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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 7:25 pm 
Kishkumen wrote:
It seems to me that it is little more than a maneuver to shut down any criticism of Daniel.


I've done a great job, haven't I? I've bombarded all of your recent threads/criticisms of him. I've really done all I can to make sure you never start another DCP thread criticism. And it's been a roaring success. I've finally shut you up and you never say another critical word about DCP. Yep, that's me all right.


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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 7:33 pm 
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RayAgostini wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:
You've really lost your objectivity, Ray. Even if you want to call my criticism "hit pieces," it begs the question: why are you okay with a hit piece on Dehlin, whom you say you "admire"? If you disapprove of "hit pieces" on DCP, then why not the ones about Dehlin?


Did I say I was okay with it? I said I'd read it and then offer my opinions. In fact I said the opposite, that I'd probably not be okay with it, particularly if there is any attempt to paint John as a "wolf" with ulterior motives and trying to lead people away from the Church.

Well, as I've said, it would be very easy for you to email DCP and find out.

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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 7:38 pm 
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RayAgostini wrote:

I'm not only taking about missionaries, but stake presidents and bishops. I think you grossly underestimate their general ignorance of these matters.


Just my personal experience, but I am going to agree with Ray. Recently came clean to my parents. Dad is a two time bishop, stake presidency and about every other leadership calling you can imagine. My Mom has also been in every leadership calling a women can hold (RS president) and has also gone to education week every year for the past 10 or so years. Neither of them had ever heard of Daniel Peterson, FARMS or FAIR.

I also talked to them about John Dehlin, John Larsen and Joanna Brooks and shared John's Why People Leave video. I told my parents I have no intention of resigning from the church, but if the church decides to go after any of them I will not only resign, but would also become very vocal about the church.

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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 7:40 pm 
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Things are a lot different now than they were when the Sept Six were exed.

Take a page out of Murphy's press book. The press, maybe even the AP, would eat this kind of thing up, especially right now.

And I think that is exactly what the GA thought, too. Best to shut it down than to risk a media nightmare.

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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 7:41 pm 
Doctor Scratch wrote:
Well, as I've said, it would be very easy for you to email DCP and find out.


It would also be easy for me to email DCP and ask him whether he approves of ex-Mormon Universalists, or people who believe in aliens and UFOs (I shudder), or whether people who struggle with Book of Mormon historicity are going to hell. Come to think of it, there must be a million things I could ask him by email that are far more relevant to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 7:57 pm 
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RayAgostini wrote:
I've done a great job, haven't I? I've bombarded all of your recent threads/criticisms of him. I've really done all I can to make sure you never start another DCP thread criticism. And it's been a roaring success. I've finally shut you up and you never say another critical word about DCP. Yep, that's me all right.


I suppose you are right. You haven't tried to shut down all of my criticisms of what Daniel Peterson writes. Of course, I hardly think it abusive to critique his writing, and I don't think I was mean spirited in offering my difference of opinion. It is not as though I criticized his ideas out of some sort of vendetta against him. I find his blog interesting. I don't always agree with it, and sometimes I write about it.

He's lucky my wife doesn't lay into him for his risible views concerning taxation. Now that would be harsh. At least the things she said to me about his political and economic comments on his blog were fairly sharp. Much worse than what I said about some of his apologetic arguments. She also wasn't too fond of his various swipes at me. Well, she is biased in my favor there, so that probably doesn't count.

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"I don't profess to be such a Prophet as were Joseph Smith and Daniel; but I am a Yankee guesser." ~Brigham Young


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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 8:02 pm 
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Willy Law wrote:
Just my personal experience, but I am going to agree with Ray.


Fair enough. I am not changing my mind based on your say so, but you are entitled to your opinion. In my view, it is not the statistics that count; it is the cavalier way in which the lives of others are treated by those who take it upon themselves to defend the LDS Church. It could very well have landed Dehlin in very hot water, and I don't see why any one of us who care about him should be comforted by assurances based on DCP's purported obscurity. It is the journal that matters, not DCP personally. DCP is just an agent in producing the journal. The influence of the journal does not rise or fall on his personal celebrity in the Church, or lack thereof.

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"I don't profess to be such a Prophet as were Joseph Smith and Daniel; but I am a Yankee guesser." ~Brigham Young


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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 8:12 pm 
Kishkumen wrote:

I suppose you are right. You haven't tried to shut down all of my criticisms of what Daniel Peterson writes. Of course, I hardly think it abusive to critique his writing, and I don't think I was mean spirited in offering my difference of opinion. It is not as though I criticized his ideas out of some sort of vendetta against him. I find his blog interesting. I don't always agree with it, and sometimes I write about it.

He's lucky my wife doesn't lay into him for his risible views concerning taxation. Now that would be harsh. At least the things she said to me about his political and economic comments on his blog were fairly sharp. Much worse than what I said about some of his apologetic arguments. She also wasn't too fond of his various swipes at me. Well, she is biased in my favor there, so that probably doesn't count.


Guess what, Kish, I don't agree with some of the things he writes either. It's an entertaining, and often educational blog (particularly his expertise on Islam), and it's interesting to learn a lot more about his background (family, etc.), but I don't swell to some of his politics (because I probably do have some "socialist tendencies").

My time for today is nearly up, and reality bites tonight.


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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 8:21 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
But the difficulty is that what Scratch has done to Daniel is nothing compared to the power of the LDS Church, its authority, and its resources in the hands of its intellectual Danites.


An embittering thing which I have a hard time letting go, my friend Hyrum Andrus. But take your pick of the many sacrificed for the good of the whole. BYU's honor code, what an offensive name/title. A fairly recent one being the likes of Chad Hardy comes to mind.


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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 8:38 pm 
B.H. Roberts Chair of Mopologetic Studies
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RockSlider wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:
But the difficulty is that what Scratch has done to Daniel is nothing compared to the power of the LDS Church, its authority, and its resources in the hands of its intellectual Danites.


An embittering thing which I have a hard time letting go, my friend Hyrum Andrus. But take your pick of the many sacrificed for the good of the whole. BYU's honor code, what an offensive name/title. A fairly recent one being the likes of Chad Hardy comes to mind.


The Mopologists have publicly targeted a lot of people: Mike Quinn, Grant Palmer, Tom Murphy, Brent Metcalfe, Dan Vogel, Rodney Meldrum, and many, many others. I don't think I would describe any of these people as actually wanting to do "harm" to Mormonism, but that hasn't stopped the Mopologists from wanting to destroy their reputations in Mormon circles. One very prominent Mormon scholar once told me that Midgley, Peterson, and Hamblin view all of this as "a game." To them it's fun to attack these people, to tear them apart and watch as the "unwashed masses" lap all of it up. So it must really sting for somebody like DCP when he is castigated by the younger guys, like LoaP and the narrator. The good news seems to be that change is on the horizon. Yes: they've handed off the torch to Greg Smith, who is really turning out to be extraordinarily rotten, but apart from him, I don't think there will be many others who will be willing to perpetuate this "rotten enterprise."

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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 5:27 am 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
The Mopologists have publicly targeted a lot of people: Mike Quinn, Grant Palmer, Tom Murphy, Brent Metcalfe, Dan Vogel, Rodney Meldrum, and many, many others. I don't think I would describe any of these people as actually wanting to do "harm" to Mormonism, but that hasn't stopped the Mopologists from wanting to destroy their reputations in Mormon circles. One very prominent Mormon scholar once told me that Midgley, Peterson, and Hamblin view all of this as "a game." To them it's fun to attack these people, to tear them apart and watch as the "unwashed masses" lap all of it up. So it must really sting for somebody like DCP when he is castigated by the younger guys, like LoaP and the narrator. The good news seems to be that change is on the horizon. Yes: they've handed off the torch to Greg Smith, who is really turning out to be extraordinarily rotten, but apart from him, I don't think there will be many others who will be willing to perpetuate this "rotten enterprise."


Unfortunately, I think there will always be those who, while professing sainthood outwardly, somehow find a way to trash other saints who don't "measure up" in terms of loyalty, orthodoxy, or what have you. Greg Smith is the latest informal inquisitor in a long line of attack dogs. I doubt he will be the last. What matters in the end is how the apostles feel about all of this. If there is ever a time when the most influential apostles are those who do not buy into the notion of cannibalizing fellow saints in the name of doctrinal purity and absolute obedience to authority, that is when people like the Mopologists will truly be put on the defensive, if not shut out entirely from this kind of self-indulgent hobby. Until then, I can guarantee this will continue. Hitler always has his willing executioners.

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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 5:54 am 
Dan Peterson comments on this thread


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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 5:59 am 
God

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Stormy Waters wrote:


D to the C to the P wrote:
On the message board where my Malevolent Stalker holds forth, he and several of his acolytes have been hyperventilating for seven outraged pages now -- and the thread may actually be picking up steam -- about an alleged "smear" or "hit piece" that not a single one of them has even laid eyes on. And the Stalker himself, who has been anonymously engaged in a ceaseless, malignant campaign of character assassination and defamation against me for the past six years, claims that I'm a "coward" for not responding to this idiocy.

These "weasels," the Stalker's most faithful disciple predicts (referring to me and some of my associates), "will continue to do their dirty work. . . . They will continue on their smear parade in whatever sneaky, underhanded ways they can." We're villains, he explains, because we hold those who disagree with us "up to public criticism, lampooning, and ridicule."


I'm struggling to see a denial from daniel....

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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 6:02 am 
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You will note DCP does not deny the existence of the hit piece, just notes that youse guys have not seen it.

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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 6:22 am 
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Dressed like a woman, ready to pose in Facsmile No. 3.

(Hay, Daniel, what's the name of the Egyptian king in the writing?)

:lol:

Image

Paul O

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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 6:46 am 
God

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Drifting wrote:
Stormy Waters wrote:


D to the C to the P wrote:
On the message board where my Malevolent Stalker holds forth, he and several of his acolytes have been hyperventilating for seven outraged pages now -- and the thread may actually be picking up steam -- about an alleged "smear" or "hit piece" that not a single one of them has even laid eyes on. And the Stalker himself, who has been anonymously engaged in a ceaseless, malignant campaign of character assassination and defamation against me for the past six years, claims that I'm a "coward" for not responding to this idiocy.

These "weasels," the Stalker's most faithful disciple predicts (referring to me and some of my associates), "will continue to do their dirty work. . . . They will continue on their smear parade in whatever sneaky, underhanded ways they can." We're villains, he explains, because we hold those who disagree with us "up to public criticism, lampooning, and ridicule."


I'm struggling to see a denial from daniel....


So we have nothing to go off of, but Daniel is guilty all because Scratch suggested he might be? This is why I love this place. I get plenty of chuckles out of the need to go after certain Mormons all why feigning some attempt to come off as objective, thoughtful, and deep. It is utterly adorable. No one seems to get the rich irony in all of this. Otherwise intelligent people acting like little boobs.

Pages ago I offered a CFR for any of this. Nothing. Is this all just about whining about others because you have no part in the play? Can't be something as trivial as that, can it? Fess up MDB folks. Stop pouting.

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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 6:54 am 
CTR B

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(This is John -- I just want to apologize for the anger and frustration that permeates this post. I now regret sending it. I believe that there are many more constructive ways to communicate than this. So my apologies in advance.)

Somebody please capture his post via copy/paste (oh wait, I already have).

It's so classic...and condemning. I have incontrovertible proof of 1) the existence of the essay/hit piece....2) his knowledge about it....3) the GA condemnation of the whole enterprise....and 4) his direct censure (as it relates to all this).....so his use of the word "alleged" stands as a classic, yet condemning example of his continued disingenuous-ness as an apologist. The only thing that keeps me from releasing the evidence is my respect for those (including the GA's) who have supported me -- but you can count on him and his followers to take advantage of me in this regard (plausible deniability -- another classic LDS apologetic tactic...it's their whole foundation...really...when you get right down to it).

Does anyone else note how sad it is that Daniel Peterson now communicates from a solo blog where he doesn't even allow comments.....that he no longer even has the ability or credibility to directly engage in the difficult conversations? This is LDS apologetics in the 20th and 21st centuries...retreat only to places where you are surrounded by supporters...because if you engage critics directly in a neutral forum....you come off looking so silly...as if you are trying to prove the location of Santa's workshop.

I really, honestly, truly feel sorry for Daniel Peterson, Mike Ash, Allen Wyatt, Scott Gordon, Trevor Holyoak, John Lynch, Jack Welch, etc. They have built their houses upon sand, and now the foundation is slowly washing away. Even the brethren seem to see the writing on the wall (though we obviously have a long way to go in that regard). Still -- so much of their life's work is truly (and unfortunately) an embarrassment and damaging to the church, Mormonism and Mormons alike: a sad, destructive sham.

So I feel sorry for them that in some sense, they have been (and ultimately will be) left out to dry. As dupes. More importantly, I feel sorry for them that in trying to be helpful to the situation, they have only accelerated the pain/damage.....vs. served as a constructive part of the solution. The data from our survey are very clear (at least to me) -- LDS apologetics accelerate disaffection and disillusionment from the LDS church, because: 1) their responses are often mean-spirited and un-Christlike, and 2) they are simply not credible (i.e. tapirs, steel isn't steel, etc.)...so when someone who is truly struggling reads their stuff, they eventually walk away saying, "If this is the best that the church can do....then I'm outta here."

Up until now (2012), LDS apologetics have been a tragic, damaging, train-wreck-of-an embarrassment to everyone involved. May it rest in peace.

My suggestion to this board: At some point, it's time to ignore the troll(s)....and move on. They're just. not. credible...and honestly do not deserve our (or anyone's) attention any longer. The scholarly/scientific community ignores them (see previous comment about Santa and the North Pole). The believing bloggernacle ignores them (except to mock or condemn them). Mormonism writ large ignores them. It is only us (and the Deseret News) who gives them life/airplay. I think that the smartest thing Mormon Discussions could ever do would be to stop giving them air time...and let them fade away.

They are just....not....credible in any meaningful way, shape or form. They are a tragic, damaging joke. If I weren't so thoroughly exposed on a daily basis to the damage they have done (and continue to do) to thousands of Mormons and to the church, I would not speak so harshly. But I am....so I do.

My 2 cents.

My message to FAIR/FARMS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmj6JADOZ-8

Please stop. You're hurting people. You're hurting the church. You are embarrassing yourselves, and Mormonism writ large. Please, please, please find another way. Anytime you want me help...I'll be there for you. I can help you. Just call or email. 435 227-5776 mormonstories@gmail.com


Last edited by mormonstories on Wed May 09, 2012 1:41 pm, edited 27 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 6:59 am 
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Ray,

I am not sure what is so difficult to understand:

message board posts are not equal to a published piece in a quasi-scholarly journal.

To attempt to equate message board 'trash talk' to that of a hit piece published in a peer reviewed journal is silly. Last I checked, message board posts do not go through a peer-review prior to publication.


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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:01 am 
God

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stemelbow wrote:

So we have nothing to go off of, but Daniel is guilty all because Scratch suggested he might be? This is why I love this place. I get plenty of chuckles out of the need to go after certain Mormons all why feigning some attempt to come off as objective, thoughtful, and deep. It is utterly adorable. No one seems to get the rich irony in all of this. Otherwise intelligent people acting like little boobs.

Pages ago I offered a CFR for any of this. Nothing. Is this all just about whining about others because you have no part in the play? Can't be something as trivial as that, can it? Fess up MDB folks. Stop pouting.



ssssssshhhhhhh....the grown ups are talking...

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Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:08 am 
God

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mormonstories wrote:
Somebody please capture his post via copy/paste (oh wait, I already have).

It's so classic...and condemning. I have incontrovertible proof of 1) the existence of the essay/hit piece....


So we know there was some thing written, right? As I understand it you haven't seen it, right? What are we even talking about? To be fair, which it seems is not happening here at all, what Daniel called alleged is not an essay, but a "smear" or "hit piece". It seems whatever it is, he wouldn't call it what no one here has even seen.

Quote:
2) his knowledge about it....3) of the GA condemnation of the whole enterprise....


So...CFR. what is the incontrovertible proof of this? Can anyone see this, or shall we all trust another?

Quote:
and 4) of his direct censure (as it relates to all this).....so his use of the word "alleged" stands as a classic, yet condemning example of his continued disingenuous-ness as an apologist.


look. He might have been censured. I don't doubt it. It could have happened even if it was not a smear or hit piece. Things get way overblown in these parts. Who knows what we're even talking about? I sure don't.

Quote:
Does anyone else note how sad it is that Daniel Peterson now communicates from a solo blog where he doesn't even allow comments.....that he no longer even has the ability or credibility to directly engage in the difficult conversations? This is LDS apologetics in the 20th and 21st centuries...retreat only to places where you are surrounded by supporters...because if you engage critics directly in a neutral forum....you come off looking so silly...as if you are trying to prove the location of Santa's workshop.


ouch. That's a lot of hostility for the man.

Quote:
I really, honestly, truly feel sorry for Daniel Peterson, Mike Ash, Allen Wyatt, Scott Gordon, Trevor Holyoak, John Lynch, Jack Welch, etc. They have built their houses upon sand, and now the foundation is slowly washing away. Even the brethren seem to see the writing on the wall (though we obviously have a long way to go in that regard). Still -- so much of their life's work is truly (and unfortunately) an embarrassment and damaging to Mormonism and Mormons alike: a sad, destructive sham.

So I feel sorry for them that in some sense, they have been (and ultimately will be) left out to dry. As dupes.

But ultimately, they chose this path.....and they have done so, so much damage to so many people....I can't say I'm sad to see their brand of apologetics die off. Which it is....and will continue to do so.

Up until now (2012), LDS apologetics have been a tragic, damaging embarrassment to everyone involved. May it rest in peace.


Interesting prediction. I guess we'll all see how it all plays out.

Quote:
My suggestion to this board: At some point, it's time to ignore the troll....and move on. He's/they're just not credible...and honestly do not deserve our attention any longer. I think that the smartest thing Mormon Discussions could ever do would be to stop giving them air time...and let them (LDS apologists) fade away.

They are just....not....credible in any meaningful way, shape or form. They are a tragic, damaging joke. If I weren't so thoroughly exposed to the damage they have done (and continue to do), I would not speak so harshly. But I am....so I do.

My 2 cents.


Interesting two cents. The main objective as I see from folks here is to attack apologists. If they stop that, they may end up actually doing something meaningful.

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Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.


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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:11 am 
stemelbow wrote:
Who knows what we're even talking about? I sure don't.


That is par for the course.


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