It is currently Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:18 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 447 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ... 22  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:23 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:02 pm
Posts: 3701
Droopy wrote:
A wolf among the sheep, even if less of the "ravening wolf" variety and more of the Larry Talbot kind, is still of canine predilection, no?


By their fruits you shall know them.

If the fruits were based on those who ended up leaving the church based on the individuals words/persona/involvement DCP might well be the more “ravening wolf” of the two.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:26 pm 
Teacher
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:56 am
Posts: 275
Droopy wrote:
Quote:
I also watched the last of Dan Wotherspoon's interviews with Daniel Peterson and Daniel (in the 4th podcast in particular) showed the same kind of reasonableness and understanding that John shows with regards to troubling aspects of church history and the 'one true church' claims.



So you are here, for the record, claiming that Daniel Peterson does not accept the Church's claim that it is the "only true and living church" on earth?

Do you think he has a problem with that claim?

CFR.

I sometimes wonder if Daniel Peterson secretly knows the church is not the "only true and living" one on earth. That he secretly knows that things like the first vision and gold plates are just made-up fantasies of Joseph Smith. But his life is too invested in the church to change now. I guess that's how I am too, since my beliefs are still kept private (except to my wife). I still go to church and say all the right things, etc.

_________________
"I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not."
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:26 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 9:06 am
Posts: 9617
Location: Kershaw, SC
Quote:
If the fruits were based on those who ended up leaving the church based on the individuals words/persona/involvement DCP might well be the more “ravening wolf” of the two.


People leave the church for a variety of reasons, all of which, in the end, revolve around an unwillingness and personal resistance to accepting and living its standards and principles, not around anything Daniel Peterson has ever said.

_________________
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:31 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:02 pm
Posts: 3701
Droopy wrote:
People leave the church for a variety of reasons, all of which, in the end, revolve around an unwillingness and personal resistance to accepting and living its standards and principles, not around anything Daniel Peterson has ever said.



So, the same applies to John correct? i.e. neither are wolfs, its the individuals choice, maybe even after sampling the works of both of these men.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:36 pm 
God

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:40 pm
Posts: 5872
Carton wrote:
I sometimes wonder if Daniel Peterson secretly knows the church is not the "only true and living" one on earth. That he secretly knows that things like the first vision and gold plates are just made-up fantasies of Joseph Smith. But his life is too invested in the church to change now. I guess that's how I am too, since my beliefs are still kept private (except to my wife). I still go to church and say all the right things, etc.


Why do you say the right things? Might as well just not talk or something.

Daniel seems to genuinely believe to me.

_________________
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:40 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:33 pm
Posts: 12064
Location: Kli-flos-is-es
Droopy wrote:
Quote:
I also watched the last of Dan Wotherspoon's interviews with Daniel Peterson and Daniel (in the 4th podcast in particular) showed the same kind of reasonableness and understanding that John shows with regards to troubling aspects of church history and the 'one true church' claims.



So you are here, for the record, claiming that Daniel Peterson does not accept the Church's claim that it is the "only true and living church" on earth?

Do you think he has a problem with that claim?

CFR.


Yes, he does. Like I said, he's a quasi universalist.

http://mormonstories.org/271-274-lds-ch ... -peterson/

_________________
Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:45 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 9:06 am
Posts: 9617
Location: Kershaw, SC
I'm not at all sure what Danial means by this but...where are your answers to the points I made above about Southern slavery?

Don't try to slink away, Bluff. Put up, or, well, you know.

_________________
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:49 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:45 pm
Posts: 1176
Droopy wrote:
Quote:
I also watched the last of Dan Wotherspoon's interviews with Daniel Peterson and Daniel (in the 4th podcast in particular) showed the same kind of reasonableness and understanding that John shows with regards to troubling aspects of church history and the 'one true church' claims.



So you are here, for the record, claiming that Daniel Peterson does not accept the Church's claim that it is the "only true and living church" on earth?

Do you think he has a problem with that claim?

CFR.


Your wish is my command Droopy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gylaYQ04PIk

About 9 minutes in, on dealing with polyandry, and about 30 minutes in on dealing with 'one true church' claims.
Note I said that Daniel shows the same kind of reasonableness and understanding, I did NOT say that Daniel Peterson does not accept the Church's claim that it is the 'only true and living church', and am happy to clarify that, but he does so with humility and understanding. I loved this interview.

_________________
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:51 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:45 pm
Posts: 1176
OOps, someone has already linked to it. Sorry about that. I'm obviously not keeping up with the discussion.

_________________
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:54 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 9:06 am
Posts: 9617
Location: Kershaw, SC
Quote:
I did NOT say that Daniel Peterson does not accept the Church's claim that it is the 'only true and living church', and am happy to clarify that, but he does so with humility and understanding.


Most of us do too, Mary.

Until that course of action proves futile, as it commonly does in forums such as this among the kinds of people who tend to congregate in forums such as this.

_________________
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 2:08 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:33 pm
Posts: 12064
Location: Kli-flos-is-es
Droopy wrote:
I'm not at all sure what Danial means by this but...where are your answers to the points I made above about Southern slavery?

Don't try to slink away, Bluff. Put up, or, well, you know.


Again, wrong thread. I think enslaving blacks is a racist practice. I understand that you disagree.

_________________
Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 2:37 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 9:06 am
Posts: 9617
Location: Kershaw, SC
Buffalo wrote:
Droopy wrote:
I'm not at all sure what Danial means by this but...where are your answers to the points I made above about Southern slavery?

Don't try to slink away, Bluff. Put up, or, well, you know.


Again, wrong thread. I think enslaving blacks is a racist practice. I understand that you disagree.



No, not wrong thread, I'm just following you around and keeping tabs. I do see that you've raised another white flag there, however, so never mind.

_________________
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 2:53 pm 
Seedy Academician
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:00 pm
Posts: 13718
Location: The Brutus Memorial Rectory at Cassius University
RayAgostini wrote:
I've had far, far, far more than 100 measly pages of personal criticism against me, examining every aspect of even my personal life (before stronger rules were in place), on this very board, going right back to the beginning. I don't think you were even here for the first year of it, Kish.

Time for some shut eye. Probably not a good idea to post after 14 hours on the road.


I don't seek to minimize your bad experiences on this board. I just personally do not find them anywhere nearly as traumatic as having a print journal that serves as a semi-official outlet of your own Church ostentatiously slam you for 100 pages. It is not about the volume alone, Ray, and I think you know that. It is about the nature of the venue, and its connection with the leadership of the LDS Church--a connection that is closer than ever before, obviously.

It seems, however, that you see some kind of equivalence between this little discussion board of private opinion and the Church-supported and authorized apologetics of their print journals. That is where the two of us differ greatly.

_________________
The Electronic Journal of Jaredite Studies
The Definitive Electronic Jaredite Bibliography

"I don't profess to be such a Prophet as were Joseph Smith and Daniel; but I am a Yankee guesser." ~Brigham Young


Last edited by Kishkumen on Mon May 07, 2012 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 2:54 pm 
Star B

Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:10 pm
Posts: 117
Doctor Scratch wrote:
I'm still very curious about what Scott Gordon said in response to John's "warning."

Meanwhile, we have been met with a stone wall of silence from Dr. Peterson, who instead has opted to write blog posts about how much he enjoys hearing vulgarity and profanity (even though he himself is too much of a milquetoast chicken to actually ever use expletives). It's psychologically fascinating to behold.


No response from Scott as of April 14th. Still hoping one comes.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 3:04 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:33 pm
Posts: 12064
Location: Kli-flos-is-es
Droopy wrote:


No, not wrong thread, I'm just following you around and keeping tabs. I do see that you've raised another white flag there, however, so never mind.


That can't be it, because I promptly responded on the actual relevant thread. Middle of the day intoxication seems more likely in your case.

_________________
Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 3:10 pm 
God

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:40 pm
Posts: 5872
mormonstories wrote:
No response from Scott as of April 14th. Still hoping one comes.


What warning?

And

What's the nature of this "hit piece"? How do we know about it? It doesn't seem like anyone has seen it, right?

_________________
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:10 pm 
Kishkumen wrote:
It seems, however, that you see some kind of equivalence between this little discussion board of private opinion and the Church-supported and authorized apologetics of their print journals. That is where the two of us differ greatly.


What I don't understand about you and Scratch, is that you've both argued, as nauseam, that these journals have long lost any credibility. Isn't this a chance to bury them even deeper in it? Or do you genuinely fear that they might have solid and convincing enough arguments to actually convince members (the three or four who read them, that is) that John is a "wolf in sheep's clothing"? You're giving them far more credibility than you ever have, as a "real threat" to John. You're giving me the impression that you really don't want these criticisms to be made public. FWIW, from the outset, I don't believe they'll convince me that John is a "wolf in sheep's clothing", and I'm pretty sure I can well anticipate most of the arguments that will be forthcoming.

I didn't become acquainted with Mormon apologetics yesterday. I read the very first FRB (initially RBBM) in 1989, and all of them until the late '90s. I've also been on Mormon-related discussion boards for 12 years now, and I don't expect any rabbits to be jumping out of hats. I've also closely followed the Dehlin/Peterson debates where they've occurred, and I closely followed John's posts and his "history" with FAIR/MAD. There's really no need for you to tell me what I "don't understand", because I've been involved with it for considerably longer than you have, or even most here, apart from the "veterans" themselves. In fact, I believe I was "officially" involved with FARMS (1981) even before DCP was.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:23 pm 
B.H. Roberts Chair of Mopologetic Studies
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:44 am
Posts: 6502
Location: Cassius University
Ray:

There is a difference between saying that the Review has no real credibility in the wider world--out in the "Marketplace of Ideas," so to speak--versus worrying about the impact it could have within TBM culture. As for this:

Ray wrote:
Or do you genuinely fear that they might have solid and convincing enough arguments to actually convince members (the three or four who read them, that is) that John is a "wolf in sheep's clothing"?


Their arguments don't have to be "solid and convincing." That's the point. They can rely strictly on their credentials, their authority, and their affiliation with BYU. Far too many leaders in the Church--many bishops and stake presidents--are simply "yes men" who will bow to whatever the BYU "anointed" have said. You seem to be forgetting that a lot of what turns up in the Review is spin-doctoring, ad hominem attack, smear-campaigns, and distortion. So, this isn't a matter of "solid and convincing" argument--it's about the damage that this authoritative but malignant source could wreak.

And who knows? Maybe they will publish anyways, despite the admonitions from the General Authorities. Certainly, some of the Powers That Be at FARMS don't like being told what to do.

_________________
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:23 pm 
B.H. Roberts Chair of Mopologetic Studies
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:44 am
Posts: 6502
Location: Cassius University
mormonstories wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:
I'm still very curious about what Scott Gordon said in response to John's "warning."

Meanwhile, we have been met with a stone wall of silence from Dr. Peterson, who instead has opted to write blog posts about how much he enjoys hearing vulgarity and profanity (even though he himself is too much of a milquetoast chicken to actually ever use expletives). It's psychologically fascinating to behold.


No response from Scott as of April 14th. Still hoping one comes.


I wouldn't hold your breath. He's probably waiting on directions from the Maxwell Institute--waiting to see whether or not they're going to publish.

_________________
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:35 pm 
Seedy Academician
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:00 pm
Posts: 13718
Location: The Brutus Memorial Rectory at Cassius University
Doctor Scratch wrote:
There is a difference between saying that the Review has no real credibility in the wider world--out in the "Marketplace of Ideas," so to speak--versus worrying about the impact it could have within TBM culture....

Their arguments don't have to be "solid and convincing." That's the point. They can rely strictly on their credentials, their authority, and their affiliation with BYU. Far too many leaders in the Church--many bishops and stake presidents--are simply "yes men" who will bow to whatever the BYU "anointed" have said.


I generally agree with this. I don't find a great deal of what I read in these journals persuasive, but I don't doubt that numerous people with priesthood authority to separate people from their membership in the LDS Church do. Furthermore, this is a person's life we are talking about here, and that is precisely what the apologists don't seem to care very much about. They have a vision of what they think Mormonism is about, and if one crosses their line, they will attack that person, regardless of the consequences. John Dehlin is a decent fellow, who has tried to help a lot of hurting people, because the LDS Church has yet to catch up to the challenge of the internet and other issues.

It seems to me that the apologists are smarting that a lot of their lame apologetics are falling flat, leaving John Dehlin and his friends to pick up the pieces by offering kindness and honesty in place of aggression and disingenuous scholarship about the Book of Abraham and so forth. No wonder the apologists are ticked off. But their anger is no justification for attacking John. I am happy that someone was adult enough to step in and put a stop to it.

_________________
The Electronic Journal of Jaredite Studies
The Definitive Electronic Jaredite Bibliography

"I don't profess to be such a Prophet as were Joseph Smith and Daniel; but I am a Yankee guesser." ~Brigham Young


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:40 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:06 pm
Posts: 15049
Location: Sterling, Virginia
Kishkumen wrote:
I generally agree with this. I don't find a great deal of what I read in these journals persuasive, but I don't doubt that numerous people with priesthood authority to separate people from their membership in the LDS Church do. Furthermore, this is a person's life we are talking about here, and that is precisely what the apologists don't seem to care very much about. They have a vision of what they think Mormonism is about, and if one crosses their line, they will attack that person, regardless of the consequences. John Dehlin is a decent fellow, who has tried to help a lot of hurting people, because the LDS Church has yet to catch up to the challenge of the internet and other issues.

It seems to me that the apologists are smarting that a lot of their lame apologetics are falling flat, leaving John Dehlin and his friends to pick up the pieces by offering kindness and honesty in place of aggression and disingenuous scholarship about the Book of Abraham and so forth. No wonder the apologists are ticked off. But their anger is no justification for attacking John. I am happy that someone was adult enough to step in and put a stop to it.


I will never understand the personal hostility and aggression on both sides of the critic/apologist divide. I learned a long time ago that most people, no matter where they stand, are good people who honestly believe what they say. There are some bad eggs among critics (for some reason they're usually "Christian") and of course some of the nastier apologists. I just don't see the point.

_________________
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 447 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ... 22  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], robuchan and 15 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Revival Theme By Brandon Designs By B.Design-Studio © 2007-2008 Brandon
Revival Theme Based off SubLite By Echo © 2007-2008 Echo
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group