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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 7:18 am 
Son of Perdition
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Drifting wrote:
Is FAIR the official Church source for finding answers to questions?
Or does it have equally unofficial standing with MormonThink etc?


Actually, FAIR is like a pig's sty full of all kinds of opinions and ideas produced by the wild imaginations of LDS apologists. It's nothing but an Internet hot spot where loud mouthed Mormons can print their stuff at will (subject to approval by Cracker Jack scholars) and take a stab at defending their church and religion.

FARMS is just a temporary arm of the church wherein ideas of scholars (guys with diplomas) are presented to the church as worthy of consideration. All of it is only the opinions of men and is in no way considered offical church doctrine. FARMS could be shut down at any time on any given day. It's like a readers section for Mormons.

The Book of Abraham is official scripture to the whole church and is binding on the members. The Facsimile is part of the Book of Abraham and the Explanations therein are part of the revelations of Joseph Smith restoring Egyptian history to the world through his ability to translate the Egyptian language. It is binding on the church and was ratified in General Conference as the mind and will of the Lord. The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve saw to it, and the congregation raised their hands in approval. It was a done deal and later served as proof that Joseph Smith lied about his professed ability to translate.

I think that nonmembers who find out about the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 will never join the church. Hence, church growth will slow as the public gains further knowledge about Mormonism -- thanks to Google! I also think it's reasonable to assume that members who find out about the false claims of Facsimile No. 3 will seriously question the ability of Joseph Smith to translate. That could lead to the loss of testimony and that's a good thing. Loosing a testimony of Mormonism is a beautiful experience -- frees the soul and allows fresh air to invigorate the spiritual lungs.

Paul O

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 7:27 pm 
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Where did you get your Ph.D. in Egyptology, Shulem?


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 12:37 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Where did you get your Ph.D. in Egyptology, Shulem?



You seem to agree with the one Ph.D. holder that authenticates that which you already want to believe about the Book of Abraham, yet disagree with the plethora of Ph.D. holders that have used evidentiary methodology to show the Book of Abragam is a fraud.

Hmmm....

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:06 am 
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It's the same story with so called science verses the Bible. Which flavor of scientist do you prefer. You imply that the Ph.D.'s are ignorant who believe differently than you. I prefer the same ones that Christ would prefer. He obviously believed in the OT accounts, and being the Creator, he should know, right? He also warned about men being puffed up in pride because they think they as far as the wisdom of the world is concerned.


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:43 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
It's the same story with so called science verses the Bible. Which flavor of scientist do you prefer. You imply that the Ph.D.'s are ignorant who believe differently than you. I prefer the same ones that Christ would prefer. He obviously believed in the OT accounts, and being the Creator, he should know, right? He also warned about men being puffed up in pride because they think they as far as the wisdom of the world is concerned.



Interesting.
You use the phrase 'you imply that the Ph.D.'s are ignorant who believe differently than you.'
Can you see anything ironic in those words?

As a matter of fact, I didn't imply anything of the kind. I implied that you choose to believe the microscopic minority of Ph.D. holder who happens to agree with your already held belief about the Book of Abraham. I implied that you choose to disbelieve the overwhelmingly vast majority of Ph.D. holders who, through evidential methodology, have concluded that the Book of Abraham is not what it claims to be.

Which specific Ph.D. holding supporter of the Book of Abraham do you think Christ would wish to be associated with and why?

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:49 am 
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It's more than a microscopic number, and BC has not apostasized, but apparently you have if you were ever even a member. It is doctrine if it is a TRUE revelation which is recognized by the church


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 3:24 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
It's more than a microscopic number, and BC has not apostasized, but apparently you have if you were ever even a member. It is doctrine if it is a TRUE revelation which is recognized by the church



I repeat..

Which specific Ph.D. holding supporter of the Book of Abraham do you think Christ would wish to be associated with and why?

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 4:07 am 
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Referring back to the 'growth' of the Church...

Out of 7.011 billion people on the planet, the Lords One True and fastest growing Church can only attract and keep actively engaged less than 0.1% of them.

Satan's team appears to have the edge...

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 6:12 am 
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Drifting wrote:
Referring back to the 'growth' of the Church...

Out of 7.011 billion people on the planet, the Lords One True and fastest growing Church can only attract and keep actively engaged less than 0.1% of them.

Satan's team appears to have the edge...

Not really...Satan's team only composes about 4%-%7 of the world pop.....maybe you just are not trying hard enough?

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 7:30 am 
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subgenius wrote:
Drifting wrote:
Referring back to the 'growth' of the Church...

Out of 7.011 billion people on the planet, the Lords One True and fastest growing Church can only attract and keep actively engaged less than 0.1% of them.

Satan's team appears to have the edge...

Not really...Satan's team only composes about 4%-%7 of the world pop.....maybe you just are not trying hard enough?



Nope, according to Mormonism there is only one true Church, all the rest are an abomination and therefore are...on Satan's team.

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 7:53 am 
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Drifting wrote:
Nope, according to Mormonism there is only one true Church, all the rest are an abomination and therefore are...on Satan's team.


There are, according to the Book of Mormon, only two churches. One is a giant church that covers the whole world and has many coastlines. The other is a tiny little church with few in numbers. That is the church in which the US government stepped in and ordered them to hault the practice of polygamy or face prosecution. Some of the leaders of this tiny little church went into hiding and refused to obey the laws of the land.

I'm not making this stuff up. Mormonism used to teach that it was a glorious thing for a man to have several wives. The church doesn't teach that anymore because it's embarrassing. The church feels somewhat ashamed of their past and doesn't like to talk about it. It's behind them now.

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 8:30 am 
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Drifting wrote:
subgenius wrote:
Not really...Satan's team only composes about 4%-%7 of the world pop.....maybe you just are not trying hard enough?



Nope, according to Mormonism there is only one true Church, all the rest are an abomination and therefore are...on Satan's team.


Indeed. As Jesus himself said to Brother Joseph:

"I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all ccorrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 12:27 pm 
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Buffalo wrote:
Indeed. As Jesus himself said to Brother Joseph:

"I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all ccorrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."
(emphasis above mine)
Some were contending for the Methodist faith, some for the Presbyterian, and some for the Baptist.
follow the link, read, and understand that Joseph Smith clearly and gramatically details that these three "sects" were subject of the pronouns which are bold-faced above, and that these were the subject of his prayer.

But maybe you have actual support for another subject for those pronouns, which you would care to share....indeed.

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 12:39 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
Buffalo wrote:
Indeed. As Jesus himself said to Brother Joseph:

"I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all ccorrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."
(emphasis above mine)
Some were contending for the Methodist faith, some for the Presbyterian, and some for the Baptist.
follow the link, read, and understand that Joseph Smith clearly and gramatically details that these three "sects" were subject of the pronouns which are bold-faced above, and that these were the subject of his prayer.

But maybe you have actual support for another subject for those pronouns, which you would care to share....indeed.


Incorrect, as usual. Jesus' statement was given in the following context:

Quote:
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”


http://www.LDS.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1.3?lang=eng#2

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 2:24 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
It's the same story with so called science verses the Bible.


With the bible you are hard pressed to find any who would support a literal view of things like a global flood or young earth, and the few you find are believers first and have obvious bias and agenda's. You can't find any who are not christian and think there is evidence for a young earth or global flood. I wonder why. Now with the Book of Abraham you have no Egyptologists that have said the facsimiles or existing papyri translate into the Book of Abraham narrative Joseph provided. This includes the few LDS ones as well.

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Which flavor of scientist do you prefer.


I prefer the real ones that actually have some science to provide. When it comes to the flood or young earth we see no science or processes to support a religious conclusion. What dating processes do they use and why should they be considered accurate?

Quote:
You imply that the Ph.D.'s are ignorant who believe differently than you.


Just very biased with religious conclusions, not scientific ones. Again you can't find any outside of the conservative christian world.

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I prefer the same ones that Christ would prefer. He obviously believed in the OT accounts, and being the Creator, he should know, right?


How would you know who the real Jesus was. All accounts come after by those who were not there.

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He also warned about men being puffed up in pride because they think they as far as the wisdom of the world is concerned.


The puffed up ones are the ones who incorrectly think they are going with the wisdom of God not realizing the whole time it was just the wisdom of men long dead who had little knowledge of the world around them. I think it wiser not to ignore what man has discovered in more recent times.

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:05 pm 
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...the 'growth' of the Church...

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:28 pm 
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I don't hardly know where to begin . There are just too many false statements for me to have time to deal with. However, there is one that really stands out to me, and that is the one that stated; how do we know who the real Jesus was, and that all the accounts were written after His ministry. Although it may not be proven what the exact date of some of the written accounts of Him were written, we know that they were written by his contemporaries and disciples who lived at the same time that He did and were eye witnesses of His ministry. A good example of this is the Book of John. John was one of His apostles who was with Him during His ministry!


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 6:11 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
I don't hardly know where to begin . There are just too many false statements for me to have time to deal with. However, there is one that really stands out to me, and that is the one that stated; how do we know who the real Jesus was, and that all the accounts were written after His ministry. Although it may not be proven what the exact date of some of the written accounts of Him were written, we know that they were written by his contemporaries and disciples who lived at the same time that He did and were eye witnesses of His ministry. A good example of this is the Book of John. John was one of His apostles who was with Him during His ministry!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_John

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:21 am 
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Themis, in my opinion, you quoted a very poor source. Let me tell you some reasons why, other than it disagrees with some other sources. First of all, it is not vague as if someone were telling the story later, or if it was written later by John, he had a fantastic memory, or else it was obviously inspired, since exact hours when particular events took place are given. Also, he quotes what many of the other apostles stated. Also, he gives account of how he leaned on the breast of Jesus at the last supper, and that he was with Peter and James, although James was martyred before this gospel was written. He also had a certain peculiar and modest way of introducing himself. So, far all these reasons and perhaps more, it is apparent that it was John himself who wrote this gospel, although it does appear that some inserts may have been made to his writing at a later date.


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 8:48 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Themis, in my opinion, you quoted a very poor source.


Although I am not claiming it is a great source, I am not surprised you would think it a poor one. :eek: It really is only a starting point anyways.

Quote:
Let me tell you some reasons why, other than it disagrees with some other sources.


Interesting you don't quote them.

Quote:
First of all, it is not vague as if someone were telling the story later, or if it was written later by John, he had a fantastic memory, or else it was obviously inspired, since exact hours when particular events took place are given.


Your ignorance is really very apparent on all subjects here. You really need to learn a lot more. I have already suggested some good scientific basics, but I think historical methods is really needed.

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 9:41 pm 
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Themis, I have read the Bible from cover to cover and gone over it and studied it for more than 50 years as well as reading many commentaries, etc., etc., etc. You won't find very many Christian theologians who don't believe that the Gospel of John was written mostly by John.


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