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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:53 am 
God

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I told you already that I have listed them here and I am not listing them again!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:59 am 
God

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gdemetz wrote:
I told you already that I have listed them here and I am not listing them again!!!


If you mean the nonsense you have spouted in this thread...
:lol: You got nuttin'

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:17 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
Come on guys, there are many others with PHD's who agree with me. Jewish history not accurate, and no evidence for an exodus from Egypt?! Now your prejudices are really showing! I would suggest that you check out these sites:

"Has the Exodus Really Been Disproven?"
"Archaeological Evidence for the Exodus"
"The Catholic Knight, Science and the Exodus"

There are many more.


For a while there I thought your postings, frequent and on basically every topic, were legitimate. When you responded to a question by me about polygamy I thought I got a truthful answer. But now, however, I am becoming more and more convinced that you are indeed a troll. As another poster has stated, you often post without giving references, either to author or date.

I have spent a number of hours researching each and every of your above headlines, supposedly of internet articles or even books. This is what I have found.

gdemetz wrote:
"Has the Exodus Really Been Disproven?"


This was the best article. But it was hardly more than an article. It was written by Lawrence H. Schiffman.

(Lawrence H. Schiffman is Ethel and Irvin A. Edelman Professor in Hebrew and Judaic Studies at New York University, where he serves as Chair of the Skirball Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies. He is an internationally known scholar of the Dead Sea Scrolls and recently co-edited the Encyclopedia of the Dead Sea Scrolls (Oxford, 2000).

He gives the date of the exodus as 1250 BCE but states that the Egyptians got upset about foreigners in their country around 1580 BCE. That makes 330 years! of being upset before the Israelites finally left Egypt (and it took a large number of plagues and killing of the pharaoh's firstborn before Moses could actually pack up and leave).

He further states (but without referencing to any scripture at all) that the Exodus wandered through the desert to avoid Egyptian troops along the coast. (Exodus reference please!!!) And his proof is that Egyptian records of troop placement shows that they occupied the coast. That isn't proof.!

But in his summation, Schiffman concludes: We may not possess, at least at present, conclusive proof that the Israelites left Egypt en masse as the Bible describes. Hello!

Schiffman references an to an article: Biblical Archaeology Review, Hershel Shanks (Ha'aretz Magazine, Nov. 5, 1999). The Biblical Archaeology Review is a magazine put out by the Biblical Archaeology Society. http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/

Hershel Shanks is an magazine editor, not a scholar.

"Herzog's Attack on the Bible Unjustified ", by Hershel Shanks can be read at
http://individual.utoronto.ca/mfkolarci ... hanks.html

Wherein he states: We don't need Professor Herzog to tell us that 2 million Israelites did not cross the Sinai on their way out of Egypt, despite the biblical implication as to this number (Exodus 12:37)

Shanks offers no more proof of anything, other than words, than does Schiffman.

gdemetz wrote:
"Archaeological Evidence for the Exodus"


Now this is really a troll argument. This search provides 88,300 articles and I, honestly, do not know how to pick from them. The first article provides pictures of various relics. One, the Merneptah Stele, mentions Israel. But it is worthy of note that this is in the land of Canaan and is the only mention of Israel in any dated find.

The rest of the article refers to a list of names given in ancient finds that seem to link to David or Moses or Hebrew sounding names. This is not evidence. Besides, several articles by Egyptian scholars show these interpretations to be both inaccurate and to be mispronunciations of actual Egyptian.

A very unscholarly article....but nice to look at. This article is referenced as proof by a good many other articles.

One other site mentioned by this google search is: http://1peter315.blogspot.se/2010/11/is ... e-for.html

It concludes: Let us assume though that no compelling archaeological evidence surfaces that directly affirms the events of the Exodus.

But the best article comes from Rabbi Meir Schuster. http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/285/Q1/

He states: Now, not finding trash could be "evidence against" the Exodus if the archeologists knew exactly where such trash should be. .... And exactly what kind of trash were they looking for? Candy wrappers?....Were they looking for human waste? ....The Talmud says that the manna was miraculous food that was totaly absorbed by the body; a person didn't have to go the bathroom after eating the manna.

Whoa! Miracle food...total absorption....no waste? But can you imagine never going to the toilet for 40 years? Is that heaven or is it hell?

gdemetz wrote:
"The Catholic Knight, Science and the Exodus"


This one only gave 3 hits on Google, so I'm assuming I found the right one.
http://catholicknight.blogspot.se/2008/ ... xodus.html

Once again, not a single piece of evidence. Just a posting and a few responses, a letters to the editor type of posting.

So all in all, your three sites offers no information at all. I've spent hours checking out yours and their sources and it doesn't contain a single piece of real meat to chew on, nor even a bone to gnaw on. Not one single piece of evidence that the 40 year trek by Moses and the 600,000 soldiers ever took place.

All you're doing is Googling a topic and then picking three likely sites. You've done no checking, you don't even which actual sites you've listed.

In other words, you're just purposely wasting time. You're a troll until you prove otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:29 pm 
God

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bcuzbcuz wrote:
All you're doing is Googling a topic and then picking three likely sites. You've done no checking, you don't even which actual sites you've listed.

In other words, you're just purposely wasting time. You're a troll until you prove otherwise.



He's a definite troll.

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:13 am 
God

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Drifting wrote:
bcuzbcuz wrote:
All you're doing is Googling a topic and then picking three likely sites. You've done no checking, you don't even which actual sites you've listed.

In other words, you're just purposely wasting time. You're a troll until you prove otherwise.



He's a definite troll.


I wouldn't say troll. He is very ignorant of real science. He is only interesting in looking for those support what he wants to believe. He doesn't even spend any time trying to understand in detail how it is supposed to work. I notice with him as well as others that they will always have to enter into the possibility game of implausibilities. For many they may not absolutely impossible which is more then good enough for those who need to believe. The funny thing is that modern science that has provided mountains of evidence that make a global flood impossible has it's roots in Christianity. Science never really has even been trying to prove or disprove a global flood. It just did naturally as we gained knowledge of the world around us. Even using common sense to think about a global flood 4-5k years ago will make one question that it really could happen. You really do have to be biased to such a degree that no one can really talk sense to them. This is why I have encouraged him to talk to LDS scientists who don't believe in a global flood. He may be slightly more open minded to here it from them.

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:31 pm 
God

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Hogwash! You guys just don't want to accept that there is any evidence no matter what you see! You have the childish idea that despite the detailed Biblical account, along with other accounts and evidences, that the whole story was just made up! Check out this site: "IBSS Biblical Archaeology, Evidence of the Exodus from Egypt." This sites more than 100 other sources!


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:30 am 
God

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gdemetz wrote:
Hogwash! You guys just don't want to accept that there is any evidence no matter what you see! You have the childish idea that despite the detailed Biblical account, along with other accounts and evidences, that the whole story was just made up! Check out this site: "IBSS Biblical Archaeology, Evidence of the Exodus from Egypt." This sites more than 100 other sources!


:lol:

You are definitely the parody sock puppet of someone on here.

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Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:45 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Hogwash! You guys just don't want to accept that there is any evidence no matter what you see! You have the childish idea that despite the detailed Biblical account, along with other accounts and evidences, that the whole story was just made up! Check out this site: "IBSS Biblical Archaeology, Evidence of the Exodus from Egypt." This sites more than 100 other sources!


Just where in this document do you find any evidence of the Exodus out of Egypt? Tell me page and verse. I want to know what it is that you assume is evidence.

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:52 pm 
God

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gdemetz wrote:
Hogwash! You guys just don't want to accept that there is any evidence no matter what you see!


As to a world wide flood I don't recall you providing any evidence. The whale bones were not evidence of a flood in any way if you understand some basis science in this area. You have yet to answer how a global flood did not kill any people, animals or plants. Civilizations kept on going before and after. How does one get millions of species of animals on one boat, especially since many of them would have come from areas to far away or to hard to get to. Keep thinking about it and it becomes less plausible until I had to admit it would be impossible, unless God used all kinds of magic, and magic to hide it after.

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:52 pm 
God

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It's just like the flood, only it is more recent. The reference I gave you had more than 100 references to it. Just read it, and if you have a problem with one of the pieces evidence he lists, you can let me know.


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:41 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
It's just like the flood, only it is more recent. The reference I gave you had more than 100 references to it. Just read it, and if you have a problem with one of the pieces evidence he lists, you can let me know.


Read it.
I have a problem with all of them.

Which one do you believe is the most compelling?

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:59 am 
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Drifting wrote:
gdemetz wrote:
It's just like the flood, only it is more recent. The reference I gave you had more than 100 references to it. Just read it, and if you have a problem with one of the pieces evidence he lists, you can let me know.


Read it.
I have a problem with all of them.

Which one do you believe is the most compelling?


He brought up wale bones, but we dealt with that one already. Funny he doesn't want to explore what the scientific community knows about the world around us. Many of them are even Christian.

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:23 am 
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The problem here is that some like gdemetz have no idea what real science is about and how it works, and why theories are likely to be correct. He goes off on these crack pot sites that don't even get into detail of the processes that support a global flood. An example is the mention Erratic Boulders. All they seem to say is that they were deposited far from there source by the great flood, but give no details of what processes explain where they got there. The real scientists who study these things can find there source by examining glaciers and where they moved in the past. The rocky mountains are a good example. Glaciers from the mountains moved down and out of the mountains in generally in a NE direction in northern US and up into Canada. They didn't get far before hitting the Laurentide ice sheet which turned the ice into a SE direction. This means that erratics would be moved out of the mountains and then would turn SE with the ice that is carrying them. When you look at the evidence it supports the scientific understanding and not some crack pot theories about a global flood. We can do the same with the other things you want to believes are evidences but it would take to much time, so it is reasonable to ask which one you think is most compelling and from from there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacial_erratic

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:55 pm 
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I don't think that any one of those evidences by itself is very compelling, but if they are all considered as a whole I think it is compelling. You know, there are a lot of scientists with PHD's who don't agree with the ideas which are commonly expressed here.


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:35 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
I don't think that any one of those evidences by itself is very compelling, but if they are all considered as a whole I think it is compelling. You know, there are a lot of scientists with PHD's who don't agree with the ideas which are commonly expressed here.


Hi gdemetz!

All those evidences (even taken as a whole) are without merit. I understand that you're hoping to defend your beliefs and bolster your world view by citing these, but they don't really convince anyone else with the most basic understanding of science. You're kind of flogging a dead horse.

I respect your valiant attempt to convince others, but it fails at multiple levels. Your beliefs are based on unproven premises. Your defenses are based on wild speculation by others who are trying to find even the most ridiculous explanation to support their preconceived ideologies.

Good luck with that.

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:22 pm 
God

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Why do you think that there are many with PHD's in science who agree with me? Everybody picks their own flavor of scientist, I guess.


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:28 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
Why do you think that there are many with PHD's in science who agree with me? Everybody picks their own flavor of scientist, I guess.


Why do you think the overwhelming majority (all, with the exception of those with a religiously based vested interest) of people sporting scientific PHD's disagree with you?

Of course, that also means that when you use the word 'many' you are actually referring to a quantity of people better described as 'hardly any'.

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:32 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Why do you think that there are many with PHD's in science who agree with me? Everybody picks their own flavor of scientist, I guess.


I have no idea how many PhD's can be listed for this OP, on either side to prove or disprove glass and steel in the BofM or support or disagree with the exodus out of Egypt. Usually collecting a number of names for a list proves nothing.

But I suggest you look up "Project Steve", both for how it came about, its tongue in cheek approach to just this type of issue, and how it has evolved. If you're not acquainted with it, the project began as a lark. A pro-creation site listed a dozen or so names of PhD's who believed in the young earth theory. To counter the list, a few scientists, who happened to have the name 'Steve' and were biologists, started to find out how many 'Steve's (Stephanie's, Stefan's, Esteban's etc) who believed in evolution, would sign a counter list.

As of April 2012 "Project Steve" has 1200 names. Each of the signatories must agree to:

Evolution is a vital, well-supported, unifying principle of the biological sciences, and the scientific evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the idea that all living things share a common ancestry. Although there are legitimate debates about the patterns and processes of evolution, there is no serious scientific doubt that evolution occurred or that natural selection is a major mechanism in its occurrence. It is scientifically inappropriate and pedagogically irresponsible for creationist pseudoscience, including but not limited to "intelligent design," to be introduced into the science curricula of our nation's public schools.

Inspired by Project Steve, and motivated by media coverage of the Discovery Institute's "Dissent From Darwinism" list, during the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District case, R. Joe Brandon initiated a four-day, word-of-mouth petition of scientists in support of evolution in October 2005. During the four-day drive A Scientific Support For Darwinism And For Public Schools Not To Teach Intelligent Design As Science gathered 7733 signatures of verifiable scientists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Steve

But the bigger list doesn't win. "We did not wish to mislead the public into thinking that scientific issues are decided by who has the longer list of scientists!"

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:52 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Why do you think that there are many with PHD's in science who agree with me? Everybody picks their own flavor of scientist, I guess.


I have only seen a handful. That is very small based on how many there are. You ask why, but ignore that the few who support what you believe also have the same beliefs as you, while the rest have a variety of different beliefs including Christians who say the evidence does not support a global flood. Why would fellow Christians with Phds in the hard sciences say this. Why are there no scientists outside of Christianity that support what you believe. If their really is evidence you would think some of them would say hey we see evidence of a large flood all over the earth. This is because there really is not any evidence for a global flood, and mountains of it against. This evidence has not been complied to prove it wrong, but what has been learned by just trying to understand the world around us. Every piece of evidence you think supports a global flood that you brought up has been dealt with. If you want to bring up more feel free. I brought up the erratics and why it is not evidence of a global flood. Your problem again is that you have already made conclusions before even coming into the discussion, and are not interested in finding out if you are wrong. This is why you take no time to learn from the scientific community some basic science.

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:49 pm 
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There are much more than a few. There are a lot, and I do take time to look at both sides, although I admit that sometimes it gets a bit over my head from both sides.


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:33 am 
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From this moment on, we have one more account of creation.

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