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 Post subject: Re: God and Man at FAIR: The Sunstoneization of Apologetics
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:38 pm 
God
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Droopy wrote:

Yes, they will, just as leftists such as yourself will continue to hold power in various capacities, dominate the institutions of society, and continue to cripple, stunt, debase, and destroy human beings wherever they have influence.


There is not much I can do to respond to a flat lie.

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Why would one want to abolish "creed?"


Why would we want to abolish race? (and how would it be done given that race is a fact.)


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They would indeed, and since I've never denied or argued that racial prejudice plays no role in society

and what should be done about it? Spell it out in positive terms without using the word leftist.



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You're raving

That's rich coming from you.

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Being genetically black and choosing to be a member of a certain religious organization and accept its teachings is about as apples/oranges as one can get, Tarski.

OK, how does something being a choice play into this? Compare with the gay thing and see if you are consistent!! (don't skip this point or I will take it as an admission of inconsistancy).

Also, it is hard to see where you are going with that anyway. You claim leftists don't want a colorblind society. But if race is real, and if being black isn't a choice, and if racial prejudice and injustice are real, then what exactly do you want us to be blind to?

Liberals want equal opportunity for minorities and recognize that centuries old systemic prejudices and biases will not disappear if we take a totally passive approach.

One can hardly be helpful if one pretends to be blind to the distinctions that create disadvantage.
Why do you have a problem with that?

When I judge the worth and potential of a human being, I am blind to race. That is the kind of colorblindness that I can get behind.

Likewise, when I consider the worth and potential of a human being I am not biased by their socio-economic status. But if I were blind to poverty, I couldn't be of much help now could I?

The notion of colorblindness is not well defined without context and sense. You wish to obtain rhetorical leverage by equivocation. Exactly what kind of colorblindness do you promote? The kind that is suddenly blind exactly when someone suggests helping?

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 Post subject: Re: God and Man at FAIR: The Sunstoneization of Apologetics
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:20 am 
God

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I have some questions also. Was Jesus a racist for initially rejecting a Samaritan woman who ask for a blessing by stating that it was not meet to take bread from the children to give to dogs? Was God a racist for favoring Israel and helping them to drive the other inhabitants out of the promised land? Could the prophets then be considered racist for merely following the will of God? I say, the prophets today are no more racist than those were. All the true prophets merely follow the will of God in giving blessings to those worthy as well as curses to those who are worthy of that.


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 Post subject: Re: God and Man at FAIR: The Sunstoneization of Apologetics
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:25 am 
God

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GD! Here is an example of a latter day prophet being no more racist than those prophets of old...

Quote:
The Mormon apostle Mark E. Petersen gave a talk at Brigham Young University in 1954 concerning race relations. Here are select parts of that talk:
“Is there reason then why the type of birth we receive in this life is not a reflection of our WORTHINESS OR LACK OF IT in the pre-existent life?...can we account in any other of way for the birth of some of the children of God in darkest AFRICA, or in flood-ridden CHINA, or among the starving hordes of INDIA, while some of the rest of us are born here in the United States? We cannot escape the conclusion that because of performance in our pre-existence some of us are born as Chinese, some as Japanese, some as Indians, some as Negroes, some as Americans, some as Latter-day Saints. THESE ARE REWARDS AND PUNISHMENTS, fully in harmony with His established policy in dealing with SINNERS AND SAINTS, rewarding all according to their deeds....
Using the Chinese as an example:
“Let us consider the great mercy of God for a moment. A Chinese, born in China with A DARK SKIN, and with all the handicaps of that race seems to have little opportunity. But think of the mercy of God to Chinese people who are willing to accept the gospel. IN SPITE OF WHATEVER THEY MIGHT HAVE DONE IN THE PRE-EXISTENCE TO JUSTIFY BEING BORN OVER THERE AS CHINAMEN, if they now, in this life, accept the gospel and live it the rest of their lives they can have the Priesthood, go to the temple and receive endowments and sealings, and that means they can have exaltation. Isn't the mercy of God marvelous?
Concerning Africans:
“Think of the Negro, CURSED AS TO THE PRIESTHOOD.... This negro, who, in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending him to the earth in the lineage of Cain with a BLACK SKIN, and possibly being born in darkest Africa—if that negro is willing when he hears the gospel to accept it, he may have many of the blessings of the gospel. IN SPITE OF ALL HE DID IN THE PRE-EXISTENT LIFE, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there AS A SERVANT, but he will get celestial glory.”
On civil rights. What people of African decent want:
“The discussion on civil rights, especially over the last 20 years, has drawn some very sharp lines. It has blinded the thinking of some of our own people, I believe. They have allowed their political affiliations to color their thinking to some extent, and then, of course, they have been persuaded by some of the arguments that have been put forth.... We who teach in the Church certainly must have our feet on the ground and not be led astray by the philosophies of men on this subject... “I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the negro is after. He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat. He isn't just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people. It isn't that he just desires to go to the same theater as the white people. From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the negro seeks absorbtion with the white race. He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage.That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feeling to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for negroes that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, 'First we pity, then endure, then embrace.'...
On segregation. A Godly principle:
“Now let's talk SEGREGATION again for a few moments. Was segregation a wrong principle? When the Lord chose the nations to which the spirits were to come, determining that some would be Japanese and some would be Chinese and some Negroes and some Americans, He engaged in an act of SEGREGATION.... When he told Enoch not to preach the gospel to the descendants of Cain who were BLACK, the Lord engaged in SEGREGATION. When He CURSED the descendants of Cain as to the Priesthood, He engaged in SEGREGATION.... “Who placed the Negroes originally in darkest Africa? Was it some man, or was it God? And when He placed them there, He SEGREGATED them....The Lord segregated the people both as to blood and place of residence. At least in the cases of the Lamanites and the Negroes we have the definite word of the Lord Himself that He placed a dark skin upon them as a curse—as a punishment and as a sign to all others. He forbade intermarriage with them under threat of extension of the curse. (2 Nephi 5:21) And He certainly SEGREGATED the descendants of Cain when He cursed the Negro as to the Priesthood, and drew an absolute line. You may even say He dropped an Iron curtain there....
Mr. Petersen would that every person of African decent drive a cadillac:
“Now we are generous with the negro. We are willing that the Negro have the highest kind of education. I would be willing to let every Negro drive a cadillac if they could afford it. I would be willing that they have all the advantages they can get out of life in the world. BUT LET THEM ENJOY THESE THINGS AMONG THEMSELVES, I think the Lord segregated the Negro and who is man to change that segregation? It reminds me of the scripture on marriage, 'what God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.' Only here we have the reverse of the thing— WHAT GOD HATH SEPARATED, LET NOT MAN BRING TOGETHER AGAIN.”

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 Post subject: Re: God and Man at FAIR: The Sunstoneization of Apologetics
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:48 pm 
God

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Yes,that sounds similar to Christ referring to the gentiles as "dogs." Any criticisms of Him? What we need to understand about all this is that God, as well as His prophets, is not a racist, but He does make judgments and punishments accordingly. There was a great judgment before the spirit creation in which God chose Christ's intelligence to be the first born spirit. Likewise, there was a judgment before the "physical" creation in which we were placed in the proper world, born at the proper time, and born to the proper parents, according to our thoughts and actions in the "first estate." Some people may say; "I can't help myself; I was born this way." However, what they don't understand is that even though one may have forgotten the first estate, their thought and behavior patterns have carried over into this life. So, we need to quit whining, face up to our circumstances like a man (or woman), realize that God loves us and wants the best for us, and is always reaching out to us, and act accordingly.


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 Post subject: Re: God and Man at FAIR: The Sunstoneization of Apologetics
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:17 am 
God

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gdemetz wrote:
Yes,that sounds similar to Christ referring to the gentiles as "dogs." Any criticisms of Him? What we need to understand about all this is that God, as well as His prophets, is not a racist, but He does make judgments and punishments accordingly. There was a great judgment before the spirit creation in which God chose Christ's intelligence to be the first born spirit. Likewise, there was a judgment before the "physical" creation in which we were placed in the proper world, born at the proper time, and born to the proper parents, according to our thoughts and actions in the "first estate." Some people may say; "I can't help myself; I was born this way." However, what they don't understand is that even though one may have forgotten the first estate, their thought and behavior patterns have carried over into this life. So, we need to quit whining, face up to our circumstances like a man (or woman), realize that God loves us and wants the best for us, and is always reaching out to us, and act accordingly.


GD, are you saying that you believe being black is a punishment from God and that blacks should quit whining about discrimination?

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“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
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Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: God and Man at FAIR: The Sunstoneization of Apologetics
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:51 pm 
God

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First of all, let me state that as Christians we have no right whatsoever to discriminate against any of our brothers and sisters, whether black, brown, white, or any other race. What I meant was that God is the one who has made judgments as far our placement in this life. For example, the Israelites were blessed because of their obedience in the preexistence. However, many of them will be cursed later because of their disobedience in this life. On the other hand, many of the Samaritans were not so blessed because of their life in the preexistence, but later will be blessed because of righteousness in this life. God is no respecter of persons. He cursed Cain, but it was because Cain was disobedient and killed his brother. The Book of Mormon states that the Lamanites were cursed because of disobedience, but later when they became righteous, they were numbered with the Nephites, and later the Nephites were cursed and completely destroyed because of wickedness. Had the people in the promised land not been so wicked, then God would not have commanded the Israelites to drive them out. God is no respecter of persons, but His judgments not to be taken lightly.


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 Post subject: Re: God and Man at FAIR: The Sunstoneization of Apologetics
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:14 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
What I meant was that God is the one who has made judgments as far our placement in this life.


No, it's just that groups claim God. Each groups God/Gods seems to favor them over others. :surprised:

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 Post subject: Re: God and Man at FAIR: The Sunstoneization of Apologetics
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:32 pm 
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Yea, that's true, but when Christ set up His church, then that group would be the right one.


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 Post subject: Re: God and Man at FAIR: The Sunstoneization of Apologetics
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:40 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
Yea, that's true, but when Christ set up His church, then that group would be the right one.


Why would his church be any different then any other?

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 Post subject: Re: God and Man at FAIR: The Sunstoneization of Apologetics
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:00 am 
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Why would Christ's church be different than the others? Because it is the one He set up. It would not make sense for Him to set up many different churches which teach many different doctrines.


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 Post subject: Re: God and Man at FAIR: The Sunstoneization of Apologetics
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:12 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Why would Christ's church be different than the others? Because it is the one He set up. It would not make sense for Him to set up many different churches which teach many different doctrines.


That is not what I mean. Every ones church is there own. We have so little actual evidence of Jesus existing that we cannot know what he really did when alive.

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 Post subject: Re: God and Man at FAIR: The Sunstoneization of Apologetics
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:16 am 
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We know many things He established in His church, and a funny thing is they have been restored again as Peter prophesied.


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 Post subject: Re: God and Man at FAIR: The Sunstoneization of Apologetics
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:21 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
We know many things He established in His church, and a funny thing is they have been restored again as Peter prophesied.


That is your belief, but then many others have different beliefs about it.

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 Post subject: Re: God and Man at FAIR: The Sunstoneization of Apologetics
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:47 am 
God

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gdemetz wrote:
We know many things He established in His church, and a funny thing is they have been restored again as Peter prophesied.


Yes, restored and then, funnily enough removed and renounced...

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“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: God and Man at FAIR: The Sunstoneization of Apologetics
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:08 pm 
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Just exactly how did He remove and renounce?


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 Post subject: Re: God and Man at FAIR: The Sunstoneization of Apologetics
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:14 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
Yea, that's true, but when Christ set up His church, then that group would be the right one.


Christ (do you mean Jesus?) did not set up a church.

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 Post subject: Re: God and Man at FAIR: The Sunstoneization of Apologetics
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:19 pm 
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Of course He did.

"And upon this rock will I build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Jesus Christ


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 Post subject: Re: God and Man at FAIR: The Sunstoneization of Apologetics
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:23 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
Of course He did.
"And upon this rock will I build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Jesus Christ
You do relize the church of God is built upon Christ and those that believe and follow him. It isn't necessarily a Mormon thing, but speaks to all those that follow and obey God.


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 Post subject: Re: God and Man at FAIR: The Sunstoneization of Apologetics
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:25 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
Of course He did.

"And upon this rock will I build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Jesus Christ


Do you know when that was written and by whom? The concept of "church" was not even in existence until long, long after the death of Jesus.

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 Post subject: Re: God and Man at FAIR: The Sunstoneization of Apologetics
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:45 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
Of course He did.

"And upon this rock will I build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Jesus Christ

Quote:
Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas." He, according to Celsus, had a numerous train of wives.
The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing his crucifixion, was evidently based upon polygamy, according to the testimony of the philosophers who rose in that age. A belief in the doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We might almost think they were "Mormons."
…...
If you will pass along in the days of the Apostles, after a while you see them thrust into cauldrons of oil, crucified with their heads downwards, and persecuted in various ways until they became extinct. After a while, you have the beauty, the sublimity of Catholicism. Look at the old mother, seated upon a scarlet coloured beast, boxing the ears of her daughters; and the Church of England in turn boxing the ears of the old mother, assisted by her other numerous offspring, and then mark the bitter contentions and bloody feuds among the children! O, have they not had a sublime time − a beautiful dish of succotash. What a uniform course they have taken!
JD 1:345 − p.346, Jedediah M. Grant, August 7, 1853

So if the gates of hell could not prevail against the church established by Jesus Christ, were the early Utah prophets wrong?

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 Post subject: Re: God and Man at FAIR: The Sunstoneization of Apologetics
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:37 pm 
God

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Yea, Just Me, that was recorded by Matthew, originally written in Aramic, I'm confident, and later translated in the Greek. As far as I am aware, it is a perfectly good translation. I have never heard any respected theologian state otherwise. It never ceases to amaze me here how the anti's not only try to change history, but also the scriptures themselves, in attempts to suit their views.


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