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 Post subject: Converting LDS into "Christians" using "Historical Flaws"
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 3:12 pm 
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Doesn't trying to convert Mormons to your flavor of Christianity using flaws in the historical accuracy of the Book of Mormon/Book of Abraham present a problem?

Many events in the Bible have come under severe scrutiny over the years, especially with no evidence of a slave uprising in Egypt or a flee into a desert for 40 years, or even settling afterwards. Battles and wars in cities that may have not even existed at the time and all sorts of other flaws.

Isn't that creating new converts into your faith with a dangerous disposition to eventually flee when an Atheist, for example, attacks the Bible itself using the same tactics??

JMS

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 Post subject: Re: Converting LDS into "Christians" using "Historical Flaws
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 10:49 am 
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evangelicals have never had issue with being, or being perceived as, hypocritical.
I get a sense that most do not care what you believe, just so long as it ain't "mormonism"!
Aside from that, the real conundrum is in why the atheists or the delusional lost souls (like Shulem) give a hoot one way or the other.

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 Post subject: Re: Converting LDS into "Christians" using "Historical Flaws
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 10:58 am 
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I don't know why they bother. The same techniques you use to deconstruct Mormonism work equally well on Christianity in general. That is probably why most ex-Mormons are atheists.


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 Post subject: Re: Converting LDS into "Christians" using "Historical Flaws
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 11:55 am 
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Exactly where, subgenius, do you get this "sense" about evangelicals?


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 Post subject: Re: Converting LDS into "Christians" using "Historical Flaws
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 12:26 pm 
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jskains wrote:
Doesn't trying to convert Mormons to your flavor of Christianity using flaws in the historical accuracy of the Book of Mormon/Book of Abraham present a problem?

Many events in the Bible have come under severe scrutiny over the years, especially with no evidence of a slave uprising in Egypt or a flee into a desert for 40 years, or even settling afterwards. Battles and wars in cities that may have not even existed at the time and all sorts of other flaws.

Isn't that creating new converts into your faith with a dangerous disposition to eventually flee when an Atheist, for example, attacks the Bible itself using the same tactics??

JMS


Elder Marlin K. Jensen, Mormon Times, Nov 19, 2009:

Quote:
Our history is especially critical, because in a sense, we rise or fall with our history. If those early beginning stories that Joseph Smith told us are true, then we are the only true church as we contend. If they're not true, then we don't have what we purport to have.

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We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: Converting LDS into "Christians" using "Historical Flaws
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 4:32 pm 
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Tobin wrote:
That is probably why most ex-Mormons are atheists.


They generalize that if one item is made up, thn all must be made up. Perhaps at some point they will come to realize the comfort which can be had in a faith tradition and wisdom that can be contained in sacred allegory.

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 Post subject: Re: Converting LDS into "Christians" using "Historical Flaws
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 10:27 pm 
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Quote:
Doesn't trying to convert Mormons to your flavor of Christianity using flaws in the historical accuracy of the Book of Mormon/Book of Abraham present a problem?


It does if said Mormon is a rational thinker. Since Mormonism is the pinnacle of Christianity, Atheism is the only place to go if the LDS Church isn't true. I firmly believe that a former Mormon who is now some other flavor of Christianity isn't likely to have been a believing Mormon in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: Converting LDS into "Christians" using "Historical Flaws
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 11:32 pm 
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bcspace wrote:
Quote:
Doesn't trying to convert Mormons to your flavor of Christianity using flaws in the historical accuracy of the Book of Mormon/Book of Abraham present a problem?


It does if said Mormon is a rational thinker. Since Mormonism is the pinnacle of Christianity, Atheism is the only place to go if the LDS Church isn't true. I firmly believe that a former Mormon who is now some other flavor of Christianity isn't likely to have been a believing Mormon in the first place.


Do you believe in the same Christ as the rest of Christianity, or do you agree with Hinckley?

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 Post subject: Re: Converting LDS into "Christians" using "Historical Flaws
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 7:39 am 
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bcspace wrote:
Quote:
Doesn't trying to convert Mormons to your flavor of Christianity using flaws in the historical accuracy of the Book of Mormon/Book of Abraham present a problem?


It does if said Mormon is a rational thinker. Since Mormonism is the pinnacle of Christianity, Atheism is the only place to go if the LDS Church isn't true. I firmly believe that a former Mormon who is now some other flavor of Christianity isn't likely to have been a believing Mormon in the first place.


Mormonism is a backwater Wasatch Front sect. No one cares about it but a tiny portion of the population. Most people who are familiar with it think it's weird and hilarious.

Sorry to burst your little bubble.

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B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
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 Post subject: Re: Converting LDS into "Christians" using "Historical Flaws
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:54 am 
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Quote:
Do you believe in the same Christ as the rest of Christianity, or do you agree with Hinckley?


Both. It is the same Christ that the rest of christianity speaks of, yet said christianity has applied erroneous properties and doctrines to him or removed them.

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Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
A lesson on 'Faggotry' for Kevin Graham; a legitimately descriptive and even positive term used by homosexuals themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Converting LDS into "Christians" using "Historical Flaws
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 11:15 am 
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bcspace wrote:
Quote:
Do you believe in the same Christ as the rest of Christianity, or do you agree with Hinckley?


Both. It is the same Christ that the rest of christianity speaks of, yet said christianity has applied erroneous properties and doctrines to him or removed them.


You can't take both. One or the other. Hinckley explicitly said it was a DIFFERENT Christ.

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Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: Converting LDS into "Christians" using "Historical Flaws
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 11:22 am 
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Quote:
Both. It is the same Christ that the rest of christianity speaks of, yet said christianity has applied erroneous properties and doctrines to him or removed them.

Quote:
You can't take both.


Sure you can. It's called context. For example, it's literally the same Jesus we are reading about in our respective Bibles.

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Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
A lesson on 'Faggotry' for Kevin Graham; a legitimately descriptive and even positive term used by homosexuals themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Converting LDS into "Christians" using "Historical Flaws
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 11:28 am 
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bcspace wrote:

Sure you can. It's called context. For example, it's literally the same Jesus we are reading about in our respective Bibles.


Again, you're directly contradicting Hinckley.

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Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: Converting LDS into "Christians" using "Historical Flaws
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 2:39 pm 
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I suspect that the real reason many Mormons who leave, mostly those born Mormon, give up on Christianity is because they have been bombarded since birth with the idea that orthodoxy and its foundational scripture, the Bible, are corrupt and in a state of decay both morally and spiritually. Mormonism can only be effectively planted in the minds of its adherents by tearing down the foundations of the faith it wishes to supplant. Mormonism works to destroy the entire credibility of orthodox Christianity and its "professors" so as to make any thought of joining them after Mormonism totally out of the question for most. In a previous age we called it brainwashing. Converts to Mormonism who escape its control generally have no problem returning to orthodoxy because they haven't grown up with the incessant attacks and likely never fully placed that orthodoxy in the box in which Mormonism wishes to confine it. It is the same tactic used by all similar groups to Mormons, Moonies and JWs. It has also been an effective method for diverse groups such as Scientologists and communists. Destroy all trust in what exists then you are able to supplant it with your idea of how things should be.


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 Post subject: Re: Converting LDS into "Christians" using "Historical Flaws
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 4:21 pm 
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Albion, I suspect you like to pick fights with gdemetz. This post is going to set him right off.


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 Post subject: Re: Converting LDS into "Christians" using "Historical Flaws
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:46 pm 
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jskains wrote:
Doesn't trying to convert Mormons to your flavor of Christianity using flaws in the historical accuracy of the Book of Mormon/Book of Abraham present a problem?

Many events in the Bible have come under severe scrutiny over the years, especially with no evidence of a slave uprising in Egypt or a flee into a desert for 40 years, or even settling afterwards. Battles and wars in cities that may have not even existed at the time and all sorts of other flaws.

Isn't that creating new converts into your faith with a dangerous disposition to eventually flee when an Atheist, for example, attacks the Bible itself using the same tactics??

JMS


Perhaps, as an Evangelical approaches scripture, it could be the same result.

Catholics and main-line Protestants (Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians) do not approach scripture in the same way as Evangelicals or Mormons.

A gospel is not a psalm, a psalm is not an apocalypse, a poetic books is not a history, a history is not a fable, a genealogy is not a wisdom. In other words, we understand that not everything is to be interpreted literally, or even understood in the same way, one genre to another. Bible History is with a view to Salvation, that is, God's work among His people. The Bible authors were not professional writers or historians. The OT writers convey Salvation History, in a context of human history. The details of human history are not given importance.

At any rate, the culture, language, religious rites, etc. described in the OT exist, to this day. The Book of Mormon lacks a cultural context. The anachronisms are just a sign of this. Mormonism also pulls God out of human history. Humans not worthy of God, God works around humans, instead of in and through us. This removes God from human history, which is how Mormons view all scripture. The only way to reconcile the Book of Mormon to the Bible is to remove the Bible from its humanness, to put it in the same existence as the Book of Mormon.

A convert from Mormonsim to Christianity has to learn how to understand the Bible without referencing it to the Book of Mormon, and other Mormon scripture. Converts from Evangelical and Mormon backgrounds have to learn the four senses of scripture. The literal sense, using exegesis, and the three spiritual senses, allegory, moral and anagogy.

The Letter speaks of deeds
Allegory to faith
The Moral how to act
Anagogy our destiny

All that being said, the greatest problem the Book of Mormon has on a historical point, is the supposed authors claiming to be in the act of writing scripture for a future generation and/or people. It puts the Book of Mormon into the need of historical accuracy that doesn't exist in the Bible. The authors of the Bible make no indication they considered their writings important enough to be scripture. They were important to the people, the communities, from where they themselves existed. It was only over a length of time that the descending communities compiled older writings and oral stories into a compilation of sacred texts.

The Book of Mormon lacks this growth, and claims to be scripture from before the moment the words were written down. Makes it more difficult to give allowance for historical error, as the stories are supposedly real-time,not an outgrowth from a community of believers who had shared and compiled stories over a length of time. One expects to find differences in historical fact in such a case. The Book of Mormon doesn't have this "luxury".

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 Post subject: Re: Converting LDS into "Christians" using "Historical Flaws
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 1:16 am 
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madeleine wrote:
At any rate, the culture, language, religious rites, etc. described in the OT exist, to this day. The Book of Mormon lacks a cultural context. The anachronisms are just a sign of this. Mormonism also pulls God out of human history. Humans not worthy of God, God works around humans, instead of in and through us. This removes God from human history, which is how Mormons view all scripture. The only way to reconcile the Book of Mormon to the Bible is to remove the Bible from its humanness, to put it in the same existence as the Book of Mormon.
The BofM was heavily edited and pulled from the records of the Nephites. It was never meant as a comprehensive guide on the culture, language, religious rites, etc of the Nephite people. The aim of the Book of Mormon is to clearly get people to speak directly with God. I believe the events around the Book of Mormon was contrived by God for just this purpose.
madeleine wrote:
All that being said, the greatest problem the Book of Mormon has on a historical point, is the supposed authors claiming to be in the act of writing scripture for a future generation and/or people. It puts the Book of Mormon into the need of historical accuracy that doesn't exist in the Bible. The authors of the Bible make no indication they considered their writings important enough to be scripture. They were important to the people, the communities, from where they themselves existed. It was only over a length of time that the descending communities compiled older writings and oral stories into a compilation of sacred texts.
The Bible suffers the same historical problems. There just is no evidence of a historical Adam and Eve, Moses, great flood, Abraham, and so on. People who claim the Bible is historical and the BofM isn't are just being hypocritical. A book of fiction set in historical situations doesn't make that book non-fiction.
madeleine wrote:
The Book of Mormon lacks this growth, and claims to be scripture from before the moment the words were written down. Makes it more difficult to give allowance for historical error, as the stories are supposedly real-time,not an outgrowth from a community of believers who had shared and compiled stories over a length of time. One expects to find differences in historical fact in such a case. The Book of Mormon doesn't have this "luxury".
The Book of Mormon is as authentic as the Bible. Its claim is God will tell you that it is from him. That is easy to verify in fact. All you have to do is ask and if God doesn't show up and tell you it is true, it isn't. The same can be said of the Bible. Without a real God to back it up, it is just fiction.


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 Post subject: Re: Converting LDS into "Christians" using "Historical Flaws
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 8:33 am 
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Tobin, gdemetz wasn't even on my mind when I posted. Besides, I think he is too busy loading his scatter gun to even notice this thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Converting LDS into "Christians" using "Historical Flaws
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 11:03 am 
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Quote:
The Bible suffers the same historical problems. There just is no evidence of a historical Adam and Eve, Moses, great flood, Abraham, and so on. People who claim the Bible is historical and the BofM isn't are just being hypocritical. A book of fiction set in historical situations doesn't make that book non-fiction.


There has to be some historicity to them in order for Christianity and the LDS Church to be true. The Book of Mormon truth claims have a lot to do with historicity; those peoples must have existed.

Quote:
Sure you can. It's called context. For example, it's literally the same Jesus we are reading about in our respective Bibles.
Quote:
Again, you're directly contradicting Hinckley.


I agree with him completely in context.

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Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
A lesson on 'Faggotry' for Kevin Graham; a legitimately descriptive and even positive term used by homosexuals themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Converting LDS into "Christians" using "Historical Flaws
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 11:16 am 
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bcspace wrote:

I agree with him completely in context.


By "in context" you mean only if you completely twist his words.

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Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: Converting LDS into "Christians" using "Historical Flaws
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 5:27 pm 
CTR A

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jskains wrote:
Doesn't trying to convert Mormons to your flavor of Christianity using flaws in the historical accuracy of the Book of Mormon/Book of Abraham present a problem?

Many events in the Bible have come under severe scrutiny over the years, especially with no evidence of a slave uprising in Egypt or a flee into a desert for 40 years, or even settling afterwards. Battles and wars in cities that may have not even existed at the time and all sorts of other flaws.

Isn't that creating new converts into your faith with a dangerous disposition to eventually flee when an Atheist, for example, attacks the Bible itself using the same tactics??

JMS


Hello JMS,

People are free to believe in things that aren't true and no one will attempt to convince them otherwise unless that belief is causing (or perceived to be causing) a problem in the individuals life. People can believe in a flat earth, space aliens, or the loch ness monster without anyone coming around attempting to enlighten them.
If an individual believes in the bible he is still free to join any number of churches or none at all. With regards to the book of Mormon there are numerous mormon branches one can become involved with, however, through some twisted logic, the claim is being made that if the Book of Mormon is true then the individual must do this and that. If after an individual chooses to believe in the Book of Mormon he was free to make life decisions without missionaries with their own agenda telling him what God wants then deprograming individuals with regards to the Book of Mormon.

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