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 Post subject: Re: A Blistering Account of DCP's Scholarship
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 9:44 pm 
Why Australia will never go "Sharia". Most Aussies feel that Muslims are very welcome here, even though they dislike government "PC" and accommodation to "ethnics". Their message is simple - if they bow too far to PC, they'll be voted out of office. Go to Mecca, pray five times a day, but don't impose your culture on us (female circumcision is banned in every Australian state, and radical "Jihad" Muslims are frequently deported):

NO ANZAC DAY CELEBRATION - WTF !.


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 Post subject: Re: A Blistering Account of DCP's Scholarship
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 1:40 am 
God
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My point, to be basic and blunt, Kevin, is that posting pictures of radical extremist Muslims does not do justice to the other 950,000 Muslims (speculating of course) on the planet. It's sloganeering, or making very superficial judgements of a religion that incline people towards hatred of a group, or a people.


You are again hopping all over the place. Those photos from various countries prove that Islam is not just like any other religion. It is far more intolerant. And while you think it is presumptuous to say all other Muslims would agree with them, that was never what I said.

But since you bring it up, it is equally presumptuous of you to suggest that the majority of the Muslim world doesn't agree with these folks. After all, where is all the outrage by Muslims who disagree with their intolerance and extremism? They are mostly silent because in Islamic law, you're not supposed to take sides against fellow Muslims.

You don't see Hindus, or Catholics or Baptists or Mormons taking to the streets calling for the deaths of everyone else who isn't a member of their faith. Or of anyone who dares to express criticism of Muhammad, etc.

Quote:
Australia doesn't have a "problem" with Sharia "becoming law".


Ray, you're not getting it. Sharia already is law for many Australian Muslims and they are practicing it in secret.

Quote:
And primarily because most Muslims oppose it!.


Can you support that assertion?

I think what you mean to say is that the Sufis who ride in your taxi oppose it. The fact is Muslims in Australia are already practicing it in secret and the majority agree with it, even those who were born and raised in Australia.

Quote:
The research by academics Ann Black and Kerrie Sadiq says a system of "legal pluralism" abounds in modern Australia, with religious ceremonies validating multiple wives or even underage ones.

It’s the second story in as many days pointing to a sharia underground where some groups are enforcing religious laws that may break our own secular ones.

In this case two men have been charged with breaking into a Muslim convert’s house and whipping him 40 times in his bed for allegedly having a drink.

Sharia is based on Muslim teachings in the Koran but is open to interpretation by different religious leaders – an extreme form is seen enacted by the Taliban in Afghanistan.

It has potential cultural conflicts with Australian law over points including alcohol, marriage and charging of interest on loans. While there has been a push to adopt sharia here the Attorney General says existing laws win out.


Yeah, there is no problem at all there Ray. Here is another indicator on sharia acceptance in Australian Muslim communities:

Quote:
A LAWYER has revealed he has prepared more than 1000 wills for Australian Muslims using Islamic law, while other lawyers and Muslim leaders say sharia is used informally by most of the Islamic community.


The [urlhttp://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-05-17/muslim-group-wants-sharia-law-in-australia/2717096]Australian Federation of Islamic Councils[/url] wants Australia to allow Muslims to practice sharia and it has already been jumping through the necessary legal/political hoops to get this ball rolling. This isn't a matter of making Australia switch laws for all citizens to comply, but rather to allow Muslims to practice their own form of jurisprudence as a sub-culture.

Here is a video clip of interviewed Muslims in Australia who insist sharia comes before Australian law:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/07/shari ... ralia.html

Finally, I should note that Khaled Abou El Fadl -professor of Islamic law at UCLA and the author most recently of "The Place of Tolerance in Islam'" - make it perfectly clear that, "Shariah and Islam are inseparable, and one cannot be without the other."

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 Post subject: Re: A Blistering Account of DCP's Scholarship
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 2:39 am 
Kevin Graham wrote:
Ray, you're not getting it. Sharia already is law for many Australian Muslims and they are practicing it in secret.


You underestimate my "intelligence", not personal, but intelligence sources. I've already told you Kevin, I know what goes on, and this very subject is discussed among Muslims, yep, even on cab ranks. These are renegades, and only a very small minority, and they will never have the stamp of approval, from Australians or from the majority of Muslims who live in Australia.

Get it through to your head, man. You're assessing it on media reports while I'm at the source. Every argument for introducing "Muslim ideals" has been thoroughly knocked back, including the one that allowing polygamy would "reduce brothel visits" by men. That was seriously advocated by some Muslim leaders, and thoroughly laughed to scorn. I know that some Muslim men advocate it, and practice it. We can go into a whole "underworld" of Muslim male practice here that I'd rather not address because Google picks up everything, and it's not a simple subject. You also seriously underestimate the "secularising" factor of Australian Muslims, and why pre-20th century Islamic ideals are all but dead, except in the minds of a minority. It simply doesn't work here as it does in Saudi Arabia, and even there Islam is largely lived in ideal, but seldom in reality, and they have the same problems facing Muslim communities elsewhere.

Imams help gay Muslims embrace new social identities.

Sorry, Kev, but you're on the trail of a bogeyman here, a bogeyman that doesn't exist, i.e., "radical Islam" and it's supposed "threat". If there's any threat, it is that eventually fundamental Islam will totally disintegrate and "secularise". The shouting and screaming placard-waving hoardes are more representative of a drowning man crying for help while the social and secular currents slowly drown him. That's all it is.

Kevin Graham wrote:
I think what you mean to say is that the Sufis who ride in your taxi oppose it. The fact is Muslims in Australia are already practicing it in secret and the majority agree with it, even those who were born and raised in Australia.


"Ride in my taxi"? lol. I've already told you - I work for a Muslim, and the Muslims I encounter are not those who "ride in my taxi", but taxi drivers I regularly speak with, and some of whom are personal friends. You're not paying attention, Kev, and you underestimate human hypocrisy and the realities.

A minority of Muslims will always try to impose their view of Islam on Australians, and other Australian Muslims, but this has a snowflake's chance in hell of surviving. Your view of the "Islamic threat" is a wild goose chase, in terms of how it is actually received in countries like Australia, by both Muslims and non-Muslims. Fundamental Islam has no chance of surviving in Australia - none whatsoever! It is all as good as dead and buried, with no hope of any kind of "resurrection". If you wanted to go on a serious crusade, then it should be to save Islam, not condemn it, but of course I say that in jest.


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 Post subject: Re: A Blistering Account of DCP's Scholarship
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 3:24 am 
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You underestimate my "intelligence", not personal, but intelligence sources. I've already told you Kevin, I know what goes on


Yes, you told me that. But you have given no compelling reason to believe that. You have some Muslim friends... that's your authority that trumps my numerous scholars of Islamic jurisprudence?

Quote:
These are renegades, and only a very small minority, and they will never have the stamp of approval, from Australians or from the majority of Muslims who live in Australia.


You clearly cannot back up this claim that they are a "minority." You don't even understand the difference between Sufi, Shia, Wahabbi or Sunni, so forgive me if I reject the significance or your intelligence (not the personal kind). You'd have me believe that the media reports from within Australia, including the studies done by the experts I mentioned, are all conspiring against your Muslim friends.

Quote:
Get it through to your head, man. You're assessing it on media reports while I'm at the source


The source!?! You know a few Muslims, probably Sufis, and so their views must represent the majority of a billion people because... you say so?

Quote:
Every argument for introducing "Muslim ideals" has been thoroughly knocked back, including the one that allowing polygamy would "reduce brothel visits" by men


Of course it has. Look, I never said Australian law would accept it. I'm saying it is a problem because they cannot stop it from being practiced among Australian Muslims. They're doing it behind closed doors and they only find out about it when individual incidents are reported by a raped or abused woman. In which case, the most authorities can do is arrest the offender. They can't arrest the Imam who gave him religious permission to abuse his wife or rape his maid or whatever. Islamic law will always be with Australia so long as there are Muslims willing to practice it secretly and the fact is the religious authorities in Australia overwhelmingly embrace it. After all, without it, they wouldn't be religious authorities!

Quote:
You also seriously underestimate the "secularising" factor of Australian Muslims, and why pre-20th century Islamic ideals are all but dead, except in the minds of a minority


All you are doing is reiterating your previous asserted position, but your only source of authority is anecdote. You have not dealt with any of the evidence to the contrary except to hand wave it aside as "the media!" I've provided enough information to disprove your claim that pre-20th century ideals are "all but dead." If that were true then sharia wouldn't be such a problem in Australia and there wouldn't be media reporting on it regularly.

Are Muslims becoming more secular in the West? Of course they are, but they are hardly the majority. But in these cases, we're not talking about Islam now are we? We're talking about a completely different religion, one that is learning to accept western values while gradually abandoning traditional Islamic values, such as the primacy of sharia law. To most Muslims, without sharia, there is no Islam. The younger generations are looking to this as outdated, as they become more influenced by western society. But they do not represent a majority n Australia yet. And they'll never represent a majority in Muslim countries where there state laws are sharia laws.

Quote:
It simply doesn't work here as it does in Saudi Arabia


On the contrary, it works quite well for Muslims who enjoy living it. There is nothing in Australian law to prevent them from practicing it. There is no enforcement against it until they find out, and they usually only find out about it when someone convicted of sharia crimes comes turns up dead or beaten. But they can't stop it from being practiced.

Quote:
"Ride in my taxi"? lol. I've already told you - I work for a Muslim, and the Muslims I encounter are not those who "ride in my taxi", but taxi drivers I regularly speak with, and some of whom are personal friends.


Oh OK, so your sample pool is much smaller than I orginally thought. I'm not sure how this works in your favor. So you work among Muslims who think sharia law is garbage? Really? Are they Sufis as well? How does this change the fact that most Australian Muslims support Sharia? Australia is a big country, after all.

Quote:
You're not paying attention, Kev, and you underestimate human hypocrisy and the realities.


You lost me there.

Quote:
A minority of Muslims will always try to impose their view of Islam on Australians


Yes, like that Imam you cited earlier. He is a minority Sufi. But no one really "imposes" anything on them. They learn this stuff from their traditions. Most educated Muslims in the western world actually do read the Quran. There really isn't much that need to be "imposed" onto them.

Quote:
and other Australian Muslims, but this has a snowflake's chance in hell of surviving


But it is surviving Ray. That you think it is going to die a slow or quick death, is really irrelevant to the fact that it is alive and well and the majority of them want it to stay. And the reason being, sharia and true Islam cannot be divorced from one another. Sharia is integral to what Islam is. Anything else is basically another religion altogether, and so you really have no business calling it Islam. Again, this is like trying to defend the Book of Mormon as fiction, based on conversations you've had with RLDS members, and then insisting this is what "Mormonism" is about.

Quote:
Your view of the "Islamic threat" is a wild goose chase, in terms of how it is actually received in countries like Australia, by both Muslims and non-Muslims.


I have scientific data backing up what I say. Polls taken in Muslim countries on questions of terrorism in general, the tragedy on 9/11, feelings towards the western world, etc. Do you understand how many Muslims in the Middle East consider Osama bin Ladin a freedom fighter and his cause just? Pakistan is the second largest Muslim country in the world with over 134 million, and polls shortly after 9/11 indicate a 65% approval rating for bin Ladin. In non-Arab Indonesia, the largest Muslim population of nearly 200 million, 50% view bin Ladin as a "justice fighter" and 65% do not see him as a terrorist. Taken together that's nearly 200 million supporters from just two countries! Most Muslims in the western world migrated from this part of the world, and they bring with them their traditions. You'll probably have to wait another two or three generations before western society manages to squeeze that out of their culture.

Quote:
Fundamental Islam has no chance of surviving in Australia - none whatsoever! It is all as good as dead and buried, with no hope of any kind of "resurrection". If you wanted to go on a serious crusade, then it should be to save Islam, not condemn it, but of course I say that in jest.


If "fundamental" Islam is the bad stuff that modern Muslims are abandoning, then why would anyone want to save it? You're not making any sense, and you're really kidding yourself if you think you can get a firm grasp of what more than 500 million people believe (majority of a billion) just because you know some Muslims in Australia.

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 Post subject: Re: A Blistering Account of DCP's Scholarship
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 4:07 am 
Have a nice day, Kevin. I don't dislike you, and I don't even want to go there.

Is it possible for you to say in two paragraphs, what you say in 50? lol.

You're a restless soul, Kev, and have an urgent need to be ever-right, to win every argument, and to counter everyone who holds a different opinion to yours. Ponder whether this might be some kind of liability. You don't listen, and you don't heed any opinion other than yours.

After all these years, I still think that Mormonism made you a better person, than the bitter and angry soul you've become.

I hope you find peace.


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 Post subject: Re: A Blistering Account of DCP's Scholarship
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 4:25 am 
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Ray,

You're kind of all over the place.

First you state that, "Dr. Peterson is a tutor/lecturer in Islamic studies and Arabic at BYU. To say that he "sit[s] around writing 'hit pieces' all day long" seems to be in the category of the Krispy Kreme myth."

You were thoroughly refuted.

Then you transition to arguing against the notion that Islam is an intolerant religion. You were thoroughly refuted, and the only evidence you could muster is anecdotal.

Then you fall back on the Hitler fallacy combo'd up with a "I feel sorry for you" ad hominem.

What the Hell? Is that the best you have? This is twice now, in this thread, where you resort to ad hominem to make your point. It's a very weak position to take.

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 Post subject: Re: A Blistering Account of DCP's Scholarship
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 4:41 am 
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
What the Hell? Is that the best you have? This is twice now, in this thread, where you resort to ad hominem to make your point. It's a very weak position to take.


I'm genuinely sorry that I'm not as intelligent, sharp, broad-minded, patient, and dare I say, as "Christlike" as you are. I'm pretty reliant on mercy and forgiveness, because I believe there is a God, and no matter what we say, do, or lecture others about, in the end we're still going to have to confront the "man in the mirror".

So you win. I'm okay with that.


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 Post subject: Re: A Blistering Account of DCP's Scholarship
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 7:18 am 
God
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RayAgostini wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
What the Hell? Is that the best you have? This is twice now, in this thread, where you resort to ad hominem to make your point. It's a very weak position to take.


I'm genuinely sorry that I'm not as intelligent, sharp, broad-minded, patient, and dare I say, as "Christlike" as you are. I'm pretty reliant on mercy and forgiveness, because I believe there is a God, and no matter what we say, do, or lecture others about, in the end we're still going to have to confront the "man in the mirror".

So you win. I'm okay with that.


Now you're playing the victim card? Maybe you're closer to Islam than you think. ;) If you want to have an on-point conversation about Islam then I'm on board, but I'd like you to pick a topic and stick to it.

- VRDRC

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 Post subject: Re: A Blistering Account of DCP's Scholarship
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 3:22 pm 
Carton wrote:
That, my friends, is not bad for doing nothing but sitting around writing "hit pieces" all day long. Not to mention the annual trips to exotic places around the world.


Ray wrote:
Dr. Peterson is a tutor/lecturer in Islamic studies and Arabic at BYU. To say that he "sit[s] around writing 'hit pieces' all day long" seems to be in the category of the Krispy Kreme myth.

But nevertheless, Carry On


Cam wrote:
It is hard to see why anyone would have that impression of him, no?

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/authors/?authorID=1

- VRDRC


I don't really see how your list disproves Ray's statement. Yes, I understand that there are a lot of publications here which involve MI. So what? The fact remains that, in addition to writing whatever he writes for MI, he is still a full-time Professor in the Islamic Studies department at BYU. As an Instructor in the Higher Education field, I can tell you that it is extremely time consuming. I only work part-time currently, and even so, the pace is unreal.

Your list doesn't include his current teaching schedule, his mandated office hours for students, or his travel schedule.

And yes, the donut thing is really silly, too. Dan doesn't even actually like Krispy Kreme. He prefers Dunkin' Donuts, I believe.

(Silly man! Krispy Kremes are amazing! :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: A Blistering Account of DCP's Scholarship
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 3:29 pm 
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Hi Liz,

You don't see his CV, his current MI activity, and his online posting habits as supporting Carton's statement?

Huh. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

- VRDRC

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Last edited by Doctor CamNC4Me on Sun May 20, 2012 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A Blistering Account of DCP's Scholarship
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 3:55 pm 
God
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Quote:
The fact remains that, in addition to writing whatever he writes for MI, he is still a full-time Professor in the Islamic Studies department at BYU. As an Instructor in the Higher Education field, I can tell you that it is extremely time consuming. I only work part-time currently, and even so, the pace is unreal.


No one is questioning whether he has a job teaching Arabic at BYU. But just google the names of other Islam experts at comparable Universities and you'll see that the bulk of what they publish is related to Islam. You say Dan's time is limited, but we already know this isn't true. He is obsessed, I mean seriously obsessed with online criticism of his faith. I remember way back in 1997 he and I used to tag team against Evangelicals on the Walter Martin discussion forum. Even as an apologist I used to ask myself, where does this guy get the time? Morning, afternoon, late afternoon, early evening, to the wee hours of the morning... you could find him posting somewhere online and he never managed to engage an actual debate or civil discussion as he keeps pretended to have interest in.

As noted earlier, he argued that this forum is toxic and all should avoid it at all costs, and yet he posted more than 7,000 times over the course of a few years. This doesn't even include his sock puppetry activities over at the ex-Mormon forum, or on my previous forum where he posted as "fritz" or the posts he makes over at MAD. But more to the point, he is editor of a publication whose primary goal is to make anti-Mormons look as dishonest and as stupid as possible. It has become so integral to what the MI/FARMS essentially is, that he doesn't even notice it anymore. He is a hypocrite, no questions asked because he will call someone disingenuous and then complain when someone like myself calls one of his buddies at BYU disingenuous. People like John Gee, who is a flat out embarrassment to his profession. I can't think of another Islamist who spends nearly as much time doing these kinds of things, except for maybe Juan Cole from the U of Michigan. But at least Cole's apologetic riff raff is related to his field of expertise: Islam.

And now I see Dan has decided to become a blowhard on political matters, attacking Obama regularly, based on what his favorite Right Wing propaganda venue tells him. He even attacks Elizabeth Warren on his blog because she claims to have Indian ancestry. I mean this guy is every bit the bigot towards Liberals and the evil "Left" as I ever was towards Islam. Just read some of the idiotic nonsense he posts. It is like watching Loran Blood without the illiteracy issues.

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 Post subject: Re: A Blistering Account of DCP's Scholarship
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 4:15 pm 
B.H. Roberts Chair of Mopologetic Studies
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Yeah, DCP's publications are almonst entirely apologetic, almonst entirely FARMS- or MI-related. And the thing of it is, he himself helped to negotiate with BYU so that FARMS publications could count towards promotion and salary decisions. I would be willing to bet that DCP's contract divides up his duties--e.g., 40/40/20, where forty percent of his time is supposed to be spent teaching, another forty for research, and so on. Somewhere in his contract there is going to be something stipulating his writing and/or research requirements, and the thing is, he gets to count his FARMS editorials, many of which are extremely nasty.

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 Post subject: Re: A Blistering Account of DCP's Scholarship
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 4:26 pm 
God
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
Yeah, DCP's publications are almonst entirely apologetic, almonst entirely FARMS- or MI-related. And the thing of it is, he himself helped to negotiate with BYU so that FARMS publications could count towards promotion and salary decisions. I would be willing to bet that DCP's contract divides up his duties--e.g., 40/40/20, where forty percent of his time is supposed to be spent teaching, another forty for research, and so on. Somewhere in his contract there is going to be something stipulating his writing and/or research requirements, and the thing is, he gets to count his FARMS editorials, many of which are extremely nasty.


I wouldn't be surprised if his 20 (service to the larger community) included what some would interpret as apologetic work, too.


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 Post subject: Re: A Blistering Account of DCP's Scholarship
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 4:37 pm 
B.H. Roberts Chair of Mopologetic Studies
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Morley wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:
Yeah, DCP's publications are almonst entirely apologetic, almonst entirely FARMS- or MI-related. And the thing of it is, he himself helped to negotiate with BYU so that FARMS publications could count towards promotion and salary decisions. I would be willing to bet that DCP's contract divides up his duties--e.g., 40/40/20, where forty percent of his time is supposed to be spent teaching, another forty for research, and so on. Somewhere in his contract there is going to be something stipulating his writing and/or research requirements, and the thing is, he gets to count his FARMS editorials, many of which are extremely nasty.


I wouldn't be surprised if his 20 (service to the larger community) included what some would interpret as apologetic work, too.


Good point. He probably counts "Mormon Scholars Testify," and his various watered-down "Mormon Times" articles, along with some of his travel and firesides and things of that nature. It would be hilarious if he tried to count his messageboard posts. Or, I wonder if he counts those free cruises he takes?

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 Post subject: Re: A Blistering Account of DCP's Scholarship
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 8:35 pm 
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I don't care how Daniel or any other MI person earns their bread, so long as it doesn't involve slamming members of the LDS Church in good standing.

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 Post subject: Re: A Blistering Account of DCP's Scholarship
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 11:12 pm 
God
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Kishkumen wrote:
I don't care how Daniel or any other MI person earns their bread, so long as it doesn't involve slamming members of the LDS Church in good standing.


What about slamming non-members, or former members?

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 Post subject: Re: A Blistering Account of DCP's Scholarship
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 3:26 am 
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Blixa wrote:
MrStakhanovite wrote:
Dear. God.


+ 72 virgins.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: A Blistering Account of DCP's Scholarship
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 4:15 am 
God
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:
I don't care how Daniel or any other MI person earns their bread, so long as it doesn't involve slamming members of the LDS Church in good standing.


What about slamming non-members, or former members?

- VRDRC


Indeed. If I was a member of the CoJCoLDS, I suppose I might be particularly concerned to find that an organization with a close association with that church was publishing material by members of the church suggesting pretty openly and without more than the most hypocritical attempt at charity that certain other members were fools or knaves (as opposed to just being wrong about stuff). Dammit, I'd feel - these are our brothers and sisters, and you don't treat 'family' like that even if you are sure they are on the wrong road.

But even if I was a member, I hope I would still be concerned that a group of people who claimed to defend my religion against outsiders were doing so not by intellectually refuting those who attacked the credibility of its core claims, but by attacking them personally. Why would I feel that?

1. It reduces the credibility of the defense, both to church members and outsiders - for one thing, a 'refutation' full of personal attacks and sneers sounds a bit like that note that once dropped out of a lawyer's case notes as he went into court "No case - abuse the plaintiff's attorney."
2. It's just plain wrong anyway, and if the church is really the Church of Jesus Christ, its members are not supposed to do wrong stuff.

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