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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism 101 Has Always Been At War With Eastasia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:20 am 
tired, less active investigator
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Tobin wrote:
ludwigm wrote:
Do not spread disease germs! (see "The Mantle Is Far, Far Greater Than The Intellect", by Mc Conkie)
Actually, that was by Boyd K. Packer.

All the same. Prophet, seer and revelator.

You can be proud them all.

Most of the members don't know who said what
- or
what was said ( -publicated, -written, -to believe )

_________________
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism 101 Has Always Been At War With Eastasia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:26 am 
beastie wrote:

I predict that, while it may seem a good move at the moment, the mainstreaming of the LDS church will eventually result in a drop in membership as the LDS church looks more and more like any other protestant faith. Kind of like what happened to the RLDS.


I'm not so sure about that. Mormons seem to retain their "core beliefs", regardless of what's put out by newsrooms, or touted in the media. The "sources" they will always, ultimately, look to will be found in the standard works, which originate with Joseph Smith. I honestly don't think they pay much attention to "newsroom announcements", or even Brigham Young's moon and sun speculations. They will always go back to their scriptures, and if necessary revise "human interpretations".


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism 101 Has Always Been At War With Eastasia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:58 am 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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Tobin---

Your Mormon fanfic and unverifiable, self-serving anecdotes are not a rebuttal to objective fact. Maybe the next chance you get to have some face time with God, He can explain why self-referentialism is not a persuasive way to address the outside world.

Ray---

Thanks as always for sharing your devout ambivalence about Mormonism. I am sorry that you continue to feel that there is something illegitimate about determining what a person says by looking at what that person says. I would have thought otherwise, given the UFO gospel's reliance on verifiable fact, as opposed to speculation and testimony-bearing.

However, on this St. Patrick's Day, I would like to follow your lucid and well-reasoned prophecies of doom to those who fail to find virtue in gullibility. My Ray-style St. Patrick's Day warning is this: if you dismiss the possibility that leprechauns are real, then you hate Irish people and you're like the people who are glad that the Potato Famine happened. Karma will catch up to you, and you will die alone.

Everyone else---

Which is more reasonable to believe:

(1) The LDS Church is making substantive doctrinal reforms through anonymous press releases that contradict its official curricula and are directed to a non-Mormon audience;

or

(2) The LDS Church is lying to the public about its teachings in order to appear more like a mainstream Christian church?

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And the life of the ebony clock went out with that of the last of the gay. And the flames of the tripods expired. And Darkness and Decay and the Red Death held illimitable dominion over all.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism 101 Has Always Been At War With Eastasia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:05 am 
God
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So Tobin, do you agree or disagree with this statement from an official LDS press release dated May 4, 2007, and published on the LDS church's official website in its Newsroom, the "Official Resource for . . . . the Public?"

"With divine inspiration, the First Presidency . . . and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles . . . counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications."

_________________
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism 101 Has Always Been At War With Eastasia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:11 am 
Darth J wrote:
Ray---

Thanks as always for sharing your devout ambivalence about Mormonism. I am sorry that you continue to feel that there is something illegitimate about determining what a person says by looking at what that person says. I would have thought otherwise, given the UFO gospel's reliance on verifiable fact, as opposed to speculation and testimony-bearing.

However, on this St. Patrick's Day, I would like to follow your lucid and well-reasoned prophecies of doom to those who fail to find virtue in gullibility. My Ray-style St. Patrick's Day warning is this: if you dismiss the possibility that leprechauns are real, then you hate Irish people and you're like the people who are glad that the Potato Famine happened. Karma will catch up to you, and you will die alone.


I'm fully aware that the following clip may send shivers down your logical spine. I had to post it somewhere, sometime, and this is as good as any:

Joseph Smith and His first Vision of God.

Should you experience nausea, vomiting, or severe abdominal pain on viewing this, you may have an anti-Mormon virus.






(I'm actually quite sure you do, and I don't use this term lightly, or to anyone.)


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism 101 Has Always Been At War With Eastasia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:13 am 
God
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And what would those core beliefs be, Ray?

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"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism 101 Has Always Been At War With Eastasia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:14 am 
RayAgostini wrote:
But this is what I've always observed about you, Darth. You're a real disciple and fan of using quotations by Mormon leaders, and pitting them against one another, and "bingo!" - we should all abandon Mormonism because Darth J has shown us, unequivocally, that they are all "liars and dishonest".


Why make this about Darth J? He has provided us the quotes complete with citations. How else could we examine the claim made by the newsroom? After finding these quotations, should he have kept them to himself out of respect to the LDS church? I'm not asking rhetorically, I just don't understand where you are coming from here.
As for the citations. I eagerly await the apologetic response to this.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism 101 Has Always Been At War With Eastasia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:15 am 
God
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lulu wrote:
So Tobin, do you agree or disagree with this statement from an official LDS press release dated May 4, 2007, and published on the LDS church's official website in its Newsroom, the "Official Resource for . . . . the Public?"
"With divine inspiration, the First Presidency . . . and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles . . . counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications."
If it is with divine inspiration, I'll definitely agree that it is a great way to establish doctrine. But if it is with divine inspiration, then God can let us know that. That's the nice thing about being Mormon, we can always ask God if things are from the Lord or not. I don't have to take their word for it. For example, we don't ask prospective members of the Church to ask the President of the Church whether or not the Book of Mormon is true and go with that. We instead ask them to speak to God about it. It's a very basic principle that some members should learn early on.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism 101 Has Always Been At War With Eastasia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:20 am 
God
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Tobin wrote:
lulu wrote:
So Tobin, do you agree or disagree with this statement from an official LDS press release dated May 4, 2007, and published on the LDS church's official website in its Newsroom, the "Official Resource for . . . . the Public?"
"With divine inspiration, the First Presidency . . . and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles . . . counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications."
If it is with divine inspiration, I'll definitely agree that it is a great way to establish doctrine. But if it is with divine inspiration, then God can let us know that. That's the nice thing about being Mormon, we can always ask God if things are from the Lord or not. I don't have to take their word for it. For example, we don't ask prospective members of the Church to ask the President of the Church whether or not the Book of Mormon is true and go with that. We instead ask them to speak to God about it. It's a very basic principle that some members should learn early on.


So answer your if's. Do you agree or disagree?

_________________
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism 101 Has Always Been At War With Eastasia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:23 am 
God
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RayAgostini wrote:
Darth J wrote:
Ray---

Thanks as always for sharing your devout ambivalence about Mormonism. I am sorry that you continue to feel that there is something illegitimate about determining what a person says by looking at what that person says. I would have thought otherwise, given the UFO gospel's reliance on verifiable fact, as opposed to speculation and testimony-bearing.

However, on this St. Patrick's Day, I would like to follow your lucid and well-reasoned prophecies of doom to those who fail to find virtue in gullibility. My Ray-style St. Patrick's Day warning is this: if you dismiss the possibility that leprechauns are real, then you hate Irish people and you're like the people who are glad that the Potato Famine happened. Karma will catch up to you, and you will die alone.


I'm fully aware that the following clip may send shivers down your logical spine. I had to post it somewhere, sometime, and this is as good as any:

Joseph Smith and His first Vision of God.

Should you experience nausea, vomiting, or severe abdominal pain on viewing this, you may have an anti-Mormon virus.

(I'm actually quite sure you do, and I don't use this term lightly, or to anyone.)


Is the background music an Eternal Truth, or just someone's personal opinion?

_________________
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism 101 Has Always Been At War With Eastasia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:26 am 
Stormy Waters wrote:
Why make this about Darth J? He has provided us the quotes complete with citations. How else could we examine the claim made by the newsroom? After finding these quotations, should he have kept them to himself out of respect to the LDS church? I'm not asking rhetorically, I just don't understand where you are coming from here.
As for the citations. I eagerly await the apologetic response to this.


Darth is like Alma. He delights in persecuting the Church. He doesn't believe in anything "supernatural", and preaches his "gospel of rationalism" here to all the willing dupes who will swallow his dogma hook, line and sinker. The Book of Mormon actually warned us about such people.

Oh, he'll never learn, no doubt about that. To me, he's almost a comical and tragic character who has won the allegiance of some here with his anti-God, and anti-Mormon rants.

He's got you all fooled about his "sincerity".


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism 101 Has Always Been At War With Eastasia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:27 am 
God
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lulu wrote:
So answer your if's. Do you agree or disagree?
Yes, if it is inspired, it is from God. Let's look at one: There was a pre-mortal life.
And no, if it is not inspired, it is not from God. Let's look at one: Blacks can not hold the priesthood.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism 101 Has Always Been At War With Eastasia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:31 am 
God
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Tobin wrote:
lulu wrote:
So answer your if's. Do you agree or disagree?
Yes, if it is inspired, it is from God. Let's look at one: There was a pre-mortal life.
And no, if it is not inspired, it is not from God. Let's look at one: Blacks can not hold the priesthood.


Nooo, Tooobin, you can't give a direct answer to a direct question with an "if."

Which is it?

1. Inspired?
2. Uninspired?

_________________
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism 101 Has Always Been At War With Eastasia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:38 am 
God
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RayAgostini wrote:
Stormy Waters wrote:
Why make this about Darth J? He has provided us the quotes complete with citations. How else could we examine the claim made by the newsroom? After finding these quotations, should he have kept them to himself out of respect to the LDS church? I'm not asking rhetorically, I just don't understand where you are coming from here.
As for the citations. I eagerly await the apologetic response to this.


Darth is like Alma. He delights in persecuting the Church. He doesn't believe in anything "supernatural", and preaches his "gospel of rationalism" here to all the willing dupes who will swallow his dogma hook, line and sinker. The Book of Mormon actually warned us about such people.

Oh, he'll never learn, no doubt about that. To me, he's almost a comical and tragic character who has won the allegiance of some here with his anti-God, and anti-Mormon rants.

He's got you all fooled about his "sincerity".


What am I "fooled" about?

Darth J is exasperated to find that the religious institution to which he devoted much of his life, money and energy until recently is (to put it kindly) all a big mistake or, (to put it less nicely) a huge act of self-deception or (to put it at its worst) a huge fraud.

He has served his time. Now he feels like doing whatever he can to ensure that others don't waste their time the way he now believes he did.

That is all quite clear, and I don't think Darth J has ever attempted to give us any other impression.

(By the way, it is really a point pointless to berate people on this board with references to the Book of Mormon, a work which most readers of your posts and mine are likely to believe is a piece of 19th century pseudepigrapha.)

_________________
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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism 101 Has Always Been At War With Eastasia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:45 am 
God
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lulu wrote:
Nooo, Tooobin, you can't give a direct answer to a direct question with an "if."
Which is it?
1. Inspired?
2. Uninspired?
Oh really? And since when did the reality of this situation devolve into absolutes like that? The leaders of the Mormon Church are mortal, fallible human beings and are NOT God. If you want to know if something is from God, check with God - never take another human being's word for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism 101 Has Always Been At War With Eastasia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:49 am 
God
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Tobin wrote:
lulu wrote:
Nooo, Tooobin, you can't give a direct answer to a direct question with an "if."
Which is it?
1. Inspired?
2. Uninspired?
Oh really? And since when did the reality of this situation devolve into absolutes like that? The leaders of the Mormon Church are mortal, fallible human beings and are NOT God. If you want to know if something is from God, check with God - never take another human being's word for it.


But that still doesn't answer the question, are YOU saying that the "official publication is doctrine" press release is inspired?

_________________
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism 101 Has Always Been At War With Eastasia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:52 am 
God
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RayAgostini wrote:

I'm not so sure about that. Mormons seem to retain their "core beliefs", regardless of what's put out by newsrooms, or touted in the media. The "sources" they will always, ultimately, look to will be found in the standard works, which originate with Joseph Smith. I honestly don't think they pay much attention to "newsroom announcements", or even Brigham Young's moon and sun speculations. They will always go back to their scriptures, and if necessary revise "human interpretations".


As lulu indicated, that all depends on how you define "core beliefs." I always thought eternal progression, ie, progressing to godhood in the highest degree of glory in the CK, was a core belief. But early members thought that the practice of plural marriage was a core belief, too.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism 101 Has Always Been At War With Eastasia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:58 am 
Chap wrote:
What am I "fooled" about?


You've posted here for a long time. In earlier days you seemed more objective, but of late, you've become very negative. I actually once admired your posts, but only God knows where you've gone in recent times. Maybe Darth "inspired you" to take this more negative course? lol.

He's a ring leader for sure. He comes here to build up a following by trying to impress posters about how "smart" he is. He can quote from Mormon publications and show contradictions, so he is God!

In reality, he's the ex-Mormon version of all that we feared in Mormonism - with dogma piled up to the tip of his head. If he stayed in the Church, he'd probably make McConkie look like a liberal.

He'd happily be a part of The New Inquisition.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism 101 Has Always Been At War With Eastasia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:01 am 
God
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lulu wrote:
But that still doesn't answer the question, are YOU saying that the "official publication is doctrine" press release is inspired?
I don't know. I haven't had a chat with God about this topic (there are a number of topics I'd like to talk with God about ahead of this) and as far as I can tell the understanding is still evolving. I know what feels right and what other Mormons have expressed on this topic that have helped shape my views though.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism 101 Has Always Been At War With Eastasia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:10 am 
God
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Tobin wrote:
lulu wrote:
But that still doesn't answer the question, are YOU saying that the "official publication is doctrine" press release is inspired?
I don't know.


If you don't know, you don't know.

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"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism 101 Has Always Been At War With Eastasia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:18 am 
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beastie wrote:
As lulu indicated, that all depends on how you define "core beliefs." I always thought eternal progression, ie, progressing to godhood in the highest degree of glory in the CK, was a core belief. But early members thought that the practice of plural marriage was a core belief, too.


Yes, the definition of core beliefs changes like just about everything else.

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