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 Post subject: Re: Wm. Schryver: Where is the name "Shulem" in Facsimile No. 3?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:27 pm 
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beastie wrote:
Will is doing some tap-dancing now. He originally said:

Quote:
And yes, a Mesoamerican polity of a million people would certainly be considered relatively minor in respect to the total population of the area circa 400 A.D. I can entirely understand how such a minor presence could effectively disappear without much of a trace over the course of 1600 years.


Now Will seems to be claiming he was really referring to the total Nephite population throughout its entire history. He clearly was talking about a polity of a million people in the area circa 400 AD.

BTW, Brant has appeared on the thread I started on this topic. I've asked him if he concurs with Nomad's statements, with which Will heartily concurred.

I'm not tap dancing at all. And I didn't mean "the total Nephite population throughout its entire history." I was talking about a "polity of a million people in the area circa 400 A.D." Add in the outposts and it would be even more than a million, perhaps even close to half again as many. I still maintain that constitutes a relatively "minor" political entity of the period. It certainly would not have been "the dominant" polity of the time, and was probably in the bottom 10, if not even substantially lower--even at its apex, population-wise.

Brant knows that I disagree with him on several points--for example, I am not inclined to believe that the battle loss numbers are substantially inflated as reported in the book of Mormon (during the final Nephite battles). I understand his arguments. I agree with many of them. I don't agree with all of them. In fact, I don't agree with a large segment of them. And I am certainly not alone in these assessments. Nevertheless, I greatly value Brant's work, taken as a whole, and consider him a fellow faithful Saint. I trust the feeling is mutual.

At any rate, I will not enter this debate at this point in time. I simply do not have the time. However, I think I would like to engage it at a later point in time, although I will not predict when that will be.

One false apostate premise at a time ...

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 Post subject: Re: Wm. Schryver: Where is the name "Shulem" in Facsimile No. 3?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:34 pm 
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So did anyone show where 'Shulem' appears? Or why the black guy is playing grab ass with the one in front of him? Or maybe even where the bagels are in the drawing?

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 Post subject: Re: Wm. Schryver: Where is the name "Shulem" in Facsimile No. 3?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:49 pm 
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William Schryver wrote:
I'm not tap dancing at all. And I didn't mean "the total Nephite population throughout its entire history." I was talking about a "polity of a million people in the area circa 400 A.D." Add in the outposts and it would be even more than a million, perhaps even close to half again as many. I still maintain that constitutes a relatively "minor" political entity of the period. It certainly would not have been "the dominant" polity of the time, and was probably in the bottom 10, if not even substantially lower--even at its apex, population-wise.

Brant knows that I disagree with him on several points--for example, I am not inclined to believe that the battle loss numbers are substantially inflated as reported in the book of Mormon (during the final Nephite battles). I understand his arguments. I agree with many of them. I don't agree with all of them. In fact, I don't agree with a large segment of them. And I am certainly not alone in these assessments. Nevertheless, I greatly value Brant's work, taken as a whole, and consider him a fellow faithful Saint. I trust the feeling is mutual.

At any rate, I will not enter this debate at this point in time. I simply do not have the time. However, I think I would like to engage it at a later point in time, although I will not predict when that will be.

One false apostate premise at a time ...


So the assertion that a polity numbering a million in Mesoamerica in 400 AD would actually have been immense and powerful is a "false apostate premise??" Bizarre.

And your assertion is that just such a polity would be relatively minor???? And you think you have sources to back up this bizarre assertion?

Good grief.

Once again, I think this is significant not because it deals directly with the Book of Abraham, but because it deals with Will's ability to recognize when he understands a topic and when he does not. He clearly does not understand Mesoamerican history, as scholars understand it today. Yet he thinks he does - and thinks he understands it better than Brant.

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 Post subject: Re: Wm. Schryver: Where is the name "Shulem" in Facsimile No. 3?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:52 pm 
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beastie wrote:
So the assertion that a polity numbering a million in Mesoamerica in 400 AD would actually have been immense and powerful is a "false apostate premise??" Bizarre.

And your assertion is that just such a polity would be relatively minor???? And you think you have sources to back up this bizarre assertion?

Good grief.


We're talking about "pockets" of Nephites scattered all the way from the Maya lowlands to the Great Lakes in one great but minor "polity." What's so bizarre about that?

Quote:
Once again, I think this is significant not because it deals directly with the Book of Abraham, but because it deals with Will's ability to recognize when he understands a topic and when he does not. He clearly does not understand Mesoamerican history, as scholars understand it today. Yet he thinks he does - and thinks he understands it better than Brant.


He's just getting started, apparently. One false apostate premise at a time, indeed.

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 Post subject: Re: Wm. Schryver: Where is the name "Shulem" in Facsimile No
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 9:31 am 
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William Schryver wrote:
After all is said and done, I will be genuinely surprised if a substantial number of Mormon critics do not admit that the case I will have made appears to be extremely solid--based in logic, valid reasoning, and (most of all) evidence.


Surprise!

:lol:

Paul O

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 Post subject: Re: Wm. Schryver: Where is the name "Shulem" in Facsimile No
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 9:57 am 
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I really wish Mopologists would address this issue. It'd be an interesting exercise in apologia...

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 Post subject: Re: Wm. Schryver: Where is the name "Shulem" in Facsimile No
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 11:26 am 
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How has William's cipher theory been received by his friends in the church?

Do I hear laughter?

:lol:

Look kids, it's Facismile No. 2 with all kinds of sweet cipher surprises! They're magically delicious!

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Wm. Schryver: Where is the name "Shulem" in Facsimile No
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 11:59 am 
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They are the words of William Wines Phelps. You should study more history and drink less Jack Daniels.



Among other things...

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 Post subject: Re: Wm. Schryver: Where is the name "Shulem" in Facsimile No
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 12:05 pm 
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Paul Osborne wrote:
Silly William. . . . I have my facts. You are no match against me when it comes to arguing these matters. I will rip you to pieces! I will tear you apart!! I will crush you.


Sounds like old Marvel super villain dialogue.

"Fool! Nothing can stop me! Bow before my might, or you will be destroyed!"

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 Post subject: Re: Wm. Schryver: Where is the name "Shulem" in Facsimile No
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 12:13 pm 
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So, the bottom line is that, as any good Egyptologist knows, there are multiple possible interpretations to just about any word or sentence rendered in hieroglyphic script, depending on historical period and context.


And, would you not agree, that the complexities added to the problem of interpretation by historical period, linguistic development/evolution, and context are compounded when attempting to get a handle on ancient Egyptian religious language and hieroglyphic iconography, which, as in all mystery religions of the ancient world, subsumes within itself multiple layers of meaning (both exoteric and esoteric) and which also may have been changed, altered, or accreted revised meaning over time?

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 Post subject: Re: Wm. Schryver: Where is the name "Shulem" in Facsimile No
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 12:15 pm 
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You make it sound like there are some big mysteries in the Egyptian language …



You must be kidding? The ancient Egyptian hieroglyphic language - the language of its theology, metaphysics, and ritual drama, is still only partially understood. I've never heard anyone deny that.

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 Post subject: Re: Wm. Schryver: Where is the name "Shulem" in Facsimile No
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 12:25 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
William Schryver wrote:
After all is said and done, I will be genuinely surprised if a substantial number of Mormon critics do not admit that the case I will have made appears to be extremely solid--based in logic, valid reasoning, and (most of all) evidence.


Surprise!

:lol:

Paul O

Just goes to show what a narcissistic nutjob Schryver is.

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 Post subject: Re: Wm. Schryver: Where is the name "Shulem" in Facsimile No
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 12:26 pm 
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William Schryver wrote:
Nimrod wrote:
Thank you, Will, for posting.

Do you know of any Egyptologists (that are neither LDS nor anti-LDS) that have studied all these particular characters that you've displayed and reached any conclusions about what these characters symbolize?

Symbolize to whom?

All symbols are meaningless until they are assigned significance. To the extent that significance is agreed upon, then the symbol attains meaning.


Sad, sad, sad. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Wm. Schryver: Where is the name "Shulem" in Facsimile No
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 12:29 pm 
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You manifest all the classic traits of one who is inclined to very fundamentalist thinking. I imagine you were one of those über-TBMs that looked upon every word spoken by a general authority as the unadulterated gospel truth and who conducted your life with Pharisee-like devotion to every jot and tittle of the "law." In my experience, those are the kind most likely to have their faith in the restored gospel easily destroyed by the first upsetting piece of information they come across.



Yes...the St. George Temple only has one spire, while the Salt Lake Temple has six...

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 Post subject: Re: Wm. Schryver: Where is the name "Shulem" in Facsimile No
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 12:41 pm 
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Droopy,

I hate to break it to you, but you're so "popular" because of your bad behavior. Critics love apologists who behave badly. Will is popular for the same reason.


1. Big fat pot calling little kettle black.

2. Translation: "Droopy makes most people here feel intellectually weak, insecure, and philosophically unimportant."

Aren't you glad I'm here to translate exmo language into English script?

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 Post subject: Re: Wm. Schryver: Where is the name "Shulem" in Facsimile No
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 12:42 pm 
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Not to worry, young Droopy, you still smell the rankest.




Young???

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 Post subject: Re: Wm. Schryver: Where is the name "Shulem" in Facsimile No
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 12:47 pm 
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Paul Osborne wrote:
William Schryver wrote:
Paul,

What an ... impressive display of erudition! I confess I had no idea you had already "figured out" all of the secrets of the KEP. That said, I must admit that I was very disappointed on one count. I was not able to learn one very important detail about the KEP that I have long hoped to learn. It pertains to the Egyptian Alphabet documents. There are, as I'm sure you know, a total of 69 characters to which a "sound" and an "explanation" have been assigned. Where on the papyri are these characters found? And, if you happen to know, what is their Egyptian meaning?

I very much look forward to your reply.


You want me to help you understand the Alphabet & Grammar created by President Joseph Smith and his scribes and tell you secrets that you don't know? Get real! Do you think I was born yesterday? Feel free to send a letter to President Monson and ask him to be your seer. Isn’t that what they used to do in olden times, calling upon the seer to translate languages?

In your letter to President Monson, do ask him if you can be a member in good standing and publicly announce:

1. I, William Schryver do not believe Egyptologists can find the name Shulem in the characters of Facsimile No. 3.
2. I, William Schryver do not believe Egyptologists can read a king's name in Facsimile No. 3.
3. I, William Schryver do not believe the Egyptian god Anubis is a black slave
4. I, William Schryver wouldn't be surprised to see the "facsimiles" removed from the formal canon

And you have a nice day too, idiot.

Paul O




You're complete inability to engage in civil, intellectually substantive debate is quite telling - but the common denominator that ties much of the discourse within the Trailerpark together both intellectually and psychologically.

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 Post subject: Re: Wm. Schryver: Where is the name "Shulem" in Facsimile No
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 12:51 pm 
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Laugh it up fuzzball. I won't help you and I have no pride and don't give a damn about what people think about me. I'm beginning to realize that you are the same way.



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 Post subject: Re: Wm. Schryver: Where is the name "Shulem" in Facsimile No
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 12:52 pm 
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Droopy wrote:
Quote:
You make it sound like there are some big mysteries in the Egyptian language …



You must be kidding? The ancient Egyptian hieroglyphic language - the language of its theology, metaphysics, and ritual drama, is still only partially understood. I've never heard anyone deny that.


Not as murky as you'd like to think.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Wm. Schryver: Where is the name "Shulem" in Facsimile No
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 1:05 pm 
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Coming from you, this is nothing short of hilarious. By your own logic you are a know nothing since you admit you won't answer questions and explain your arguments online. But as usual, you demand everyone else answers your questions or else they're just bluffing.


Image

Quote:
For what it is worth, Paul Osborne was the only serious student of the KEP during my 10 year tenure as an LDS apologist. Nibley was too old and speaking incoherently whenever he did give a talk, and John Gee was still in college when I first came across the topic. Kerry Shirts was the most popular apologist but he clearly had not delved into the KEP matter at all. Also, Paul was analyzing the intricacies of the Joseph Smith Egyptian Papers long before "William the liar" ever really understood exactly what the KEP were. This was proved in a highly embarrassing exchange that took place between he and I in May of 2006 when he showed how dumb he really was by suggesting the KEP and the Joseph Smith Papyri were one and the same.


http://cdn5.fotosearch.com/bthumb/CSP/C ... 747961.jpg

Quote:
Paul's defense of Joseph Smith as a bonafide prophet who knew the secrets of the Egyptian language, is documented throughout the MADB archives. In fact, when Paul finally left that forum, he was at that time, the all time leading defender of the Church in that he had more posts at FAIR/MADB then I think the next two people behind him put together. But most of his research on the matter was over most everyone's head, so he didn't really get a lot of attention even though he frequently advertised his website on the forum. This is also because his approach was completely different from the conventional apologetic approach, and most people didn't want to follow his reasoning because it would naturally lead to apostasy (obviously). The difference was that the Nibley type apologists (myself included) were trying to divorce Joseph Smith from the KEP as much as possible whereas Paul's approach was more honest because he embraced the evidence and maintained his belief that Joseph Smith properly translated the Joseph Smith papyri; that the true meaning of the language escaped Egyptologists who had relied on worldly knowledge and the reasoning of men. That is what I remember Paul arguing with me profusely as I was writing misleading FAIR articles about the "missing papyrus."


Image

Quote:
Defending the untenable for so long is enough to drive anyone crazy. That Paul is a bit unstable at this point is understandable. I see him as an escapee from the asylum, trying to treat his own mental illness that was inflicted upon him during his faithful tenure as an LDS apologist.


Image


Few intellectually honest observers would have missed, by this time, the fact that Neither Paul nor Graham have so much as attempted to answer the clear, concise, and easily understood questions about the GAEL that Will has asked above, and have instead spent all available bandwidth engaged in a series of foam flecked anti-Will Schryver polemics heavy on red faced self promotion and empty of intellectual content.

This approach is, of course, of long standing, when really specific, detailed questions about specific aspects of the KEP are asked, and it begins to appear that the entire KEP dependency theory is limping around on logical crutches because it cannot actually account for the contents of the KEP in a way that inferentially connects it to the BofA as a source with any degree of logical strength

There are, indeed, a variety of arguments delineating, - whether one believes in the divine origin and provenance of the BofA or not - why the KEP is probably not a source document for the BofA.

KEP dependence is a weak theoretical reed, and always has been, and one does not have to be a "TBM" or believer in the religious truth claims of the Church to come to that conclusion through a fair analysis of the evidence.

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 Post subject: Re: Wm. Schryver: Where is the name "Shulem" in Facsimile No
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 1:10 pm 
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An entire paean to Paul Osborne in an attempt to help him wriggle out of the bind in which he finds himself. I just love to see how you apostates band together to help one another out. It's heart-warming, to say the least.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_S4eGrczdQ


Notice the effect light has on the assembled "apostates" here...

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