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 Post subject: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:29 pm 
God
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After recently spending some time reading their articles, I will never steer a questioning member of my Ward to any materials published by FARMS or FAIR. I’m thoroughly convinced that the activities and published materials of FARMS/FAIR are directly related to the erosion in membership growth and, as Elder Jenson recently revealed, the current mass exodus of members.

In the last several weeks, I have also seen first-hand how truly damaging FARMS and FAIR are to struggling members who have sincere questions and doubts.

Most of what FARMS/FAIR writes directly contradicts published statements by past and present LDS Prophets and LDS leaders. They spin a twisted, convoluted, outlandish, complex version of Mormonism (the result of having to explain so many inconsistencies and other troubling evidences away) that it’s completely unrecognizable to the average Mormon.

The arguments of FARMS/FAIR are trivially weak to me, resolving disputes by definition, by simple appeal to authority, or by pure ad hominem attack. Furthermore, the doctrinal positions invoked included a willingness to unconditionally reject all uncanonized statements by Church leaders when advantageous, or accept all uncanonized statements if advantageous for the sake of argument. This inconsistency for the sake of argument is disingenuous and totally insane.

Most important, the manner in which FARMS/FAIR addresses critics is completely inappropriate and unchristlike. In The Book of Mormon, the critics and anti-Christs are never convincingly defeated by argument. Time and again it is the Prophets’ personal revelatory experiences that fortify them as individuals and end up convincing the entire community.

Finally, FARMS/FAIR writers are not “scholars,” they are apologists. They do not use scholarly (scientific) methods, but instead pervert the scientific method by beginning with the conclusion and working backward to the premises, and they scrupulously avoid submitting their work to true peer review by the scientific/scholarly community. To self -label themselves as “scholars” is an act of overt, but misapplied, generosity.

With friends like FARMS/FAIR, the Church doesn’t need any enemies.

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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:58 pm 
Teacher
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I am really curious about your "first hand example". Might it be possible for you to share it with us?

Thanks ...

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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:47 pm 
Hey, Everybody Wang Chung, is the picture in your avatar you and your wife?

You guys are so cute!!!! :biggrin:


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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:59 pm 
B.H. Roberts Chair of Mopologetic Studies
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Well, Everybody Wang Chung, if the recent explosion on Facebook is any indication, there is a Vanguard of up-and-coming apologists who will ultimately change things. I don't foresee the old school Mopologists going quietly into that good night, but change does seem inevitable. Really, the only young Mopologist I can think of who fits in with the Old Guard way of doing things is Maklelan, but he is kind of an odd-man out. Perhaps Rommelator will wind up a jerk, but he is (IIRC) still quite young, and may wind up emulating Bokovoy et al.

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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:04 pm 
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liz3564 wrote:
Hey, Everybody Wang Chung, is the picture in your avatar you and your wife?

You guys are so cute!!!! :biggrin:



Sorry for the confusion, but no, that is not me or my wife. I have recently had a couple of people ask me the same question. I guess it's time to change my avatar.


liz3564 wrote:
Pot, meet kettle. :biggrin:



Amen, sister. Amen.

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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:08 pm 
God
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
Well, Everybody Wang Chung, if the recent explosion on Facebook is any indication, there is a Vanguard of up-and-coming apologists who will ultimately change things. I don't foresee the old school Mopologists going quietly into that good night, but change does seem inevitable. Really, the only young Mopologist I can think of who fits in with the Old Guard way of doing things is Maklelan, but he is kind of an odd-man out. Perhaps Rommelator will wind up a jerk, but he is (IIRC) still quite young, and may wind up emulating Bokovoy et al.



I agree that things will ultimately change with the up-and-coming apologists. I can only hope and dream that in the very near future someone in the Church leadership (maybe Oaks) will mandate that FAIR and FARMS disband and permanently delete all articles and materials.

Until that happens, the Church will continue to hemorrage members at an alarming rate.

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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:45 pm 
God

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Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
I agree that things will ultimately change with the up-and-coming apologists. I can only hope and dream that in the very near future someone in the Church leadership (maybe Oaks) will mandate that FAIR and FARMS disband and permanently delete all articles and materials.


They've got more important things to do... like dedicate lawyer's offices.

Quote:
Until that happens, the Church will continue to hemorrage members at an alarming rate.


This must be happening somewhere besides here.

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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:23 pm 
God

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Funny.... Everything Wang Chung just stated about FAIR and the Maxwell institute is EXACTLY what anti-mormon claims look like.

Don't believe me, just look at his post. Not a single word of substance, nothing but slander, unfair degrading, lies, misrepresentations, etc.

There isn't a SINGLE good and decent person with reasonable intelligence out there who doesn't have a dog with or exposed much to EITHER side, who compares anti-mormonism with LDS scholarship side by side issue by issue who doesn't consider anti-mormonism to be all the crap that Wang Chung just said of LDS scholarship.

Anyone decent can tell the difference between a little "sarcasm" in some LDS articles, and the outright immorality such as displayed on this forum toward mormonism and Mormons.

Anyone decent can take two claims side by side and see how anti-mormonism omits important facts, creating a false narrative.


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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:19 am 
God

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ldsfaqs wrote:
Funny.... Everything Wang Chung just stated about FAIR and the Maxwell institute is EXACTLY what anti-mormon claims look like.


That's the thing about truth and facts. They are consistent regardless of who's stating them....

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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:52 am 
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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:57 am 
God

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Drifting wrote:
ldsfaqs wrote:
Funny.... Everything Wang Chung just stated about FAIR and the Maxwell institute is EXACTLY what anti-mormon claims look like.


That's the thing about truth and facts. They are consistent regardless of who's stating them....


Au contrair, mon ami.....

People can use some facts to lie. See, I've been an anti-mormon. And like Wang Chung, I thought Mormons were idiots, liars, etc. But, I overcame the prejudices and ignorance of youth, and learned more. I now know that it's actually anti-mormons who do all the things he claims of FAIR and Mormons.

See, anti-mormons use facts, and then omit important facts to ultimately lie.
Mormons don't do that. And contrary to anti-mormon claims, telling a "childs" version of Mormonism or it's history is not the same as lying. I know because the childs version is fully verified by the full truth and facts of history. I wouldn't have know that, like you all don't know that, unless I had put away my wicked judgments toward the things of good and light and then ultimately continued to learn.

See, you all suffer from a little problem. You all think you've "learned it all" already, that you know the Church, that you have seen the light. What you've actually done however, is you've stopped your learning, and you simply sit back and judge the Church and it's members according to your negative perceptions of it and us. You've gotten STUCK in a level of learning and understanding that is not the actual truth, and only holds you back.


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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:13 am 
God

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Mormons don't omit facts...

What colour is the grass on your planet?

As recently as Elder Holland denying Romney took a death oath, and Purdy denying the SCMC existed. Both of whom were very publicly caught in their lies.

The latter day Church is littered with Leaders who have told lies. Farms and. Fair just continue in the longstanding Mormon tradition (dating back to Joseph smith) of lying to hide the truth.

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“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:02 am 
God

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ldsfaqs wrote:
Anyone decent can tell the difference between a little "sarcasm" in some LDS articles, and the outright immorality such as displayed on this forum toward mormonism and Mormons.


1. this is not, nor does it claim to be, a scholarly forum.

2. scholars don't allow sarcasm in their official documents. To do so is unprofessional.

3. what immorality is displayed on this forum?

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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:09 am 
God

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Drifting wrote:
As recently as Elder Holland denying Romney took a death oath,


You anti's need to learn the difference between YOUR perversion and misrepresentation and LYING about a persons comments and words, and them actually saying something bad or wrong or themselves lying.

No reasonable person would have expected Elder Holland when asked that question to think back 30 years on what Romney might have done. Further, when he realized that THAT was the intent of the question, he then clarified and answered fully and truthfully.

It was a normal question and answer. Those being questioned don't alway have the MIND of the person asking the question. For example, I likely would have seen the trap, and been clear from the get go. But an Apostle doesn't deal with anti-mormons scum every day, thus anticipating the ill intent of certain questions.

Thus, it is YOU who are the liar, not Holland.

Quote:
and Purdy denying the SCMC existed. Both of whom were very publicly caught in their lies.


I haven't followed this particular anti-mormon attack. But, I'm sure it's another case of anti-mormon lying and misrepresentation.

Quote:
The latter day Church is littered with Leaders who have told lies. Farms and. Fair just continue in the longstanding Mormon tradition (dating back to Joseph smith) of lying to hide the truth.


Only in your perverted anti-mormon mind. The Church is about doing good, being good, and about the truth. Most of us are even Mormons because of these facts.

It is actually the anti-mormon that does the things you claim of Mormonism. You are simply ignorant of it. Your hate blinds you to the evil you do and are.


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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:17 am 
God

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harmony wrote:
ldsfaqs wrote:
Anyone decent can tell the difference between a little "sarcasm" in some LDS articles, and the outright immorality such as displayed on this forum toward mormonism and Mormons.


1. this is not, nor does it claim to be, a scholarly forum.


Never said it was.... I could have added ANY anti-mormon work, place, claim, etc.

Quote:
2. scholars don't allow sarcasm in their official documents. To do so is unprofessional.


When those scholars are responding to the lies and false claims of their enemy's, it's a perfectly normal practice. Rather than them doing what I do, they use sarcasm to show their contempt. Sarcasm by the way which is truthful and accurate. Thus it's not like they are doing anything wrong.

But yes, in other LDS scholarship that does simple scholarship, there isn't the sarcasm. After all, they are doing scholarship, not responding to Church enemy's. So you're half right, but ultimately false in your claim, because you ignore the factor I just mentioned.

Quote:
3. what immorality is displayed on this forum?


I show it all the time, like I just did again above concerning Elder Holland.
You all lie, misrepresent, and unfairly and uncharitably degrade him when there is a perfectly reasonable explanation of why he initially answered the way he did, that has nothing to do with lying or trying to hide the truth.


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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:39 am 
God
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Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
After recently spending some time reading their articles, I will never steer a questioning member of my Ward to any materials published by FARMS or FAIR. I’m thoroughly convinced that the activities and published materials of FARMS/FAIR are directly related to the erosion in membership growth and, as Elder Jenson recently revealed, the current mass exodus of members.

In the last several weeks, I have also seen first-hand how truly damaging FARMS and FAIR are to struggling members who have sincere questions and doubts.

Most of what FARMS/FAIR writes directly contradicts published statements by past and present LDS Prophets and LDS leaders. They spin a twisted, convoluted, outlandish, complex version of Mormonism (the result of having to explain so many inconsistencies and other troubling evidences away) that it’s completely unrecognizable to the average Mormon.

The arguments of FARMS/FAIR are trivially weak to me, resolving disputes by definition, by simple appeal to authority, or by pure ad hominem attack. Furthermore, the doctrinal positions invoked included a willingness to unconditionally reject all uncanonized statements by Church leaders when advantageous, or accept all uncanonized statements if advantageous for the sake of argument. This inconsistency for the sake of argument is disingenuous and totally insane.

Most important, the manner in which FARMS/FAIR addresses critics is completely inappropriate and unchristlike. In The Book of Mormon, the critics and anti-Christs are never convincingly defeated by argument. Time and again it is the Prophets’ personal revelatory experiences that fortify them as individuals and end up convincing the entire community.

Finally, FARMS/FAIR writers are not “scholars,” they are apologists. They do not use scholarly (scientific) methods, but instead pervert the scientific method by beginning with the conclusion and working backward to the premises, and they scrupulously avoid submitting their work to true peer review by the scientific/scholarly community. To self -label themselves as “scholars” is an act of overt, but misapplied, generosity.

With friends like FARMS/FAIR, the Church doesn’t need any enemies.



Well said.


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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:51 am 
God
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Wang Chung wrote:
In The Book of Mormon, the critics and anti-Christs are never convincingly defeated by argument.


Very insightful. Arguments don't defeat the critics because facts, evidence, reason, logic, are all on the critics' side. The faith claims of Mormonism lack supporting evidence and are illogical. Only a supernatural display of divine power can convince someone to eschew reason and embrace dogma. And it's the complete lack of revelation that proves the LDS leaders to be false prophets, that proves Mormonism is a fraud. FAIR and FARMS exist because of the vacuum created by the prophets who do not prophesy. If God were the same yesterday and today, and the Book of Mormon were true, then all us critics would be struck dumb by the Mormon priesthood holders, just as Korihor was. Instead, all we get is bluster from folks like ldsfaqs, whose arguments are the farthest thing from convincing and who also lacks any power to magically silence us the way Alma did back in the day. Mormonism thus fails on both the rational and supernatural fronts.

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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:33 pm 
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Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Finally, FARMS/FAIR writers are not “scholars,” they are apologists.


Religion rises and falls with apologists. They are in every faith. "Scholars" often tend to be atheistic of agnostic. One only has to visit the NT doctoral candidates at Claremont in California to experience this.

Apologists in the LDS church can be teenagers as well as old men, people with no formal education and academics.

But FARMS/FAIR play a crucial role in the advancement of the Church and its retention and missionary efforts, a point to which I can personally test on a number of anecdotal fronts, even if I don't agree with everything they publish.

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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:45 pm 
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Yahoo Bot wrote:
But FARMS/FAIR play a crucial role in the advancement of the Church and its retention and missionary efforts, a point to which I can personally test on a number of anecdotal fronts, even if I don't agree with everything they publish.


FARMS/FAIR plays absolutely no role in the advancement of the church, the missionary efforts, or retention of members, where I live. And I live in one of the most active wards on the planet (98% year after year).

Say "FARMS" around here and you'll start a debate on the weather and prices.

Say "FAIR" and the debate will be around the last high school sports activity.

They are simply nonexistent.

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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:11 pm 
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harmony wrote:

They are simply nonexistent.


In your world, perhaps, but people do google in mine.

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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:27 pm 
God

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Yahoo Bot wrote:
harmony wrote:

They are simply nonexistent.


In your world, perhaps, but people do google in mine.


They google in mine too... just not FARMS or FAIR. If they need guidance, they go to the bishop. If they need doctrine, they go to lds.org. They aren't interested in whatever FARMS or FAIR is selling.

I suspect that the percentage of members in my ward who are full tithe payers is much higher than the average; with a 98% activity rate, no doubt there are few who doubt. We aren't your average 40% ward. None of the rural wards here are.

Perhaps that is why FARMS and FAIR have no influence here: strong stalwart pioneer stock with testimonies that are generations deep.

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