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 Post subject: Simon Southerton De-Diddly-Bunked
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 6:25 am 
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http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/578 ... 1209125776

Reason #1 why Simon Southerton doesn't know what he is talking about.

In 1996, a PhD from Stanford University named Peter Underhill calculated, by using an observed Y-chromosome mutation rate of 2.1/1000 (Weber & Wong) and a generation length of 27 years, that men with the M3 mutation, which is most Native Americans, have a common male ancestor who lived 2147 years prior to 1996 or 151 BC. This was the finding. Underhill concluded that this was not the age of the M3 mutation. There is a difference between the findings and conclusions of scientists and there may also be a difference between the age of M3 and the most recent common ancestor of men with the M3 mutation. Even if the M3 mutation is 10,000 years old, every living male with M3 could still descend from one man who lived in 151BC because other M3 lineages went extinct during the massive population decline that followed the introduction of European diseases. We know for certain that Native Americans (NA) today descend from people who had more resistance to European diseases than other NAs. We don't know for sure how they came by that resistence and partial descent from pre-Columbian settlers from the Near East is not an unreasonable theory. I any case, if most NAs descend from a guy who lived in 151 BC then that man's family history is part of the family history of most NAs. His maternal grandfather would not pass on his Y-chromosme, but he would still be an ancestor of the majority of Native Americans; or, as I prefer to call them, Lamanites.

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 Post subject: Re: Simon Southerton De-Diddly-Bunked
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 6:52 am 
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Context? Most of us here can't view that forum because we're blocked.

Simon responded to Parr's hit piece here: http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com/201 ... -lost.html

Has Parr responded?

If not, then who is at MAD posting as a DNA specialist?

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 Post subject: Re: Simon Southerton De-Diddly-Bunked
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 6:57 am 
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No one. They just keep re affirming how Parr debunked Simon, repeatedly pointing to the same tired claptrap.

Somehow, I think they believe if they repeat their mantra enough, no matter how bogus, some one who is not mormon might buy in to their bad science.

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Last edited by SteelHead on Thu May 24, 2012 7:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Simon Southerton De-Diddly-Bunked
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 6:58 am 
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Kevin Graham wrote:
Context? Most of us here can't view that forum because we're blocked.

Simon responded to Parr's hit piece here: http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com/201 ... -lost.html

Has Parr responded?

If not, then who is at MAD posting as a DNA specialist?

No context, just a post in their "what a ****tard Simon is" thread. Our expert is dourthec****yavenger and gives the following source: Underhill et al, 1996, A pre-Columbian Y chromosome-specific transition and its implications for human evolutionary history , Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 93, 196-200.

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 Post subject: Re: Simon Southerton De-Diddly-Bunked
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:07 am 
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Spurven Ten Sing wrote:
His maternal grandfather would not pass on his Y-chromosme, but he would still be an ancestor of the majority of Native Americans; or, as I prefer to call them, Lamanites.


The majority of Native Americans would prefer that you didn't call them Lamanites because their ancestors came from Asia.

I'm not sure what you are saying about Y chromosome lineages. From mitochondrial DNA studies we know that Native Americans are essentially all descended from Asian ancestors. Most of the unofficial church apologists concede this point. An outdated Y chromosome study from 1996 is not going to turn the mtDNA work on its head. What is the point you are trying to make?

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Last edited by Simon Southerton on Thu May 24, 2012 7:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Simon Southerton De-Diddly-Bunked
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:08 am 
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Simon Southerton wrote:
Spurven Ten Sing wrote:
His maternal grandfather would not pass on his Y-chromosme, but he would still be an ancestor of the majority of Native Americans; or, as I prefer to call them, Lamanites.


The majority of Native Americans would prefer that you didn't call them Lamanites because their ancestors came from Asia.

I'm not sure what you are saying about Y chromosome lineages. From mitochondrial DNA studies we know that Native Americans are essentially all descended from Asian ancestors. Most of the unofficial church apologists concede this point. An outdated Y chromosome study from 1996 is not going to turn the mtDNA work on its head. What is your point?

Don't shoot the messenger! I am a big fan of yours that is quoting a MADite.

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 Post subject: Re: Simon Southerton De-Diddly-Bunked
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:12 am 
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Now that I have been banned from MAD, and it appears the mods are back to hypersensitive mode with the board crossover posts, the old guard defenders at MAD (Pahoran, Schryver, Dan, Loran, Selek etc) can only be happy that their favorite echo chamber is back firmly in their control.

I'm sure Pahoran is especially excited. He's never been one who could handle an intellectual debate.

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 Post subject: Re: Simon Southerton De-Diddly-Bunked
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:13 am 
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1996, eh? That's practically the stone ages as far as genetic research goes.

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 Post subject: Re: Simon Southerton De-Diddly-Bunked
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:14 am 
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Spurven Ten Sing wrote:
Don't shoot the messenger! I am a big fan of yours that is quoting a MADite.


Apologies for unloading like that! Please pass on my kindest regards to the MADites.

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 Post subject: Re: Simon Southerton De-Diddly-Bunked
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:19 am 
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Well, I would say you should post Simon's response over there, but then, what's the point? These folks are afraid to death of facts that disrupt their apologetic worldview.

If Simon does happen to be wrong on any of these minor points, he couldn't possibly be more wrong than say, John Gee, who has committed the more serious academic crimes of flat out dishonesty and willful manipulation of evidence. All they can claim about Simon here, or allege I should say, is that he wasn't up to speed on some questionably relevant point, found in some obscure publication.

Whoopty doo.

The fact is we're all pretty much idiots when it comes to DNA studies, except for a handful. Simon is an expert as is the Dude.

I don't think MAD can boast any of their forum members being experts on that subject. But it is fun to watch how they gleefully accept, uncritically, anything that comes from a NAMIR hit piece. Simon has already responded to it, so if Parr isn't the one responding to his rebuttal, then no one over there has any business pretending to be in a position to judge who is right on this subject. It does seem curious to me that the only DNA experts that FAIR can muster, are Mormon apologists.

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 Post subject: Re: Simon Southerton De-Diddly-Bunked
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:31 am 
Kevin wrote:
It does seem curious to me that the only DNA experts that FAIR can muster, are Mormon apologists


And this is suprising....why? :wink:

Sorry you were banned from MAD, Kev...However, I could have predicted that it was only a matter of time before Dan G had to give into his modern Napolean complex. :lol:

Spurv...on an off-topic note....your avatar is confusing me. You and Bond are using the same picture; I am constantly getting the two of you mixed up at a glance. Any chance you could select a slightly different photo of Obama?


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 Post subject: Re: Simon Southerton De-Diddly-Bunked
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:36 am 
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liz3564 wrote:
Kevin wrote:
It does seem curious to me that the only DNA experts that FAIR can muster, are Mormon apologists


And this is suprising....why? :wink:

Sorry you were banned from MAD, Kev...However, I could have predicted that it was only a matter of time before Dan G had to give into his modern Napolean complex. :lol:

Spurv...on an off-topic note....your avatar is confusing me. You and Bond are using the same picture; I am constantly getting the two of you mixed up at a glance. Any chance you could select a slightly different photo of Obama?


And just as it was in August 2006, they cannot point to any particular thing I said that warranted such action. I broke none of the rules. None. My only crime was to piss off their favorite scholar Dan Peterson by pointing out the fact that he constantly misrepresents me. He is the one who got personal, breaking the rules by starting threads about individuals and creating a board war. People have been banned for doing that in the past, but he knows he gets to play this game in GOD MODE so long as he plays over at MAD.

But hey, I'm the bad guy. And Dan is the victim. Let us never forget that.

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 Post subject: Re: Simon Southerton De-Diddly-Bunked
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 8:00 am 
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Spurven Ten Sing wrote:
No context, just a post in their "what a ****tard Simon is" thread. Our expert is dourthec***yavenger and gives the following source: Underhill et al, 1996, A pre-Columbian Y chromosome-specific transition and its implications for human evolutionary history , Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 93, 196-200.

It really bothers me when people on this forum describe people at MDDB as "c****," and this is the second time that I have seen it happen in the Terrestrial forum in a single week. Please stop.

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 Post subject: Re: Simon Southerton De-Diddly-Bunked
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 8:03 am 
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Kevin Graham wrote:
Most of us here can't view that forum because we're blocked.

Out of curiosity, how are they blocking you?

They tried blocking my account from viewing when they upgraded it to a perma-ban last week, but I just deleted cookies from my MormonDialogue cache and that took care of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Simon Southerton De-Diddly-Bunked
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 8:24 am 
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MsJack wrote:
Kevin Graham wrote:
Most of us here can't view that forum because we're blocked.

Out of curiosity, how are they blocking you?

They tried blocking my account from viewing when they upgraded it to a perma-ban last week, but I just deleted cookies from my MormonDialogue cache and that took care of it.


Yeah I know, but they're really not worth the trouble anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: Simon Southerton De-Diddly-Bunked
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 8:44 am 
MsJack wrote:
Spurven Ten Sing wrote:
No context, just a post in their "what a ****tard Simon is" thread. Our expert is dourthec***yavenger and gives the following source: Underhill et al, 1996, A pre-Columbian Y chromosome-specific transition and its implications for human evolutionary history , Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 93, 196-200.

It really bothers me when people on this forum describe people at MDDB as "c****," and this is the second time that I have seen it happen in the Terrestrial forum in a single week. Please stop.

(Moderator Note) Thank you for pointing this out. Spurv, please do not circumvent the filter. It is against board rules. If this was accidental, next time, just please be mindful of it, and simply edit your own post substituting the *** in those cases. If you have a technical issue that makes editing difficult, please email me or one of the other Mods and we can help. Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Simon Southerton De-Diddly-Bunked
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 8:48 am 
MsJack wrote:
Kevin Graham wrote:
Most of us here can't view that forum because we're blocked.

Out of curiosity, how are they blocking you?

They tried blocking my account from viewing when they upgraded it to a perma-ban last week, but I just deleted cookies from my MormonDialogue cache and that took care of it.

They had my IP address blocked for a while. I am sure that is how they are blocking Kevin. There are plenty of ways to circumvent such a ban if you are so inclined to do so. Kevin was the one who shared with me the various proxy IPs available. :biggrin:

He is right, though....the majority of the posts on MAD aren't really even worth the effort.


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 Post subject: Re: Simon Southerton De-Diddly-Bunked
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 9:11 am 
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liz3564 wrote:
There are plenty of ways to circumvent such a ban if you are so inclined to do so. Kevin was the one who shared with me the various proxy IPs available. :biggrin:

Yeah. They haven't tried blocking my IP, but if they do, I'll just get my husband to help me circumvent it. He is very good with computers. I'm not.

liz3564 wrote:
He is right, though....the majority of the posts on MAD aren't really even worth the effort.

I agree, but context is something I always like to be informed of, and we comment on MDDB threads here often enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Simon Southerton De-Diddly-Bunked
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 9:46 am 
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So let me get this straight. Apologists are claiming that a paper written before the development of high resolution mtDNA analyses, and based on numerical models (instead of directly on results from analysis of thousands of real world samples), trumps more than 50 (mostly later) papers, many of which are based on laboratory data (including high resolution mtDNA data), which show no evidence whatsoever for any contribution of a trans-oceanic migration to the pre-Columbian genome.

Sounds like a typical apologetic claim to me. Must be right. The fact that high resolution mtDNA analysis has been demonstrated capable of tracking the progeny of a single female who migrated to northern Europe from the New World more than 1,000 years ago apparently gives these knowledgeable apologists no cause for doubt in their single favorable published study.

Here is a post I wrote on this subject on another board some time ago. Apologies to those who have seen this. There are those who obviously have not.
________

The well founded sceintific consensus is that there is no pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contribution to the New World Amerindian genome -period. This now rock solid scientific consensus means that the Book of Mormon narrative is pure fiction and fantasy.

There are any number of recently published peer reviewed scientific papers that support this consensus. I recently came across a review paper that listed and described more than 50 studies of Native American DNA, all of which were were consistent with, or directly support, the "no hebrew DNA" findings described in Dr. Simon Southerton's book.

In fact, one of the studies referenced below represents thousands of samples that were analyzed by an LDS supported genetics research institute, the results of which support a single population genetic source for pre-Columbian Amerindians.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/03/080313-AP-native-amer.html

Supportive evidence that has continued accumulated since the publication of Dr. Southerton's book, some of which was obtained using next-gen high resolution mtDNA mapping, has been perfectly consistent with his findings.

For believing Mormons who may not have been paying attention to this issue and have put their faith in apologists who assure them that science is wrong or that the jury is still out on Lehite migration, the statement below concerning the scientific consensus regarding the origin of the pre-Columbian Amerindians may come as a shock.
"Here we show, by using 86 complete mitochondrial genomes, that all Native American haplogroups, including haplogroup X, were part of a single founding population, thereby refuting multiple-migration models." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2427228/?tool=pmcentrez

Below are a few more easily accessed papers that support Dr. Southerton's position.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0000829
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0001764
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071025160653.htm
http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.0030193

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 Post subject: Re: Simon Southerton De-Diddly-Bunked
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:28 pm 
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They had my IP address blocked for a while. I am sure that is how they are blocking Kevin. There are plenty of ways to circumvent such a ban if you are so inclined to do so. Kevin was the one who shared with me the various proxy IPs available. :biggrin:


You can even make it so the IP you allow to be seen looks like it's coming from a different part of the world. But you'd probably have to be associated with DARPA or Russian Intel to know how to do that.....

:wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Simon Southerton De-Diddly-Bunked
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:35 pm 
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bcspace wrote:
Quote:
They had my IP address blocked for a while. I am sure that is how they are blocking Kevin. There are plenty of ways to circumvent such a ban if you are so inclined to do so. Kevin was the one who shared with me the various proxy IPs available. :biggrin:


You can even make it so the IP you allow to be seen looks like it's coming from a different part of the world. But you'd probably have to be associated with DARPA or Russian Intel to know how to do that.....

:wink:



Ahem.

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