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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:45 am 
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liz3564 wrote:
Buffalo wrote:
All you need to do is look at how Hamblin and

I have spoken with Dan briefly about this incident. Although I will not reveal specifics due to confidentiality issues, I can say that Dan, having read the article, did not view it as a "hit piece", but merely as a piece critical of your work.


Anyone who's read a Hamblin or Peterson FARMS review knows that what they call 'critical review' is really a lengthy ad hominem attack.

H.

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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:52 am 
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LDSToronto wrote:

Anyone who's read a Hamblin or Peterson FARMS review knows that what they call 'critical review' is really a lengthy ad hominem attack.

H.


+1

It's essentially a page out of the Scientology playbook.

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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:55 am 
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LDSToronto wrote:
Anyone who's read a Hamblin or Peterson FARMS review knows that what they call 'critical review' is really a lengthy ad hominem attack.

H.


Much like posts here. Anyone who has read a post here, by a critic, what they call critique or argument is really just an ad hominem attack.

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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 12:01 pm 
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stemelbow wrote:
LDSToronto wrote:
Anyone who's read a Hamblin or Peterson FARMS review knows that what they call 'critical review' is really a lengthy ad hominem attack.

H.


Much like posts here. Anyone who has read a post here, by a critic, what they call critique or argument is really just an ad hominem attack.


Mr. Elbow,

What is the difference between an internet message board and the FARMS Review?

H.

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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 12:07 pm 
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LDSToronto wrote:
Mr. Elbow,

What is the difference between an internet message board and the FARMS Review?

H.


I don't see how it matters. The complaint is, "they are doing something I don't like".

When someone says, "well you, or those you are associated with, are doing the same thing"

I don't see how saying, "well, they do it but they have more credibility and a larger readership then we" is an adequate defense. Or, "well they are assuming to be more professional then we".

Either way, it doesn't really work. Either stop your endless personal attacks on LDS folks, and offer your complaints about them offering personal attacks, or accept it goes both ways. That's how I see it.

I know you guys have exempted yourselves for some odd reason.

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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 12:12 pm 
Liz wrote:

I have spoken with Dan briefly about this incident. Although I will not reveal specifics due to confidentiality issues, I can say that Dan, having read the article, did not view it as a "hit piece", but merely as a piece critical of your work.


LDST wrote:
Anyone who's read a Hamblin or Peterson FARMS review knows that what they call 'critical review' is really a lengthy ad hominem attack.

H.


I understand. However, my point still stands. No one has read the article. I cannot comment on it because I have not read it. John has not read the article either.

And, at this point, no one will read the article.

It seems that, in any case, the article will not be published. If it was, indeed, a hit piece, as apparently some of John's friends who did manage to read the article claim, then, MI did ultimately do right by John, and did not publish it.

What more is there really to say about this? John, it seems, has been vindicated, if, he was, indeed a victim of any wrongdoing in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 12:17 pm 
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Liz, Hamblin suggested that it will now be published by FAIR instead of the MI.

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We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 12:20 pm 
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stemelbow wrote:
LDSToronto wrote:
Mr. Elbow,

What is the difference between an internet message board and the FARMS Review?

H.


I don't see how it matters. The complaint is, "they are doing something I don't like".

When someone says, "well you, or those you are associated with, are doing the same thing"

I don't see how saying, "well, they do it but they have more credibility and a larger readership then we" is an adequate defense. Or, "well they are assuming to be more professional then we".

Either way, it doesn't really work. Either stop your endless personal attacks on LDS folks, and offer your complaints about them offering personal attacks, or accept it goes both ways. That's how I see it.

I know you guys have exempted yourselves for some odd reason.


Elbow,

FARMS Review, by it's association with the Maxwell Institute and BYU, claims to be a legitimate scholarly journal. An internet message board, on the other hand, is more akin to a pub.

H.

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"Whether you think of it as heavenly or as earthly, if you love life immortality is no consolation for death."
~ Simone de Beauvoir


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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 12:21 pm 
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liz3564 wrote:
Liz wrote:

I have spoken with Dan briefly about this incident. Although I will not reveal specifics due to confidentiality issues, I can say that Dan, having read the article, did not view it as a "hit piece", but merely as a piece critical of your work.


LDST wrote:
Anyone who's read a Hamblin or Peterson FARMS review knows that what they call 'critical review' is really a lengthy ad hominem attack.

H.


I understand. However, my point still stands. No one has read the article. I cannot comment on it because I have not read it. John has not read the article either.

And, at this point, no one will read the article.

It seems that, in any case, the article will not be published. If it was, indeed, a hit piece, as apparently some of John's friends who did manage to read the article claim, then, MI did ultimately do right by John, and did not publish it.

What more is there really to say about this? John, it seems, has been vindicated, if, he was, indeed a victim of any wrongdoing in the first place.


I think we are all just finding much delight in the spanking Peterson's great and glorious ass received and want to savour the moment a while longer.

H.

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"Whether you think of it as heavenly or as earthly, if you love life immortality is no consolation for death."
~ Simone de Beauvoir


Last edited by LDSToronto on Thu May 10, 2012 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 12:22 pm 
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LDSToronto wrote:
Elbow,

FARMS Review, by it's association with the Maxwell Institute and BYU, claims to be a legitimate scholarly journal. An internet message board, on the other hand, is more akin to a pub.

H.


I think you meant trailer park.

Again. it doesn't matter. You don't like what some people do and want to use that against them? Then don't do that very thing. Or you can go ahead and do that and come off looking like hypocritical jackasses.

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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 12:23 pm 
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stemelbow wrote:
LDSToronto wrote:
Elbow,

FARMS Review, by it's association with the Maxwell Institute and BYU, claims to be a legitimate scholarly journal. An internet message board, on the other hand, is more akin to a pub.

H.


I think you meant trailer park.

Again. it doesn't matter. You don't like what some people do and want to use that against them? Then don't do that very thing. Or you can go ahead and do that and come off looking like hypocritical jackasses.


I stand corrected. FARMS Review is much more like a trailer park than a scholarly journal. My mistake.

H.

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"Others cannot endure their own littleness unless they can translate it into meaningfulness on the largest possible level."
~ Ernest Becker
"Whether you think of it as heavenly or as earthly, if you love life immortality is no consolation for death."
~ Simone de Beauvoir


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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 12:23 pm 
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Buffalo wrote:
Liz, Hamblin suggested that it will now be published by FAIR instead of the MI.


Hamblin also threatened to release it today but he is rather busy packing for Ireland.


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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 12:25 pm 
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liz3564 wrote:
No one has read the article.


Well that's not strictly true.
It would seem that a number of Mopologists have read it and we can assume a GA or Apostle has read it. We can also assume that it's content was deemed unbecoming of a member of the Church from the fact it was canned.
We don't need to read the article, one can sense its contents from the actions taken.

This episode shows how far out of step from the Church people like DCP et al have become.

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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 12:26 pm 
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lostindc wrote:
Buffalo wrote:
Liz, Hamblin suggested that it will now be published by FAIR instead of the MI.


Hamblin also threatened to release it today but he is rather busy packing for Ireland.


"I'd whip your ass, but, uh, I have a dentist's appointment."

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Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 12:31 pm 
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liz3564 wrote:
Liz wrote:

I have spoken with Dan briefly about this incident. Although I will not reveal specifics due to confidentiality issues, I can say that Dan, having read the article, did not view it as a "hit piece", but merely as a piece critical of your work.


LDST wrote:
Anyone who's read a Hamblin or Peterson FARMS review knows that what they call 'critical review' is really a lengthy ad hominem attack.

H.


I understand. However, my point still stands. No one has read the article.


You just said Dan has read it.

Quote:
It seems that, in any case, the article will not be published.


To be more precise, it won't be published in FRB as presently constituted. What is to stop them from publishing it elsewhere? Or stop them from changing a few paragraphs and publishing it anyway?

Quote:
If it was, indeed, a hit piece, as apparently some of John's friends who did manage to read the article claim, then, MI did ultimately do right by John, and did not publish it.


Only after Salt Lake City put the kibosh on it. Makes me wonder why they couldn't be bothered to do the right thing until then? I mean, seriously... it is that hard to do the right thing?

Quote:
What more is there really to say about this? John, it seems, has been vindicated, if, he was, indeed a victim of any wrongdoing in the first place.


IF? C,mon, Liz. IF? Are you saying he was lying? That there was no article? That he was not a target? That there was no wrongdoing? If there was no wrongdoing, then there would not need to be a GA administering a slap (and yes, that was definitely a slap. We even heard it out here in the mission field). Hamblin admits there was an article; Dan backs him up. There is no IF.

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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:08 pm 
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MDD is down. All the traffic on the thread over there must have overloaded the site. :)

Most of the responses there amounted to calling John Dehlin a tattletale. I think everyone on the Internet should be required to do some reading on the psychology of bullying before they're allowed to start posting.

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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:15 pm 
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I'm guessing they took it down intentionally until they can decide what to do. Those threads weren't doing FAIR/MI any favors.

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Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:21 pm 
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Buffalo wrote:
I'm guessing they took it down intentionally until they can decide what to do. Those threads weren't doing FAIR/MI any favors.


It must be quite difficult to live under such fear.

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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:23 pm 
Buffalo wrote:
I'm guessing they took it down intentionally until they can decide what to do. Those threads weren't doing FAIR/MI any favors.


If they stopped the 'hit piece' it would make sense to shut down a thread like that. My guess is that the paper itself wasn't as harsh as that thread. Most likely IMO it was probably just the amount of traffic. Moreover I think that even without releasing the paper the damage has already been done.


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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:37 pm 
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It's back up. Either it was just a glitch from traffic, or they figured the memory hole treatment would make things worse.

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Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:44 pm 
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Quote:

William Schryver, on 10 May 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

Well, well, well ... I can now see why John Dehlin was so anxious to see Greg Smith's article censored.

I have now read about 1/3 of the article. It is an absolutely devastating piece of work--devastating to Dehlin's proclaimed "objectivity" and "balance," that is.

That said, I have yet to identify a single instance of the ad hominem logical fallacy. Quite to the contrary, what the article does is use Dehlin's own words, meticulously assembled and cited, to demonstrate that he (Dehlin) is what I have long claimed him to be: an apostate evangelist, whose objective is to erode the faith of the Saints.

The sooner this article appears in print, the better: it will conclusively expose Dehlin for what he really is.


Confirmed as a hit piece.

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