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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:29 pm 
God
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bcspace wrote:
Yes you have. I personally was coming to an Adam Sr Adam Jr explanation when I came across this:

http://eldenwatson.net/7AdamGod.htm

Game, set, match. An Adam God theory is incompatible with other statements of BY and is also incompatible with doctrine extant at the time.


This paper was written by Watson in 1998, 13-years after Bruce R. McConkie was no longer with us and unable to rebut the palpable falsehood contained on the last page:


Quote:
The Eugene England Letter

In October of 1982 a letter was made public which had been written on February 19, 1981 by Bruce R. McConkie in response to some questions which had been asked him by Eugene England. In this response Br. McConkie told Brother England that Brigham Young had apparently taught that Adam [Jr.] was God, but that he was simply wrong. When this letter was printed and distributed by an anti-Mormon group, we went to Br. McConkie and told him that we had been teaching differently than him, and we did not want to be teaching anything that was incorrect. We told Br. McConkie that if we were wrong, we wanted to know, and we would quit teaching it. After considerable discussion Br. McConkie told us to keep teaching what we had been teaching, because it was he that was wrong. He said if he had known of our views, he never would have said what he did in his letter to Eugene England, and we had his permission to tell anyone we wanted that Br. McConkie had said he was wrong in saying that Brigham Young had taught that Adam was God.



Sure.

Like that ever happened.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:36 pm 
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Brigham Young never stated, "Adam, Jr." No matter who misunderstood him, the fact remains that he never taught what many people claimed, and it should be very clear in his August 28, 1952 statement (which the critics use) what he meant! He is even talking about future exalted "Adams" and "Eves"! Read and quote that statement!


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:07 pm 
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LOL Ok, apologists. Let me help you out. Brigham Young did indeed teach a lot of false doctrine (and contradicted HIMSELF). I think that has been pointed out very conclusively in prior posts in this thread. The fact is, Brigham Young was a fallible man and was quite capable of getting it wrong. It is a problem we all suffer from.

The mistake Mormon apologists make is that they don't afford Brigham Young the ability to be mistaken and wrong because (why?) he was a prophet. For some reason, Mormon apologists are under the impression that if someone is a prophet they are perfect (in essence God) and can't be wrong. You do know that critics of Mormonism are going to make you look completely absurd if you assume that don't you?


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:13 pm 
God

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I agree with you, Tobin, that prophets can make mistakes such as Nathan did when he told king David to go ahead and build a temple to the Lord, however, all I have seen here so far are statements being made by people in the church who believed (wrongly) that that was a teaching of Brigham Young, but I have yet to see a quote from Brigham Young that I requested to support their statements that he believed that! I have read all of his discourses and have found only the two I mentioned!


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:20 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
Brigham Young never stated, "Adam, Jr." No matter who misunderstood him,


E.g., every single contemporary member of the LDS Church.

Quote:
the fact remains that he never taught what many people claimed, and it should be very clear in his August 28, 1952 statement (which the critics use) what he meant! He is even talking about future exalted "Adams" and "Eves"! Read and quote that statement!


I agree we should be skeptical about any statements by Brigham Young in 1952.

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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:23 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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Tobin wrote:
LOL Ok, apologists. Let me help you out.


Given their adoration of a bastardized pseudo-Mormonism of their own invention, maybe Mopologists will indeed find your Mormon fanfic to be helpful.

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And the life of the ebony clock went out with that of the last of the gay. And the flames of the tripods expired. And Darkness and Decay and the Red Death held illimitable dominion over all.


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:15 pm 
abstract
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Tobin wrote:
LOL Ok, apologists. Let me help you out. Brigham Young did indeed teach a lot of false doctrine (and contradicted HIMSELF). I think that has been pointed out very conclusively in prior posts in this thread. The fact is, Brigham Young was a fallible man and was quite capable of getting it wrong. It is a problem we all suffer from.

I really hate the "LOL" used to imply the critic's argument is supposedly laughable... really? Brigham Young supposedly spoke with God. Either you believe that, or you do not believe that. It's one or the other and not both, so why is it supposedly "LOL" worthy to claim that because he was wrong in the Adam-God teachings, he really wasn't conversing with God? Where is the line? Did God sometimes speak with Brigham young and fail to point out where he was wrong? Or is it more logical Brigham Young never spoke with God and was a liar?

Tobin wrote:
The mistake Mormon apologists make is that they don't afford Brigham Young the ability to be mistaken and wrong because (why?) he was a prophet.

By what metric are you using to state your argument? God is perfect and does not make mistakes... ok. Either God screwed up or Brigham Young wasn't talking to God... pick one.

Tobin wrote:
For some reason, Mormon apologists are under the impression that if someone is a prophet they are perfect (in essence God) and can't be wrong.

You are correct. God is never wrong... only humans are wrong. "Perfection" is not the correct metric here regarding humans, but it is if you're including God. At what point do you consider Brigham Young and Joseph Smith were lying? Is this even a possibility in your mind, or is the foregone conclusion they are correct and all other possibilities not worth considering?

Tobin wrote:
You do know that critics of Mormonism are going to make you look completely absurd if you assume that don't you?

The one thing I assume is that you are an obedient cult member. You don't even question the truth based on facts, because you do as you're told. Why not wake up? The truth is the truth based on facts... weigh them.

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2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:21 pm 
God

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I have a hypothetical question for you Thews. What would you have thought if you lived in the days of Abraham and heard him say that Sarah was his sister when you knew already that she was his wife? Would you have thought also that he was a liar and a false prophet?


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:25 pm 
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thews wrote:
...
thews,
If you had really received a testimony of the gospel by really speaking with God, it does not matter what any man (prophet or no) says. It only matters what God tells you. There are really basically two types of Mormons in the church today:
1) Mormons that have never seen or spoken with God.
2) Mormons that have seen and spoken with God.
Group 1 is likely as not to eventually be ex-mormons. They really don't have a testimony of God. They never bothered to read and do what the Book of Mormon says to do. They are Mormon because they are pressured to, or "feel" it is right, or for a host of other reasons.
Group 2 are the "real" Mormons. They will never be impressed by anti/ex-mormon arguments. They know there is a God because they've seen and spoken with him. They recognize the flaws in the Church and understand that in time the Lord will correct things. Anything you might point out as character flaws in prophets, apostles, or members of the Church is simply you pointing out they are human beings and get things wrong from time-to-time. That is just life and you stating it over and over again is not impressive.


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:20 pm 
abstract
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gdemetz wrote:
I have a hypothetical question for you Thews. What would you have thought if you lived in the days of Abraham and heard him say that Sarah was his sister when you knew already that she was his wife? Would you have thought also that he was a liar and a false prophet?

Is this some sort of parallel analogy I'm supposed to accept to outweigh all the hogwash you parade here in defense of the false claims by Joseph Smith?

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2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:28 pm 
God

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Of course, you don't have to answer, but I am still waiting for some evidence of Joseph "in the bed" with a married woman.


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:29 pm 
tired, less active investigator
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gdemetz wrote:
What would you have thought if you lived in the days of Abraham ... ?

I would have thought: - Who can fix my broken ankle?

Image

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- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:38 pm 
abstract
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Tobin wrote:
thews wrote:
...
thews,
If you had really received a testimony of the gospel by really speaking with God, it does not matter what any man (prophet or no) says. It only matters what God tells you. There are really basically two types of Mormons in the church today:
1) Mormons that have never seen or spoken with God.

You mean like Brigham Young? If Brigham Young and Adam God theory are wrong, then Brigham young is wrong and did not speak to God. Disagree? Please explain.

Tobin wrote:
2) Mormons that have seen and spoken with God.
Group 1 is likely as not to eventually be ex-mormons. They really don't have a testimony of God. They never bothered to read and do what the Book of Mormon says to do. They are Mormon because they are pressured to, or "feel" it is right, or for a host of other reasons.

Humor me Tobin... I have been shocked by 400VAC and had an out-of-body experience. I know what it's like to see myself dead. Do I believe this actually happened... absolutely... I know this. Do I believe I saw myself dead? ...probably. I am not so lacking in critical thought that I discount the possibility of error. You claim to have conversed with/felt God... do you actually discount that you may have been wrong?

Tobin wrote:
Group 2 are the "real" Mormons. They will never be impressed by anti/ex-mormon arguments.

What does "impressed" have to do with it? Joseph Smith was a bad human. If Joseph Smith lived next to you right now and started eying your 14 year old daughter, you'd threaten to kick his arse. Wake up dude... reality is not fiction.

Tobin wrote:
They know there is a God because they've seen and spoken with him.

BS. You have not spoken to God. God does not speak to humans. This entire argument is whether or not YOU believe Brigham Young spoke to God, and if he did, the Adam-God is the truth. You can't have it both ways. It's either all true, or it's all false.

Tobin wrote:
They recognize the flaws in the Church and understand that in time the Lord will correct things.

Read this sentence and understand your logic. You know there are flaws. The truth is there are flaws because it's false. You can't accept this, so you rationalization what isn't true with the distortion you've accepted to make it true. Wake up Tobin. Joseph Smith was into occult magic and those seer stones is where Mormon Doctrine comes from. Think for yourself... find the truth in facts an weigh them. This is what life is about IMO... the truth, and not what someone else tells me what the truth is.

Tobin wrote:
Anything you might point out as character flaws in prophets, apostles, or members of the Church is simply you pointing out they are human beings and get things wrong from time-to-time. That is just life and you stating it over and over again is not impressive.

You are drunk on Mormon KoolAid Tobin. You can't even seek the truth out being scared for finding it. You can't seek truth in non-Mormon-approved websites because you're not supposed to. Who told you not to seek the truth? You? Did you decide this? Look here Tobin... weigh the facts: http://mormonthink.com/transbomweb.htm

Find one single thing wrong and I'll be glad to explain it to you. If you find comfort in dancing shadows then bask in ignorance of the truth. Are you scared? Seriously... can you be honestly objective?

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2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:56 pm 
God
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thews wrote:
...
I find it is interesting that you took the time to drill into my comments like that since I never implied nor stated any of the things you asked about or stated. I stated there are 2 groups in the church, those that have seen God and those that haven't. You can deal with that reality however you wish. I'm in the group that has seen God and understand that prophets are merely men that may be inspired by God. If God inspires such men, God can let me know that. Otherwise, they are just stating their opinions.


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:46 am 
ludwigm wrote:
gdemetz wrote:
What would you have thought if you lived in the days of Abraham ... ?

I would have thought: - Who can fix my broken ankle?

Image

Ouch, Ludwigm! :surprised:

When did this happen? I hope you are feeling better!


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:56 am 
God

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gdemetz wrote:
I have a hypothetical question for you Thews. What would you have thought if you lived in the days of Abraham and heard him say that Sarah was his sister when you knew already that she was his wife? Would you have thought also that he was a liar and a false prophet?


I will answer this even though it was asked of Thews...

Yes.
And when I heard that God had asked Abraham to murder his son Isaac and that he was going to do as commanded. I would of thought God was a seriously deranged individual and that Abraham was not only a bad Prophet but a spineless poor excuse of a parent.

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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:01 am 
Drifting wrote:
gdemetz wrote:
I have a hypothetical question for you Thews. What would you have thought if you lived in the days of Abraham and heard him say that Sarah was his sister when you knew already that she was his wife? Would you have thought also that he was a liar and a false prophet?


I will answer this even though it was asked of Thews...

Yes.
And when I heard that God had asked Abraham to murder his son Isaac and that he was going to do as commanded. I would of thought God was a seriously deranged individual and that Abraham was not only a bad Prophet but a spineless poor excuse of a parent.

Refresh my memory on the historical reference for Abraham stating that Sarah was his sister. Didn't he do that in order to save both of their lives? Weren't they being chased or something, and that was the only way they could get away? Maybe I am mixing things up. I haven't had enough caffeine yet this morning. LOL :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:03 am 
God

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liz3564 wrote:
Refresh my memory on the historical reference for Abraham stating that Sarah was his sister. Didn't he do that in order to save both of their lives? Weren't they being chased or something, and that was the only way they could get away? Maybe I am mixing things up. I haven't had enough caffeine yet this morning. LOL :lol:


I know this is a question gdemetz should answer but I think it's in the Book of Abraham.

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“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:09 am 
Drifting wrote:
liz3564 wrote:
Refresh my memory on the historical reference for Abraham stating that Sarah was his sister. Didn't he do that in order to save both of their lives? Weren't they being chased or something, and that was the only way they could get away? Maybe I am mixing things up. I haven't had enough caffeine yet this morning. LOL :lol:


I know this is a question gdemetz should answer but I think it's in the Book of Abraham.

Thanks. I'll check it out later. I am signing off the board for a while. I have voice students coming. :biggrin:


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:17 am 
tired, less active investigator
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liz3564 wrote:
:surprised:

When did this happen? I hope you are feeling better!

Two months ago:
viewtopic.php?p=559070#p559070
viewtopic.php?p=559230#p559230

Image

Recently I am learning to walk without limp. It seems to be successful...

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- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:17 pm 
God

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Yes, that is recorded in Abraham 2:22-25, and there is more written about this in Genesis 12: 11-20.


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