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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:44 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
I have to admit that your knowledge of so many languages amazes me. I envy that some. I only speak English, and a little Cebuano.

Fine.

Then You can check the Cebuano bible
1 Kings 17:1
------------------------------------ (in Cebuano)
wrote:
Ug si Elias, ang Thisbinhon, nga uban sa mga pumoluyo sa Galaad, miingon kang Achab: Ingon nga buhi si Jehova, ang Dios sa Israel, sa kang kinsang atubangan ako nagatindog, walay tun-og bisan ulan niining mga tuiga, kondili sumala sa akong pulong.
and
Matthew 11:14
------------------------------------ (in Cebuano)
wrote:
ug kon buot kamo motoo niini, siya mao si Elias nga magaanhi.
That bible uses Elias in OT and NT. The same name, because it is the same person.

while...
Mga Kasulatan - Scriptures
Doktrina ug Mga Pakigsaad - Doctrine and Covenants
110 - numbers are the same in Cebuano
------------------------------------ (in Cebuano)
wrote:
12 Human niini, si Elias mipakita, ug mitugyan sa kapaigoan sa ebanghelyo ni Abraham, miingon nga diha kanamo ug sa among binhi sa tanan nga mga kaliwatan nga mosunod kanamo pagapanalanginan.
13 Human matapos kini nga panan-awon, lain nga mahinungdanon ug mahimayaon nga panan-awon miabut diha kanamo; kay si Elijah ang propeta, kinsa gidala ngadto sa langit nga wala makatilaw og kamatayon, nagbarug diha sa among atubangan, ug miingon:
14 Tan-awa, ang panahon miabut na sa hingpit, nga gipamulong pinaagi sa ba-ba ni Malaquias—nga nagpamatuod nga siya [Elijah] kinahanglan nga ipadala, sa dili pa moabut ang mahinungdanon ug makalilisang nga adlaw sa Ginoo—


Please translate us, miserable non-cebuano-speakers, who Elijah is for the Cebuano speakers?

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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 8:30 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
You still don't get it do you? Was John the Baptist's name either Elias of Elijah? No, it was not either one! Therefore, that name carried another meaning with it! So, if you say that it was Elijah (Elias in Greek) with Moses at the mount of Transfiguration, then that's OK. However, if you try to say that John was Elijah or Elias, then that is wrong. He came as an "Elias," or he came in the spirit of "Elias," but he was not Elias, nor was he Elijah. He was John the Baptist.


John the Baptist wasn't a spirit, he was a man. He is the one who fulfilled the prophecy of the one who makes the way for the Lord. Jesus Himself teaches this.

If you mean to say John the Baptist was only the fulfillment of the "spirit of a prophecy", then you will need to explain the difference between fulfilling the spirit of a prophecy, or fulfilling the prophecy itself. I see no difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:52 pm 
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What I am trying to say is this. For example, if I were a bishop, I may ask someone to visit another in the spirit of Christ. That person would neither be Christ or a spirit. He would be only ministering in the spirit of Christ.


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:58 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
What I am trying to say is this. For example, if I were a bishop, I may ask someone to visit another in the spirit of Christ. That person would neither be Christ or a spirit. He would be only ministering in the spirit of Christ.


That is not what Jesus said.

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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:01 pm 
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He referred to John the Baptist as "Elias." We all know that John the Baptist was not Elias or Elijah. What Christ meant was that John came in the spirit of Elias.


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 8:52 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
He referred to John the Baptist as "Elias." We all know that John the Baptist was not Elias or Elijah. What Christ meant was that John came in the spirit of Elias.


Again, Jesus taught that John the Baptist is the fulfillment of the prophecy in Malachi. There are many prophecies that surround the coming of the Messiah. If they are not fulfilled in Jesus Christ,then He is not the Messiah. It is that simple.

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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 11:13 pm 
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Hello?! Do you think that was the last and the only prophesy fulfilled by Elias, Elijah, or Christ?! You really have a 3rd grade understanding of the Bible.


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:17 am 
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ludwigm wrote:
gdemetz wrote:
I only speak English, and a little Cebuano.
Fine.
...
See 6th comment above, viewtopic.php?p=582961#p582961 (Some quote from the Cebuano bible, and from Doktrina ug Mga Pakigsaad 110)

Please translate us, miserable non-cebuano-speakers, who Elijah is for the Cebuano speakers?


So, who is Elijah in Cebuano?

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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 9:11 pm 
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The Cebuano version of the Bible is strange to me. It refers to Elijah, even in the OT as Elias, as if it were translated from Greek?


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 10:57 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
The Cebuano version of the Bible is strange to me. It refers to Elijah, even in the OT as Elias, as if it were translated from Greek?

Dear Dr. gdemetz!

Here is a step-by-step course, developed for You (and for McConkie-type TBMs).
Please read them sequentially, and please PLEASE stop reading and think 30 sec after each item.

1. There are languages outside of English.

2. Words can be more or less translated from one language to another.

3. "Simple" words - sun, moon, water, wind, rain, go, I, life, death - can be translated correctly, without any error.

4. "Difficult" words - god, spirit, thought, meaning, art - can be partially translated, with ambiguities and misunderstandings. Don't care, these are less important words, we could live without them.

5a. "Names". Mainly the names of persons (and places). Tricky words, I can say.
In the early times names were simple words used to identify one or more person. The person was tall, small, squint, gimp, or famous warrior. Whatever.
Their name have became Tall, Small, Squint, Gimp, or Famous-Warrior. The attributes have became name. Stop here for 30s.

5b. These "names" are different in different languages. The man called small is klein in German and kis in Hungarian. Simple words, You know. A famous warrior was called in German hlud wig - later Ludwig, it's me - can become famous among non-german tribes. 30!!

5c. It is not useful to translate a name. Why? Because it sounds different, and the addressed person don't know he was addressed. By and by the variants of the names have evolved. Ludwig's French variant is Louis, English variant is Lewis, Hungarian variant is Lajos.
And this was happened with the name of a prophet in the northern kingdom of Israel during the reign of Ahab (9th century BC), according to the Books of Kings. Rest for a short spell, 30 + 30 s! (The next step will be a fatiguing one)

5d. - be it 6.
The name of that prophet has different versions in different languages.
It may be Elias, Iliya, Illés, Elia, Elijah, אֱלִיָּהוּ, Eliyahu, إلياس, Ilyās or whatever.
Its English translation would be "Yahweh is my God". Please don't forget, we are talking about one certain person. 30.

7. Stupid translators - hired by a king called James, who was really Jacob - used in their work, a bible, two different name for one person. They called the prophet mentioned above Elijah and Elias. If the king can have two name, then why not the prophets?
End of the lesson.

The others are history.

Quote:
Detractors of Mormonism have often alleged that Smith, in whose time and place the King James Version was the only available English translation of the bible, simply failed to grasp the fact that the Elijah of the Old Testament and the Elias of the New are one and the same person. Latter-day Saints deny this and say that the difference they make between the two is deliberate and prophetic.
Call me detractor of Mormonism. I get it as courtesy.

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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 1:14 am 
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So, why did Jesus refer to John as "Elias" or Elijah (if that's what you think)?!


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 5:05 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
So, why did Jesus refer to John as "Elias" or Elijah (if that's what you think)?!


You don't know that he did.
You only know that someone who wasn't there reported that he did, based on some accounts from another person that also wasn't there.

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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 5:05 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
So, why did Jesus refer to John as "Elias" or Elijah (if that's what you think)?!
Did Jesus speak English?



I don't know nothing about no Elias, no Elijah. There are no such names in Hungarian. Use the proper biblical name, Illés.
I don't know nothing about no John. There is no such name in Hungarian. Use the proper biblical name, János.
I don't know nothing about no Jesus. There is no such name in Hungarian. Use the proper biblical name, Jézus. And don't pronounce it as geezes, if I may ask.
(Yes, I know that the triple negation is not a correct structure...)

In our bible (the only one I know and I accept, called Károli Bible or Vizsoly Bible, translated in 1590, 21 years before the stupid so-called KJV) there is ILLÉS.
JÉZUS (his stupid english name is Jesus, you stupid english speakers even can not pronounce it correctly) has referred to KERESZTELŐ JÁNOS as ILLÉS.
No John, no Elias, no Elijah, no stupid english names.


Károlyi Biblia
Máté 17
wrote:
10. És megkérdezék őt az ő tanítványai, mondván: Miért mondják tehát az írástudók, hogy előbb Illésnek kell eljőnie?
11. Jézus pedig felelvén, monda nékik: Illés bizony eljő előbb, és mindent helyreállít;
12. De mondom néktek, hogy Illés immár eljött, és nem ismerék meg őt, hanem azt mívelék vele, a mit akarának. Ezenképen az ember Fiának is szenvednie kell majd ő tőlük.
13. Ekkor megértették a tanítványok, hogy Keresztelő Jánosról szóla nékik.


Érted, baszdmeg? Tanulj meg magyarul, baszdmeg! Én megtanultam a te nyelvedet, baszdmeg.
(If You use Google to translate: baszdmeg is f###you)

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:20 pm 
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You don't know anything about them?! Okay, thanks anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:17 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
You don't know anything about them?! Okay, thanks anyway.

About Elias and Elijah?

At first I know about them, that they are not they, because this two name is referring to the one and same person.
I know about him a lot.
For example, I know that the New Testament describes how both Jesus and John the Baptist are compared with Elijah, and on some occasions, thought by some to be manifestations of Elijah, and Elijah appears with Moses during the Transfiguration of Jesus.

On the other hand, Joseph Smith didn't know this.
He failed to grasp the fact that the Elijah of the Old Testament and the Elias of the New are one and the same person. Nevertheless, wrote and said many hooey.

For example in JST 9:3
- And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses or in other words, John the Baptist and Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

And this is the subject of this thread.

Once again:
Elias and Elijah are two name of one person.
Joseph Smith didn't know it.
Apparently You still don't know it.

Dozens of prophets, seers and revelators since Joseph Smith make a smoke-screen around the name Elias - there are many Eliases, Elias means forerunner and so on - and here is You, narcotized by that smoke.

Which of us - You or I - who don't know anything about them?

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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:37 pm 
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You say that Joseph Smith didn't know the difference, but that is hogwash. Why is it that the JST of Mark 9:3 state that John the Baptist (as a spirit), called Elias was also at the Mount of Transfiguration along with Moses and Elijah?


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:52 pm 
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ludwigm wrote:
For us, Winnie the Pooh is Micimackó, John the Baptist is Keresztelő János.



Had the name Micimackó appeared in that scripture our friends at BYU would have a perfectly logical explanation.

So what is the Hungarian name for Eeyore?

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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:09 am 
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moksha wrote:

So what is the Hungarian name for Eeyore?


'stemelbow'

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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 4:28 am 
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ludwigm wrote:
For us, Winnie the Pooh is Micimackó, John the Baptist is Keresztelő János.
moksha wrote:
So what is the Hungarian name for Eeyore?

It is Füles.
The root is fül = ear, flap (a flat, usually thin piece attached), handle( of a cup or pot - in English it is loop ), nib, and some other technical widget.
The -s suffix stands for possession, in this case Füles (or füles if it is not a name) means somebody/something who/which has ear, flap, handle etc.

BTW Micimackó:
- mackó is the pet name or nickname of a bear, dictionaries say peter or teddy bear
- mici is the pet form of many name beginning with "Me~" or "Mi~"


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moksha wrote:
Had the name Micimackó appeared in that scripture our friends at BYU would have a perfectly logical explanation.

This is the main tragedy.

I'd like to know, what did think really the apologists, (especially BRM) when they wrote that many obfuscation, chaos and smoke around the Elias topic. They should feel that their "perfectly logical explanations" :confused: are only desperate kicks of a drowned.

From Bible Dictionary - Elias:
"Thus the word Elias has many applications and has been placed upon many persons as a title pertaining to both preparatory and restorative functions. It is evident from the questions they asked that both the Jewish leaders and the disciples of Jesus knew something about the doctrine of Elias, but the fragmentary information in our current Bibles is not sufficient to give an adequate understanding of what was involved in use of the term. Only by divine revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith is this topic brought into focus for us who live in the last days."
Fragmentary information? Not sufficient to give an adequate understanding?
...a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish...

From Bible Dictionary - Elias:
"... JST Matt. 11:13–14, JST Matt. 17:10–13, and JST John 1:19–28. These passages are sufficiently clarified to show that anciently two Eliases were spoken of ..."
JST? Every detail show that Joseph Smith didn't know who Elias is ( and Esaias, and Jeremy... ) and his "translation" is the evidence?

Yes, I know, apologists are reduced to extremes. Too many principle was built on that poor nonexisting Elias. He is a card on the lowest level of the house of cards.
Moreover, Joseph Smith can not fault. He must be defended at whatever cost.

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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:31 am 
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ludwigm wrote:
7. Stupid translators - hired by a king called James, who was really Jacob - used in their work, a bible, two different name for one person. They called the prophet mentioned above Elijah and Elias. If the king can have two name, then why not the prophets?
End of the lesson.

The others are history.



I don't think they were stupid. :) Forty-seven men had been divided into six groups of translators. Each group were assigned different texts to translate. The groups did not work with each other on name translations. So, one group translated the name to Elijah, another to Elias.

There are other names/places with the same translation differences in the KJV, also because of the different groups of men doing the translation.

Jeremiah-Jeremias
Hosea-Osee
Timothy-Timotheus
Mark- Marcus
Silas-Silvanus
Hagar-Agar
Noah-Noe
Sarah-Sarai
Isaiah-Esais
Luke-Lucas
Tyre-Tyrus
Gaza-Azza
Phoenicia-Phenice
Sharon-Saron
Kidron-Cedron

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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 2:26 pm 
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madeleine wrote:
ludwigm wrote:
7. Stupid translators - hired by a king called James, who was really Jacob - used in their work, a bible, two different name for one person. They called the prophet mentioned above Elijah and Elias. If the king can have two name, then why not the prophets?
End of the lesson.

The others are history.



I don't think they were stupid. :) Forty-seven men had been divided into six groups of translators. Each group were assigned different texts to translate. The groups did not work with each other on name translations. So, one group translated the name to Elijah, another to Elias.

There are other names/places with the same translation differences in the KJV, also because of the different groups of men doing the translation.

Jeremiah-Jeremias
Hosea-Osee
Timothy-Timotheus
Mark- Marcus
Silas-Silvanus
Hagar-Agar
Noah-Noe
Sarah-Sarai
Isaiah-Esais
Luke-Lucas
Tyre-Tyrus
Gaza-Azza
Phoenicia-Phenice
Sharon-Saron
Kidron-Cedron

+ near all names in Mathew 1 are different in the OT
+ Jeremy, a third variation for Jeremiah-Jeremias
+ Zidon-Sidon, Zarephath-Sarepta (in the Elias-Elijah story)

Well, they were not sooo stupid. They should have managed a Correlation Committee...

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