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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 1:13 am 
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They used to talk vainly with those who talk in vain.

This gate of Hell...

OP

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- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 10:38 pm 
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I will make this even more simple for you Ludwigm. Whom do you claim Joseph Smith thought was Elias?!


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 12:00 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
I will make this even more simple for you Ludwigm. Whom do you claim Joseph Smith thought was Elias?!
Thank You. You are really far-flung, as preparing my way...

************************************************
I don't know what did think Joseph Smith. You may wonder, I don't care.
Nobody knows.
I don't claim anything, I claim nothing - as a non-english-speaker even I don't know which expression to use.

************************************************
All we know what did he say/write.

- According to D&C 110:12-13, he didn't think Elias and Elijah are the same, so he can make a hoax - concorded with Oliver Cowdery - that this two different person have appeared them after each other.
D&C 110
wrote:
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:

- According to his so called translation, he did think Elias is the same person as John the Baptist.
Joseph Smith Translation
Mark 9:3
wrote:
John the Baptist was on the Mount of Transfiguration. (compare Mark 9:4)
And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses or in other words, John the Baptist and Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

- According to D&C 27:7, he did think Gabriel, - that stand in the presence of God (Luke 1:11-19) - is Elias:
D&C 27:7
wrote:
And also John the son of Zacharias, which Zacharias he (Elias) visited and gave promise that he should have a son, and his name should be bJohn, and he should be filled with the spirit of Elias;
King James Version
Luke 1
wrote:
11. And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.
12. And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.
13. But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
16. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
17. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
18. And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.
19. And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

- According to his so called translation, he did think Elias and Esaias are the same (do the names sound similar?)
Scriptures
New Testament
Luke 3:4
wrote:
As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Scriptures
Joseph Smith Translation
Matthew 17:13
wrote:
But I say unto you, Who is Elias? Behold, this is Elias, whom I send to prepare the way before me.
Scriptures
Joseph Smith Translation
Matthew 17:11
wrote:
And again I say unto you that Elias has come already, concerning whom it is written, Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me; and they knew him not, and have done unto him, whatsoever they listed.


Is this enough?
Joseph Smith has said a lot enough to show that he doesn't know who is Elias.
What did he know? What did he think?

Please ask the Holy Ghost...

For me, see the paraphrase of my signature:
Whenever Joseph Smith spouts gibberish, the apologists spends centuries deciphering the message.

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- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 12:25 am 
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Apparently, You did forget to answer me:

ludwigm wrote:
gdemetz wrote:
I only speak English, and a little Cebuano.
Fine.
...
See 6th comment above, viewtopic.php?p=582961#p582961 (Some quote from the Cebuano bible, and from Doktrina ug Mga Pakigsaad 110)

Please translate us, miserable non-cebuano-speakers, who Elijah is for the Cebuano speakers?


So, who is Elijah in Cebuano?

Or is to answer too uncomfortable?

***************************************************
BTW

"How about that old woman you kiked of your premisers which was beging."
POL PRY.

"There is things which you have done which is unbeknowens to anybody but me. You better trot out a few dols. to yours truly or you'll hear thro' the papers from"
HANDY ANDY.

PERJURY. -- Perhaps, now that Mr. G. Demetz is before the people as a candidate for Leading Mopologist, he will condescend to explain how he came to be convicted of perjury by thirty-four witnesses, in Wakawak, Cochin China, in 1863, the intent of which perjury was to rob a poor native widow and her helpless family of a meagre plantain patch, their only stay and support in their bereavement and their desolation. Mr. G. Demetz owes it to himself, as well as to the great people whose suffrages he asks, to clear this matter up. Will he do it?

BY MARK TWAIN. RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR...

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- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 8:53 pm 
God

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Ludwigm, I glad that you admitted that Joseph Smith called different people Elias! Thank you for that! Here is another JST translation:

" Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist, AND ALSO OF ANOTHER WHO SHOULD COME AND RESTORE ALL THINGS." JST Matthew 17:14

Perhaps this is the Elias mentioned in D&C 110. In any case, it is obvious that Joseph Smith applied this name title to many persons, as I previously stated. It is also obvious from the previous verse that Elias was used there as a name/title ONCE which applied to two different people in the same sentence. My point all along was that Joseph Smith understood this and wasn't confused at all as his critics claim.


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 9:53 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
Ludwigm, I glad that you admitted that Joseph Smith called different people Elias! Thank you for that!
You should learn Your own language better.
I didn't admit that, I stated that. Affirmed, argued, asseverated, avowed, claimed, contended, declared.

And I did state that no such man exist. Elias is only an alias to Elijah. In a great part due to the translators of KJV.

FYI alias is not one of the stupid TV series our world is full of.
alias is pseudonym.
A pseudonym is a name that a person or group assumes for a particular purpose, which differs from his or her original or true name (orthonym). Popular pseudonyms include stage names, noms de plume (pen names), aliases, gamer identifications, anagrams, Graecisms, Latinisations, mystifications, nicknames, and assumed names (and orders) of popes and monarchs.
Should I explain You the meaning of mystification?



gdemetz wrote:
In any case, it is obvious that Joseph Smith applied this name title to many persons.
GDemetz, I glad that you admitted that Joseph Smith applied this name title to many persons. Thank you for that!

The uncomfortable fact - for You and for them who are belonging to the same communion - is that this name title intrinsically is a translation error, and that many persons behind the name title "Elias" don't exist.


***********************************************************
BTW I don't hasten You - I am alien from it...
but...

Who is Elijah in Cebuano?

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- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 10:09 pm 
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Corpsegrinder wrote:
In what way do you construe this to be an insult? Catholicism’s long and violent history of spiritual intolerance is common knowledge. I come from a Mormon background, but I wouldn't find it insulting if you were to bring up the subject of the Mountain Meadows Massacre.


I thought you were talking to me, not the Catholic Church.

Long and violent history.... a caricature of a whole group of people, and a culture, over hundreds and thousands of years, at best.

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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 10:11 pm 
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madeleine wrote:
Corpsegrinder wrote:
Catholicism
Catholic Church


OP

about Elias, if I my ask...

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- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 2:30 am 
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You are absolutely wrong Ludwigm! If Elias only meant Elijah, then why did Jesus refer to John the Baptist as that?! What you state does not make sense! John the Baptist was not Elias nor was he Elijah!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 3:25 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
You are absolutely wrong Ludwigm! If Elias only meant Elijah, then why did Jesus refer to John the Baptist as that?! What you state does not make sense! John the Baptist was not Elias nor was he Elijah!!!


Please qoute me Jesus' words!

The original ones, please, not the English (c) KJV ones...


I am liberal, You may use the Aramaic dialect You want, as:
Old Aramaic (1100 BCE–200 CE), including:
The Biblical Aramaic of the Hebrew Bible
The Aramaic of Jesus (this would be most useful, You know)
Middle Aramaic (200–1200), including:
Literary Syriac
The Aramaic of the Talmuds, Targumim, and Midrashim
Mandaic
Modern Aramaic (1200–present), including:
Various modern vernaculars

As an expert in links and references, You should put the video recording of the original event to youtube. It would be really demonstrative.



**************************************************
BTW

Who is Elijah in Cebuano?

_________________
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 12:19 am 
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Ludwigm, I am beginning to believe that you are educated, but still dumb! Even if you say that it meant Elijah, was John the Baptist Elijah?! Of course not!! So, obviously, no matter how it is translated, IT HAD ANOTHER MEANING SINCE IT WAS A DIFFERENT NAME THAN THE PERSON THAT IT WAS USED TO REPRESENT!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 3:16 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Even if you say that it meant Elijah, was John the Baptist Elijah?! Of course not!!
Please say this to Joseph Smith...

[ quote of the OP]
JOSEPH SMITH TRANSLATION
Mark 9:3
wrote:
John the Baptist was on the Mount of Transfiguration. (compare Mark 9:4)
And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses or in other words, John the Baptist and Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
This is a complex sentence, do You understand it?
This verse was written by Your master, prophet, seer, revelator and translator.
What does this verse mean? What does "in other words" mean?
[ end quote of the OP]



gdemetz wrote:
blah blah Elias, blah blah John the Baptist, blah blah Elijah
Quote:
Elijah (play /ɨˈlaɪdʒə/; also Elias /ɨˈlaɪ.əs/; Hebrew: אֱלִיָּהוּ, Eliyahu, meaning "Yahweh is my God"; Arabic:إلياس, Ilyās), was a prophet in the northern kingdom of Israel during the reign of Ahab (9th century BC), according to the Books of Kings.
Quote:
Elias (ēlī'əs), Greek form of Elijah.
Quote:
Joseph Smith, in whose time and place the King James Version was the only available English translation of the bible, simply failed to grasp the fact that the Elijah of the Old Testament and the Elias of the New are one and the same person. Latter-day Saints deny this and say that the difference they make between the two is deliberate and prophetic.




gdemetz wrote:
Ludwigm, I am beginning to believe that you are educated, but still dumb!
Vituperation is the ultimate harbour of the despaired apologists.

I don't put You to the ignore list, because I like clowns. Especially sad ones.
Image

In point of fact, I like You, gdemetz! Without You, the world were incomplete.



**************************************************
BTW

Who is Elijah in Cebuano?

_________________
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 11:08 pm 
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Ludwigm, you can argue forever if you like, but whether you know it or not, my point has been made. Joseph Smith knew that the title could refer to more than one person!!!

"Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist, AND ALSO OF ANOTHER..."

From one name, it referred to more than one person! I'm sorry if you can't understand that. Perhaps if you have a friend who is very good in English, he can explain to you what I mean.


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 12:55 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Ludwigm, you can argue forever if you like, but whether you know it or not, my point has been made. Joseph Smith knew that the title could refer to more than one person!!!
That title simply doesn't exists outside of English and KJV.
In German - for example - there is no person, title, nametitle or whatever called Elias.
Neither in most of the languages.

gdemetz wrote:
Perhaps if you have a friend who is very good in English, he can explain to you what I mean.
Perhaps if you have a friend who is very good in any Non-English language - or at least know something - , he can explain to you what I mean.


*********************************************************
Please qoute me Jesus' words!
The original ones, please, not the English (c) KJV ones...

*********************************************************
Who is Elijah in Cebuano?

_________________
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 10:27 pm 
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No, that name originated well before there was a KJV of the Bible. It't origins are from the Hebrew (see Elias - Wikipedia). Also, there was an Elias who who was a religious leader in the 8th century AD. Of course, the Hebrew origin is not spelled like the English. It is spelled in the Hebrew as Eliyahu, but in English it is Elias. There was an old prophet called Eliyahu (Elias) who appeared to Joseph Smith, but, unfortunately, not much is known of him. Some have said that this was just another name for Noah, but there is no proof of that.


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 11:29 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
No, that name originated well before there was a KJV of the Bible. It't origins are from the Hebrew (see Elias - Wikipedia).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elias says:
Quote:
Elias (/ɨˈlaɪ.əs/) is the Latin transliteration of the Greek name Ἠλίας, which in turn is the Hellenized form of the Hebrew: אליהו, Eliyahu, meaning "Yahweh is my God".[1] Another form of Eliyahu in English is Elijah.
That is, Elias and Elijah are different forms of the same name, the same person.


gdemetz wrote:
Also, there was an Elias who who was a religious leader in the 8th century AD.
CFR
(This abbreviation stands for Call For References. I am certain You, as an expert of links and references know this.)
This means please quote something about that religious leader in the 8th century AD...


gdemetz wrote:
Of course, the Hebrew origin is not spelled like the English. It is spelled in the Hebrew as Eliyahu, but in English it is Elias.
In English Eliyahu is Elijah - in mormonism.
Unfortunately, in English - especially in KJV English - Elijah and Elias seems to be a different person. Masterly trap for Joseph Smith, developed by KJV translators.


gdemetz wrote:
There was an old prophet called Eliyahu (Elias) who appeared to Joseph Smith, but, unfortunately, not much is known of him.
Another old prophet?
Is the 8th century AD so rich in unknown prophets called Elias?
Not much is known of them (unfortunately...)? What for the prophets, seers and revelators of our dispensation?


gdemetz wrote:
Some have said that this was just another name for Noah, but there is no proof of that.
Noah?
The title Elias has also been applied to many others for specific missions or restorative functions that they are to fulfill, for example, John the Revelator and Noah or Gabriel.
Will You cough up all obfuscation around Elias? I know them all, better than You..

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- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 12:30 am 
God

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You are wrong again Ludwigm. You didn't look at all the rest of the reference page I gave you. You stated that the name Elias doesn't exist outside of the English and the KJV. However, according to Wikipedia:

Elias Icelandic
Elias HUNGARIAN
Elias Spanish
Elias Czech
Elias Portuguese
Elias Persian
Eliasz Polish
Elis Swedish
Eliyahu Hebrew

Anyhow, however one wants to call the name, the fact still remains that the uses in the above passages show clearly that it could apply to a person who didn't even have that name, such as John the Baptist, or ANOTHER.


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 2:03 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
You are wrong again Ludwigm.
I was certain I am.


gdemetz wrote:
You didn't look at all the rest of the reference page I gave you.
Until now, You didn't give any reference, link or whatever. Apparently You are not able to give any reference.


gdemetz wrote:
You stated that the name Elias doesn't exist outside of the English and the KJV. However, according to Wikipedia:
Elias Icelandic
Elias HUNGARIAN
Elias Spanish
Elias Czech
Elias Portuguese
Elias Persian
Eliasz Polish
Elis Swedish
Eliyahu Hebrew

1. Elis, Eliasz, Elías(Spanish), Elía(Icelandic) and Eliyahu are not Elias.
2. This Wikipedia entry lists all VARIANTS of the same name.
3. Only the KJV English is that stupid, that make difference of Elijah and Elias - which are VARIANTS of the same name.
4. Persian?
Please show me the name Elias here:
Image
Didn't You used the Qazvini dialect? I am sorry, I don't know others.


gdemetz wrote:
Anyhow, however one wants to call the name, the fact still remains that the uses in the above passages show clearly that it could apply to a person who didn't even have that name, such as John the Baptist, or ANOTHER.
What passages above? I don't see one! Wikipedia, maybe? Nothing to do with JtB.
If I had a friend who is very good in English, he could explain to me what You mean with this sentence... Or can Your invisible reference pages help ?


**************************************************
BTW

Who is Elijah in Cebuano?

_________________
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 10:27 pm 
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Yes, Ludwigm, Wikipedia. The passage or quote which clearly shows the Joseph Smith knew the name could apply generally to other people who weren't even named that is on my March 23 10:59 AM post above.


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 2:42 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
is on my March 23 10:59 AM post above.

1. This topic was started on 2012.04.26. Apr 26. 26th April. No post on March 23
2. This is the link to the first post.

Do You know what does LINK mean?
I don't ask if You can use it, because You can not.



gdemetz wrote:
The passage or quote which clearly shows ...

Here on this forum there is a feature called "quote".
I don't ask if You can use it, because You can not.
(I've used it twice only in this post.)


*****************************************
The names "Elias" and "Elijah" in the English KJV bible are simply two different name for the same person.


**************************************************
Who is Elijah in Cebuano?







BTW
For this minute on, you are on my ignore list.
Play alone with your twenty seven different eliases.

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- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 12:57 am 
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I'm sorry Ludwigm, I put the wrong date in. My post, which I referred to was May 16, 2012, 11:08 PM.


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