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 Post subject: Contradiction in the Book of Mormon?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 5:13 am 
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8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance. (Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi, Chapter 1)


This is what Nephi was told by God circa 590bc.

Yet...

Quote:
The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are among the ancestors of the American Indians. (Book of Mormon, Introduction)


So why didn't God inform Nephi that the land had in fact been inhabited before and hadn't been kept from all other nations as a Land of Promise pending Nephi's groups arrival?

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 Post subject: Re: Contradiction in the Book of Mormon?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 5:20 am 
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Drifting wrote:
So why didn't God inform Nephi that the land had in fact been inhabited before and hadn't been kept from all other nations as a Land of Promise pending Nephi's groups arrival?
And what nations are you claiming settled and conquered the New World in Nephi's day or at any time prior to Columbus? The New World was virtually unknown to any other nation, other than the people living here, until Columbus discovered it.


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 Post subject: Re: Contradiction in the Book of Mormon?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 5:24 am 
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Tobin wrote:
Drifting wrote:
So why didn't God inform Nephi that the land had in fact been inhabited before and hadn't been kept from all other nations as a Land of Promise pending Nephi's groups arrival?
And what nations are you claiming settled and conquered the New World in Nephi's day or at any time prior to Columbus? The New World was virtually unknown to any other nation, other than the people living here, until Columbus discovered it.


I think you are missing the point.

Nephi was told it had been kept from all other nations so that he and his group would have a land of promise. Yet we find out from the BofM itself that this is not true. The America's were supposedly settled by the Jaredites before Nephi arrived. Ergo, it's a contradiction.

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 Post subject: Re: Contradiction in the Book of Mormon?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 5:30 am 
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There may be a reason why the Irish and Mormons don't get along.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan#Th ... nt_Brendan

And a reason why the Irish and the Natives of N. America do.

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 Post subject: Re: Contradiction in the Book of Mormon?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 5:43 am 
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Drifting wrote:
I think you are missing the point.
Nephi was told it had been kept from all other nations so that he and his group would have a land of promise. Yet we find out from the BofM itself that this is not true. The America's were supposedly settled by the Jaredites before Nephi arrived. Ergo, it's a contradiction.
You are under the misconception that the only people the Lord lead here were just the Nephites and Jaredites. That is not true.


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 Post subject: Re: Contradiction in the Book of Mormon?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 5:46 am 
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Tobin wrote:
Drifting wrote:
I think you are missing the point.
Nephi was told it had been kept from all other nations so that he and his group would have a land of promise. Yet we find out from the BofM itself that this is not true. The America's were supposedly settled by the Jaredites before Nephi arrived. Ergo, it's a contradiction.
You are under the misconception that the only people the Lord lead here were just the Nephites and Jaredites. That is not true.


Again, that's not what I am saying.

I am saying that, according to the information contained solely within the Book of Mormon itself, when God informed Nephi that He had kept the America's from the knowledge of all other nations, He was being less than totally honest.

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 Post subject: Re: Contradiction in the Book of Mormon?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 5:48 am 
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Wow!!! A lot more information out there since I first researched the topic!!

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 Post subject: Re: Contradiction in the Book of Mormon?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 8:50 am 
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Drifting wrote:
I am saying that, according to the information contained solely within the Book of Mormon itself, when God informed Nephi that He had kept the America's from the knowledge of all other nations, He was being less than totally honest.
Really? You didn't bother to read 2 Nephi 1:7 now did you? It will give you some context for 2 Nephi 1:8 and your BIG problem will disappear.
Quote:
2 Nephi 1:7 Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever.
2 Nephi 1:8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.
I suppose you could just delete the thread now.


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 Post subject: Re: Contradiction in the Book of Mormon?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 9:26 am 
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Tobin wrote:
Drifting wrote:
I am saying that, according to the information contained solely within the Book of Mormon itself, when God informed Nephi that He had kept the America's from the knowledge of all other nations, He was being less than totally honest.
Really? You didn't bother to read 2 Nephi 1:7 now did you? It will give you some context for 2 Nephi 1:8 and your BIG problem will disappear.
Quote:
2 Nephi 1:7 Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever.
2 Nephi 1:8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.
I suppose you could just delete the thread now.


Your reference is moot as it is saying the land is to be kept hidden until God decides to bring some people there.
This doesn't explain why God told Nephi his was the first group to inhabit the land when clearly it was not.

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 Post subject: Re: Contradiction in the Book of Mormon?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 9:35 am 
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Drifting wrote:
Your reference is moot as it is saying the land is to be kept hidden until God decides to bring some people there.
This doesn't explain why God told Nephi his was the first group to inhabit the land when clearly it was not.
Uh huh, where does it state the Nephite group was the first group in those verses? You really should consider deleting the thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Contradiction in the Book of Mormon?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 9:39 am 
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Tobin wrote:
Drifting wrote:
Your reference is moot as it is saying the land is to be kept hidden until God decides to bring some people there.
This doesn't explain why God told Nephi his was the first group to inhabit the land when clearly it was not.
Uh huh, where does it state the Nephite group was the first group in those verses? You really should consider deleting the thread.


*sigh*

As per the quote in the OP, God tells Nephi the Promised Land has been kept uninhabited pending his groups arrival. (see OP)
Clearly not true. (see Jaredites)

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 Post subject: Re: Contradiction in the Book of Mormon?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 9:42 am 
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Drifting wrote:
As per the quote in the OP, God tells Nephi the Promised Land has been kept uninhabited pending his groups arrival. (see OP)
Clearly not true. (see Jaredites)
So, basically it doesn't state that any where. That is just your imposition on what the text actually says. Nice.


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 Post subject: Re: Contradiction in the Book of Mormon?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 9:44 am 
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Drifting wrote:
Quote:
8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance. (Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi, Chapter 1)


This is what Nephi was told by God circa 590bc.

Yet...

Quote:
The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are among the ancestors of the American Indians. (Book of Mormon, Introduction)


So why didn't God inform Nephi that the land had in fact been inhabited before and hadn't been kept from all other nations as a Land of Promise pending Nephi's groups arrival?


Tobin, what about this OP do you not understand?

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 Post subject: Re: Contradiction in the Book of Mormon?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 9:48 am 
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Drifting wrote:
Tobin, what about this OP do you not understand?
Not a thing now. It is perfectly clear to me that you completely misunderstand the Book of Mormon and just make up stuff and turn it into a problem where no problem actually exists.


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 Post subject: Re: Contradiction in the Book of Mormon?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 10:08 am 
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Tobin wrote:
Drifting wrote:
Tobin, what about this OP do you not understand?
Not a thing now. It is perfectly clear to me that you completely misunderstand the Book of Mormon and just make up stuff and turn it into a problem where no problem actually exists.


So, in circa 590bc God tells Nephi He has kept the America's uninhabited, knowing full well that He hasn't. And that's not a problem?

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 Post subject: Re: Contradiction in the Book of Mormon?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 10:37 am 
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Drifting wrote:
Tobin wrote:
Not a thing now. It is perfectly clear to me that you completely misunderstand the Book of Mormon and just make up stuff and turn it into a problem where no problem actually exists.
So, in circa 590bc God tells Nephi He has kept the America's uninhabited, knowing full well that He hasn't. And that's not a problem?
No, it's not a problem because God never told Nephi that.


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 Post subject: Re: Contradiction in the Book of Mormon?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 12:00 pm 
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Drifting wrote:
Quote:
8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance. (Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi, Chapter 1)


So why didn't God inform Nephi that the land had in fact been inhabited before and hadn't been kept from all other nations as a Land of Promise pending Nephi's groups arrival?


Are we to assume that you consider Nephi's group a "nation" in the context of this post?

Clearly we read your reference stating that this land is being kept from being known of OTHER nations...thus meaning that some nation(s) must already know, since the use of the word "other" implies such.

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 Post subject: Re: Contradiction in the Book of Mormon?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 12:16 pm 
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Drifting wrote:
So why didn't God inform Nephi that the land had in fact been inhabited before and hadn't been kept from all other nations as a Land of Promise pending Nephi's groups arrival?


I think that is a good point, Drifting.

For me, it actually ends up weighing in the Book of Mormon's favor, though.

The reason has to do with the fact that most scholars believe that the translation of the Book of Mormon that we have today started with Mosiah (after the 116 pages were lost) and then went to Moroni, and after that started with what we have today as 1 Nephi and so on up to where Mosiah starts again.

If that is true, Joseph Smith would have known full well that the Jaredites had existed prior to the Nephites because he had already written their entire history before getting to 1 Nephi.

But Nephi is presented as having no idea that people had lived there before him.

In other words, Nephi is speaking from an ignorance understandable from his point in time, taking Nephi as an actual character, but his ignorance is hard to account for if Mosiah through Moroni had already been translated prior to Nephi's words, and if Joseph Smith were the one putting these "ignorant" words in Nephi's mouth.

Whaddya think?

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 Post subject: Re: Contradiction in the Book of Mormon?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 12:30 pm 
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Drifting wrote:
So, in circa 590bc God tells Nephi He has kept the America's uninhabited, knowing full well that He hasn't. And that's not a problem?

did He actually tell Nephi it was "uninhabited"?

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 Post subject: Re: Contradiction in the Book of Mormon?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 12:33 pm 
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consiglieri wrote:
Drifting wrote:
So why didn't God inform Nephi that the land had in fact been inhabited before and hadn't been kept from all other nations as a Land of Promise pending Nephi's groups arrival?


I think that is a good point, Drifting.

For me, it actually ends up weighing in the Book of Mormon's favor, though.

The reason has to do with the fact that most scholars believe that the translation of the Book of Mormon that we have today started with Mosiah (after the 116 pages were lost) and then went to Moroni, and after that started with what we have today as 1 Nephi and so on up to where Mosiah starts again.

If that is true, Joseph Smith would have known full well that the Jaredites had existed prior to the Nephites because he had already written their entire history before getting to 1 Nephi.

But Nephi is presented as having no idea that people had lived there before him.

In other words, Nephi is speaking from an ignorance understandable from his point in time, taking Nephi as an actual character, but his ignorance is hard to account for if Mosiah through Moroni had already been translated prior to Nephi's words, and if Joseph Smith were the one putting these "ignorant" words in Nephi's mouth.

Whaddya think?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri


I think you make an interesting point.
Can you point me in the right direction to research the chronology of the translation of the BofM? (when Joseph did which bit etc)

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 Post subject: Re: Contradiction in the Book of Mormon?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 2:22 pm 
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Drifting wrote:
So why didn't God inform Nephi that the land had in fact been inhabited before and hadn't been kept from all other nations as a Land of Promise pending Nephi's groups arrival?


The land he was in was not supposed to have been inhabited by the Jaredites. The real problem is the Book of Mormon does not mention any of the nations that would already have been living in these areas. There is no way Nephi was going to miss this, especially if you want it in Meso-america. NE states doesn't make it any better. Europeans coming over never had a problem finding many nations of Natives.

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Last edited by Themis on Wed May 23, 2012 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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