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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:14 am 
God

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I will try to find out. I know that the title was, "Science and Mormonism."


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:27 am 
Has More Degrees Than Droopy
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bcuzbcuz wrote:
gdemetz wrote:
Read the writings of Dr. E. Silvestru. He is just one of many scientists who point to evidence of a great flood, and by the way, this was before the times of the pharaohs.


The Egyptians themselves kept records of birth and death of their pharaohs. They all lived normal life spans, quite unlike the key names of the Bible from Adam to Noah. You've got Adam, living 930 years, Seth to 912, Enosh 905, Kenan 910, Mahalalel 895, Jared 962, Lamech 777, Methusaleh living to the ripe old age of 969, which according to some, means that he lived right through the flood. That brings the flood in at 1656-8 after Adam first arrived on the scene. If you count using the Septuagint calendar, the flood comes at 2262 after Adam. Following the flood Noah lives to the age of 950. Most of these guys didn't get around to having any kids until they were a couple of hundred years old. The flood either happened at 1656 AM (Masoretic calendar), 2262 AM (Alexandrinus calendar), 2242 AM (Vaticanus calendar), 1307 AM (Samaritan Calendar) You pick! These same calendars have the time period between the flood and birth of Abraham at 292 years (Masoretic), 1072 years (Alexandrinus), 1172 years (Vaticanus), or 942 years (Samaritan). You pick!

But the calendars finally get together and date history from Abraham relatively equally saying he was born 1976 BCE (Gen. 11:26, if you're keeping track)

That puts the flood anywhere from 2268 BCE to 3148 BCE. Boy, am I ever looking forward to someone finding Noah's ark so we can carbon date the wood and get this all straightened out.

Meanwhile, in Egypt, the pharaohs from the pre-dynastic periods Scorpion I and II and Ka from around 3200 BCE meld into the first dynasty pharaohs of Menes 3080 BCE. From then on the record follows each of the pharaohs through Aha, Djer, Djet, Meretneith, Den, Anedjib, Semerkhet, Qa'a to 2860 BCE. Each pharaoh ruled for 10 or twenty years, with one apparently ruling 50 years but definitely nothing like the Judean prophets of nearly a thousand years.

The second dynasty goes from 2860 to 2727 BCE with Hotepsekhemwi (23 years), Nebra (10 years), Ninetjer (44 years), Weneg (3 years), Senedj (10 years), Sekhemib (26 years), Khasekhemwi (27 years). That brings us up to 2727 BCE. There follows a period where the dates are unsure because each new pharaoh starts the calendar over again with the year one. And apparently with no clear cut leader or maybe a time of disorder, no body keeps count. So we jump to 2686.

Still well within the framework of possible years for the flood we continue with Sanakhte (18 years), Djoser (19 years), Sekhemkhet (6 years), Khaba (6 years), Huni (24 years). That takes us to 2613 BCE and into the 4th dynasty.

Now things get interesting. We had Djoser in the last group, who built one of the earliest pyramids at Saqqara, sometime during his reign between 2630-2611 BCE and we have the most famous pyramids at Giza for Khufu (aka Cheops) 2589-2566 BCE. These dates, unlike the Bible dates, can be and have been confirmed by numerous scholars. Sneferu reigned between 2613-2589 (24 years). Khufu 2589-2566 (23 years), Djedefra 2566-2558 (8 years), Khafre (aka Chefren) 2558-2532 (26 years), Menkaure (aka Mykerinos) 2532-2504 (28 years) and Shepseskaf 2504-2500 (4 years).

If you're going to use the most common calendar of events for Biblical stories, the Masoretic calendar, which puts Adam birth at 3924 BCE, then you have pyramids standing long before the flood, at 2295 BCE. So somehow the people of Egypt built huge pyramids, then got wiped out by the flood and then went right back to building pyramids after the flood. To date 118 pyramids have been discovered in Egypt.

Isn't it strange that while the Egyptian rulers only lived about 40 to 70 years of age, the Judean prophets were living 900+ years?? Too bad nobody can confirm in any way the ages of those old prophets, other than from the stories written about them a thousand years after they had died. Is it anyway possible that in the story telling somebody streeeeetched the truth about the number of years these old guys lived?
Greatness here.

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:37 am 
Has More Degrees Than Droopy
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gdemetz wrote:
Themis, there are many accounts in many different civilizations concerning a great flood...


"Great" doesn't equal "Global". No one critical of the "global flood" hypothesis will dispute "great" floods happening in Mesopotamia or the Nile River Valley because they indeed did happen. In those cases the flood was localized to one small river valley region.

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Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded.-charity 3/7/07

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I peeked in the back [of the Bible] Frank, the Devil did it.
I avoid church religiously.
This isn't one of my sermons, I expect you to listen.


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:42 am 
God

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Yes, me too, but I heard some years back that was an expedition to a mountain in turkey following the report of a Russian pilot who spotted something there, and many were saying that that was the ark? Does anyone know anything about that?


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:45 am 
God

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gdemetz wrote:
Yes, me too, but I heard some years back that was an expedition to a mountain in turkey following the report of a Russian pilot who spotted something there, and many were saying that that was the ark? Does anyone know anything about that?


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... n-culture/

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:48 am 
Has More Degrees Than Droopy
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gdemetz wrote:
Yes, me too, but I heard some years back that was an expedition to a mountain in turkey following the report of a Russian pilot who spotted something there, and many were saying that that was the ark? Does anyone know anything about that?


This:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... n-culture/

Money quote in my opinion: "'I don't know of any expedition that ever went looking for the ark and didn't find it,' said Paul Zimansky, an archaeologist specializing in the Middle East at Stony Brook University in New York State."

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Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded.-charity 3/7/07

MASH quotes
I peeked in the back [of the Bible] Frank, the Devil did it.
I avoid church religiously.
This isn't one of my sermons, I expect you to listen.


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:49 am 
Has More Degrees Than Droopy
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Great minds google alike.

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Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded.-charity 3/7/07

MASH quotes
I peeked in the back [of the Bible] Frank, the Devil did it.
I avoid church religiously.
This isn't one of my sermons, I expect you to listen.


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:20 am 
God

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I will check that site out as well as others.


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:18 am 
tired, less active investigator
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Fortunately, all important relic of christianity was found.

For example John the Baptist's heads.
They can be visit (all the nine) in different cathedrals and monasteries.

Don't believe wikipedia, if it says only seven. Line upon line, line upon line; here a little, there a little, atheists take up all important position...

BTW After all, Noah's ark can rebuild from the splinters of Christ's cross, guarded around the world - in case the ark was gone goose.

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:13 am 
God

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Bond James Bond wrote:

This:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... n-culture/

Money quote in my opinion: "'I don't know of any expedition that ever went looking for the ark and didn't find it,' said Paul Zimansky, an archaeologist specializing in the Middle East at Stony Brook University in New York State."


LOL Unfortunately we see what we want to see.

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:17 am 
God

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gdemetz wrote:
Yes, I have read some Henke writings. I also read a book once that I found interesting which was written by a Mormon scientist (forgot his name), entitled, "Science and Mormonism." He also put forth opinions which differ from what you guys have stated.


You need to start looking for those who don't hold your views. This demonstrates more of a willingness to be open minded. Most LDS scientists do not. Try BYU if you like.

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:28 pm 
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Yes, I try to read just about anything relating to theology. It is apparent, from what I have read, the the supposed ark discovered which I previously mentioned, is not Noah's ark. However, in relation to this, perhaps, you will find the writings of Dr. David Livingston interesting in regards to the flood and Egyptology.


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:16 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Yes, I try to read just about anything relating to theology. It is apparent, from what I have read, the the supposed ark discovered which I previously mentioned, is not Noah's ark.

:surprised:

Quote:
However, in relation to this, perhaps, you will find the writings of Dr. David Livingston interesting in regards to the flood and Egyptology.


:rolleyes:

You resist the abundance of actual evidence in favour of a clung to belief based on something someone wrote down thousands of years ago about an event that supposedly happened thousands of years earlier than they were alive.

It's like you writing an account of what happened to Santa Claus the day Jesus was born and somebody in two thousand years time reading it and treating it as historical fact.

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"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:34 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Yes, me too, but I heard some years back that was an expedition to a mountain in turkey following the report of a Russian pilot who spotted something there, and many were saying that that was the ark? Does anyone know anything about that?


If something, anything, had been found that answered a question that stands as thorn in the side for Christianity, Judaism and Islam and of course, Mormonism, the news would be broadcast all over the world. If you have to find some obscure site on the internet that mumbles about one thing or another having MAYBE significance about Noah's ark, you can know that nothing has been found.

If any wood from the ark (or the cross of Jesus, for that matter) has been found, a simple carbon 14 test would confirm it's age.

No news, is bad news.

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:37 am 
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bcuzbcuz wrote:
No news, is bad news.


No news, is the only news...

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Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:53 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Yes, I try to read just about anything relating to theology. It is apparent, from what I have read, the the supposed ark discovered which I previously mentioned, is not Noah's ark. However, in relation to this, perhaps, you will find the writings of Dr. David Livingston interesting in regards to the flood and Egyptology.


Do you mean Dr. David Livingstone who was the first European who discovered Victoia Falls? The Dr. David Livingston who died 1873?

Or do you mean Dr. David Livingston who runs http://www.thespaceshow.com/ who earned his BA from the University of Arizona, an MBA in International Business Management from Golden Gate University in San Francisco, and his doctorate in business administration (DBA) at Golden Gate? His doctoral dissertation was titled Outer Space Commerce: Its History and Prospects.

Or do you mean Dr. David Livinston, sex offender, who more than twenty years ago, a New York OB/GYN Dr. David Livingston was indicted on charges of first-degree rape, sodomy and sexual abuse involving his 15-year-old stepdaughter? Eventually he was only charged with a misdemeanor and could not continue practicing in New York while also denied practicing in Connecticut and Massachusetts.

Read more: http://spotlight.vitals.com/2010/02/dr- ... z1sTxLwCGn

Or do you mean David Livingston who produced various Star Trek episodes?

Or do you mean Dr. David Palmer Livingston Jr. who got his PhD from Andrews Univeristy, a Seventh Day Adventist University, that does not list Livingston as one of their Notable Alumni?

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non American non-mormons = because it is just the better wager, globally speaking.(Thankyou, Subgenius)


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:27 am 
God

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gdemetz wrote:
Yes, I try to read just about anything relating to theology. It is apparent, from what I have read, the the supposed ark discovered which I previously mentioned, is not Noah's ark. However, in relation to this, perhaps, you will find the writings of Dr. David Livingston interesting in regards to the flood and Egyptology.


Don't limit yourself to theology. This is probably why you are very ignorant of science. Try reading or studying geology from the scientific community. Learn why they think the world is billions of years old. How fossils are formed, and all the other processes of geology. Try learning the different dating methods from thw scientists who use them to see why they use them and consider them accurate, and how they try to make sure the dates are as accurate as possible. Like I said earlier talk to professors in some of the hard sciences like geology, biology, physics, chemistry that are active LDS and see what they think of a global flood or young earth. You might be a little less biased to talk to them. And don't just try to find the few who you think will hold your views, but the many more that don't to see why they don't.

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:02 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Yes, I try to read just about anything relating to theology. It is apparent, from what I have read, the the supposed ark discovered which I previously mentioned, is not Noah's ark. However, in relation to this, perhaps, you will find the writings of Dr. David Livingston interesting in regards to the flood and Egyptology.


I finally googled to Livingston and read his ideas regarding Egyptology. He says outright that anything prior to 3000 BCE in Egypt is impossible, therefore wrong. He also states that he set out to prove the Bible true. He was involved in the ARCimaging group that went to Turkey to look for Noah's arc. They claimed to have hundreds of artifacts but I can find none referenced or photographed.

His claim that that rain and river deltas are all events that are only post-flood lacks anything close to proof.

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”So why should non Americans bother about the American constitution?[/quote]
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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:58 pm 
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He makes a good point that your flavor of scientists accept the Egyptian account, but reject the Hebrew account.


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:39 pm 
Has More Degrees Than Droopy
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gdemetz wrote:
He makes a good point that your flavor of scientists accept the Egyptian account, but reject the Hebrew account.


What? Expound please.

(And it would be appreciated if you'd start using the quote feature so that it will be easier to know who you're talking to.)

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Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded.-charity 3/7/07

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I peeked in the back [of the Bible] Frank, the Devil did it.
I avoid church religiously.
This isn't one of my sermons, I expect you to listen.


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:56 pm 
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Check out the article by Dr. Livingston entitled "Creation Vs. Evolution." It's that Dr. Livingston.


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