smith...."In times PAST God spoke" to us be his prophets but today we have the fullness of God's grace and the revelation of himself in Christ. I am sorry, but I see absolutely nothing in Joseph Smith's life or character that convinces me of any prophetic calling.

As long as you love God all is well.

Albion, it irks me when you say, "the Christian position! The truly Christian position is the Mormon position! Didn't you read all the scholarly writings I quoted to you about the true meaning of born of the water and Spirit?! These were from non Mormon sources!

Well, gdemetz, since what I post is far and away the position of Christians around the world and the Mormon Church is not viewed as a Christian church I will have to stick with the designation. It wasn't so many years ago that Mormonism did not want to be identified under the banner "Christian" much preferring the term Mormon. I supposes with the softening of Mormon doctrine and the apparent efforts by the Mormon Church to appear mainstream the term Christian has more appeal to it nowadays. It will have to shed a great deal more of its bizarre doctrine before it can truly be termed a Christian church. One just has to look at how the fundamentalist Mormons practice more closely the Mormonism of Smith's day than the Salt Lake church to see how far it has come. I am hopeful that one day the Mormon Church will preach sufficiency in Christ Jesus as the only hope for full salvation.

Agree. Joseph Smith and BY would be much more happier down in Colorado City than in Salt Lake City today.

They are not true Christians, Albion, except in their own minds as you are! They have virtually nothing in common with the church Christ set up; not even the first basic steps! Their baptisms, if done, are often not done properly, and they are done without restored authority! they don't even so much as try to copy the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost! I could write a book about how different apostate Christendom is from the church Christ set up! He absolutely would not recognize it if He came back today! You hypocrites claim the Bible as your authority, but you no more understand it than the man in the moon! Furthermore, your gross spiritual blindness amazes me! Even when I give you a plain simple verse in the Bible which a little child could understand, you can't! You try to twist the meaning of it to fit your own perverted and apostate views! THAT IS WHY A "RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS WAS NEEDED!!!

If bearing a kind of testimony makes you feel better, gdemetz, have at it.

It is not just my testimony, Albion, it is what was taught and practiced, even by Christ, in the NT! There were no altar calls given in the Bible!

gdemetz, usually Mormons resort to "bearing their testimony" when they run out of debate. You persist in the "altar call" issue. An altar call is simply a call to repentance and an invite to follow Christ...a process demonstrated frequently in the NT. Tell me, since you are trying to be clever in using it as a prod......where did Jesus use water in the communion? Is that from the NT? There is far more support in the NT for the general idea of invitations to Jesus than there is for water in the communion.

I also question the water instead of the wine. But there is support for this change.

1 John 5
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

So the witness on the earth is water and not wine. So the use of water is more appropriate than wine.

why leave out verse 6?

This is the one who came through water and blood, Jesus Christ, not by water alone, but by water and blood. The Spirit is the one that testifies, and the Spirit is true.

This is speaking to Jesus' Sacrifice and baptism. What ties His Blood to wine is:

John 6:53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

and

Matthew 26:27 Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you,
28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.
29 I tell you, from now on I shall not drink this fruit of the vine until the day when I drink it with you new in the kingdom of my Father.”

I am not sure what the scriptures quoted have to do with substituting water for wine in the communion especially in view of the avowed legalism of the Mormon position.

I thought it was their Word of Wisdom, prohibiting the consumption of alcohol that brought about the change.

Many churches use pure grape juice perhaps as a concession to alcoholics and to American puritanism. That shouldn't be a problem for Mormons since in my experience many argue, wrongly I think, that the wine that Jesus drank was just grape juice anyway. My experience is that there is something more starkly symbolic in the blood redness of a wine or grape juice filled cup than in one filled with water.

Where in scripture does it say that before Jesus blessed the liquid it was wine? The closest I could find was the man that had the room for the feast was carrying water when he was found.

Also it appears that the wedding at which time Jesus turned water into wine may have been a foreshadow of the last supper. The servants at the wedding who knew the water was turned to wine said nothing. It is not a big deal but I think we all assume it was wine before He blessed it.

If you can find where it says it was wine before the blessing let me know.

Frank,Seems pretty clear there. That is straight from the Lord. No translation errors. No ambiguity. It's right there in black and white.

Albion, you and some others here have missed the boat again, as usual! First of all, there were NO altar calls in the NT! The Mormon doctrine is the NT doctrine restored as I have showed you many times with non Mormon scholarly quotes! Yes, there had to be faith in Christ and repentance, but it was not inviting Christ toi merely come into ones heart! Then, there was the baptism and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost; born of the water and Spirit just as those non Mormon references have stated!

Also, you guys have missed a very important point. Christ told Peter that upon THIS rock (not upon you Peter) I will build my church. That rock was revelation from God! God has always guided HIS PEOPLE by revelation, and it is no different now! Other religions might argue water, wine, or whatever man made doctrine will prevail with their limited intellects, and that is why there are so many man made churches! However, the LDS are led by prophets of God who lets them know what is God's opinion and will! "Surely the Lord will do NOTHING except He first reveal it to (not Albion's minister) His servants the prophets"!