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 Post subject: Utah Elections and ObamaCare
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:34 pm 
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ObamaCare will be the central issue in the Utah general election this November. Senator Orin Hatch (R) has been airing campaign ads against his opponent ObamaCare for several months. Health care for all is something we Utahans can rally against. It defies our values. As poster Ajax could point out, we don't need it and we don't want to help pay for those that do need it. Droopy might add that it is fascist, Leninist, leftist ploy to drain precious bodily fluids from the American body politic. In short, it goes against what defines Mormonistic Conservatives as a people.

ObamaCare must be stopped!!! Ignore the similarity to that plan in Massachusetts which future President Romney had nothing to do with. That is a smoke screen created by the adversary, much like fossilized dinosaur bones.

Professor Quigley Bott of BYU likened Obama to a young child who was not ready for the Presidency and so created ObamaCare in response to a childish whim. The Hatch election SuperPac took issue with the incompleteness of this analogy, noting that Professor Bott said nothing about the lack of ObamaCare valiance in the pre-existence.

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 Post subject: Re: Utah Elections and ObamaCare
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:43 pm 
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As poster Ajax could point out, we don't need it and we don't want to help pay for those that do need it.




Ajax would say that if you end up needing government help, most of you will not be eligible, regardless of whether you truly need it or not. You are however eligible and to go to prison if you don't pay for other people to get it. Universal healthcare simply cannot be universal. There will always be those who must go without. So let's rephrase this to represent my position better.

"As poster Ajax could point out, we did need it but since we've been declared ineligible, we'd rather not pay for those who the government sees as eligible.

Moshka I generally don't view liberals as ethical people. For me it usually isn't much different than basic theft. I don't believe that about you. I think you're mistaken if you think the government will be there if you truly need help. But I don't think you're a thief. I would suspect you even pay your taxes unlike most of the other high ranking democrats who seem to be experts at getting out of paying them.

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In short, it goes against what defines Mormonistic Conservatives as a people.


You can be Mormon and be a Democrat. Jay Golden Kimball was a Democrat.

Quote:
Ignore the similarity to that plan in Massachusetts which future President Romney had nothing to do with.


Mitt Romney is a politician. He'll play the middle if elected. But we're talking about the status quo. Obama is undoubtedly the most fiscally irrepsonsible president this country has ever seen. Given four more years and no reelection to campaign for, we will be living in the United Socialist States of America. I think there's too much at stake for the country to let that happen, but it very well could.

Sorry for the dealyed response. I've been working my tail off for the corporate man lately. Greed is the corporate game, your side has that right. Watching other people get rich off my life's labor is no paradise, but it's not the USSR either. Watching people who have maneuvered out of work come to me for free care makes my blood boil, especially when I'm at work sick because if the doctor misses work it's an economic slam all the way down the chain. Thankfully my corporate bosses refuse to take medicare or medicaid.

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 Post subject: Re: Utah Elections and ObamaCare
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:29 pm 
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Dear Moksha,

The individual mandate in the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA), also known as 'ObamaCare' is most likely Unconstitutional.


Obama's Health-Care Law Ruled Unconstitutional Over Insurance Requirement:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-1 ... judge.html

Federal Judge Rules in Favor of Virginia's Central Challenge to Health Care Law:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/12 ... -care-law/


Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare mandate:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/ ... J320110812

Health Overhaul Is Dealt Setback:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 80762.html



As for Senator Orin Hatch goes, he is not perfect, but he is a lot better Senator than the two Liberal Democratic Senators of California. Senator Orin Hatch has voted to ban Partial-Birth Abortions, while he then voted for embryonic stem cell research. The two Liberal Democratic Senators of California, Feinstein and Boxer, voted against the ban on Partial-Birth Abortions.

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 Post subject: Re: Utah Elections and ObamaCare
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:28 am 
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Brackite wrote:
Dear Moksha,

The individual mandate in the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA), also known as 'ObamaCare' is most likely Unconstitutional.


You may be right. If the Constitution was concerned about the general welfare of Americans, it would have said so somewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Utah Elections and ObamaCare
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:55 pm 
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Senator Orin Hatch is still running against Obamacare, but he now has chosen one other adversary. Senator Hatch in his newest TV ad says that America is at its crossroads in the war between those who want entitlements and those who are willing to work.

Running against both Obamacare and the poor sounds like Hatch is doing his best to represent Utah values.

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 Post subject: Re: Utah Elections and ObamaCare
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:09 am 
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Mosha wrote:
Running against both Obamacare and the poor sounds like Hatch is doing his best to represent Utah values.

I wondered about that when I heard his new ad. Entitlements? Has Hatch really decided to be against Social Security and Medicare?

Well, good for him! It's about time someone spoke out against those lazy elderly people, just sitting there and collecting a check instead of working. I know my lazy mother could support herself if she just put her mind to it. She ought to get out there with a rake and shovel and do some landscaping work for people. She's only 91, for Jeebus's sake.

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Last edited by krose on Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Utah Elections and ObamaCare
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:38 am 
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Brackite wrote:
The individual mandate in the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA), also known as 'ObamaCare' is most likely Unconstitutional.

I don't see how it is any different from Social Security, which is an individual mandate into which everyone is required to pay. Getting rid of SS would cause a serious grey rebellion.

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 Post subject: Re: Utah Elections and ObamaCare
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:19 am 
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krose wrote:
Well, good for him! It's about time someone spoke out against those lazy elderly people, just sitting there and collecting a check instead of working.


This new campaign against the elderly is a bold move, but understandable. Hatch needs to show he is as conservative as his Tea Party challengers.

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 Post subject: Re: Utah Elections and ObamaCare
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:19 am 
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krose wrote:

I don't see how it is any different from Social Security, which is an individual mandate into which everyone is required to pay. Getting rid of SS would cause a serious grey rebellion.

It requires you, under threat of penalty, to purchase a product from a private entity. Social Security taxes you to pay for a future benefit doled out by the federal government. That's quite different.


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 Post subject: Re: Utah Elections and ObamaCare
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:22 am 
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One of the main issues of the 2008 Democratic primary was rival health care plans with it being taken for granted that either Clinton or Obama would push for their plan to be passed. (Once elected, Obama quickly switched to the Clinton plan he campaigned against - including the mandate - so bad call if you liked Obama for his specific plan.) This is a multi-generational goal of Democrats. To portray it as a moment of childish whim is just incredibly ignorant or the offline equivalent of trolling.


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 Post subject: Re: Utah Elections and ObamaCare
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:25 pm 
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The Following News Article is From the Washington Post:

Quote:
Cost estimate for insurance aid jumps $111B; administration cites technical budget issues

By Associated Press, Published: March 2

WASHINGTON — Cost estimates for a key portion of President Barack Obama’s health care overhaul law have ballooned by $111 billion from last year’s budget, and a senior Republican lawmaker on Friday demanded an explanation.

House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Dave Camp, R-Mich., wants to know by Monday why the estimated cost of helping millions of middle-class Americans buy health insurance has jumped by about 30 percent for an eight-year period, from 2014-2021.

Administration officials say the explanation lies in budget technicalities and that there are no significant changes in the program that would raise concerns.

Cost estimates for new government programs can be wide off the mark. For example, the actual cost of President George W. Bush’s Medicare prescription drug benefit came in lower than estimated, so it wasn’t as big a drag on federal finances as initially forecast.

Cost overruns for the health care overhaul could create new political problems for Obama by undermining the law’s promise to reduce federal deficits.

The revised health care numbers, buried deep in the president’s budget, stumped lawmakers and some administration officials earlier in the week. At a congressional hearing Tuesday, Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius, who is in charge of carrying out the health care law, indicated she was unaware of the changes.

At issue are subsidies that will be provided under the health care law to help middle class people buy private coverage in new state insurance markets that open in 2014.

Last year’s budget estimated the cost of the aid to be $367 billion from 2014-2021. This year’s budget puts it at $478 billion over the same period.

“This staggering increase ... cannot be explained by legislative changes or new economic assumptions, and therefore must reflect substantial changes in underlying assumptions regarding ... costs,” Camp wrote Friday in a letter to Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner.

Republicans say they’re concerned about two possibilities: that the estimated cost of the insurance has gone up, or that the administration has quietly determined that more people will be losing employer coverage as a result of Obama’s overhaul. That means they’d have to purchase coverage in the new government-subsidized markets, called exchanges.

Either of those explanations could have major consequences for taxpayers and the nation’s health care system.

But administration officials say the big increase is no cause for alarm and that the administration is not forecasting an erosion of employer coverage or higher insurance costs.

About two-thirds of the increase is due to effects of newly signed legislation that raises costs for one part of the health care law but still saves the government money overall. The rest is due to technical changes in Treasury assumptions unrelated to the health care law, covering such matters as income distribution in America.

“The estimates do not assume changes in what exchanges look like, the cost of insurance, or the number of Americans who will get their insurance in this new marketplace,” Treasury spokeswoman Sabrina Siddiqui said in a statement Friday.

That explanation has drawn skepticism from Ways and Means Committee Republicans.

They say a big reason for their doubts is that the Congressional Budget Office — the fiscal referee for lawmakers — has different numbers from the Obama administration. The budget office is not forecasting a major impact on the health insurance exchanges from the same newly signed legislation that the administration says accounts for most of the $111 billion increase.

That legislation fixed a glitch in the health care law that would have allowed some middle-class people to get virtually free insurance from Medicaid. As a result, projected Medicaid spending under the health care law will drop significantly. But spending for subsidies in the exchanges will go up.

...



Link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/ ... story.html

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 Post subject: Re: Utah Elections and ObamaCare
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:52 pm 
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The Following News Article is From the The Salt Lake Tribune:

Quote:
Hatch’s grand plan for survival to be put to the test Thursday

Politics » Effort has been most exhaustive, expensive delegate recruitment in state history.

By Robert Gehrke | The Salt Lake Tribune
First Published Mar 14 2012 09:38 pm • Updated 4 hours ago

Millcreek • At Orrin Hatch’s campaign headquarters, a half-dozen volunteers were hunched over phones Wednesday night, putting the finishing touches on what has been the most exhaustive and expensive delegate recruitment effort in Utah political history.

The effort spanned more than a year and entailed contacting more than 100,000 Republicans around the state and identifying thousands of the most die-hard supporters of the die-hard senator and ensuring they turn out to their GOP caucuses Thursday evening.

"No campaign has ever spent this much time and this much resources to accomplish what we have accomplished," said Hatch campaign manager Dave Hansen.

The fate of the 36-year senator, fighting like a pit bull for his political survival, hinges on the success of the effort.

His challengers are betting all the effort will be for naught and that Utah Republicans are ready for a change.

"Orrin Hatch has spent more money to try to influence the delegate process than any candidate in the history of the state, but I don’t think that delegates can be bought and I don’t think the process can be manipulated like that," said Dan Liljenquist, a former state senator challenging Hatch.

Hatch’s opponents haven’t had the millions of dollars to go toe-to-toe with the incumbent senator. So it will take hard work and organizing Utahns ready for a change, Liljenquist said by phone, on his way to his 93rd public meeting.

"There are people all over the state who are ready for change and that’s how you combat it," he said. "We’ve seen a groundswell of support for us, people who are old and young and say 36 years is enough."

The 4,000 delegates chosen at Republican caucuses Thursday evening will gather in April to vote for a GOP Senate nominee. If a candidate gets 60 percent support, he will win the nomination; if not, the top two vote-getters will be on the ballot in the June primary.

In 2010, Republican delegates who were fed-up with Washington and wanting a change ousted Hatch’s colleague, Sen. Bob Bennett, at the Republican convention — the first time in 70 years a sitting Utah senator had lost his party’s nomination.

...



Link: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/5 ... e.html.csp

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 Post subject: Re: Utah Elections and ObamaCare
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:16 pm 
I attended the caucus tonight even though I'm not really republican. Based on my precinct Hatch has nothing to worry about.


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 Post subject: Re: Utah Elections and ObamaCare
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:49 pm 
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On TV it said Hatch supporters turned out in droves. I had ward members kindly asking me if I wanted to go with them to the Republican caucuses. The ward directory makes for good participation at these civic events.

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 Post subject: Re: Utah Elections and ObamaCare
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:36 am 
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Brackite wrote:
The individual mandate in the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA), also known as 'ObamaCare' is most likely Unconstitutional.

I'm still wondering how Brackite can justify this assertion.

He linked to the two lower-court decisions that ruled against the mandate, while ignoring the two that upheld it.

Three appeals courts have taken up the issue. One upheld the mandate and one struck it down, while the third refused to rule (essentially agreeing with the administration that it is a taxation matter that can't be challenged until actually paid).

How one gets "most likely unconstitutional" out of that is beyond me.

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 Post subject: Re: Utah Elections and ObamaCare
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:03 am 
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I have two questions for conservatives about health care plans.

1 - The current reform law is essentially the idea of the conservative Heritage Foundation, and was supported by Republicans in 1993 as their "market-based" alternative to the universal-coverage plan that Hilary Clinton was trying to get passed. So why do they now characterize it as a "government takeover" of health care?

2. Since they now see their own previous ideas as rampant socialism and therefore evil, what is their solution for fixing the obvious crippling problems in the system (increasing number of uninsured, decreasing coverage, rapidly escalating costs, people dropped for making claims, bankruptcies caused by medical bills, ER as primary care, etc.)? I haven't heard any alternatives that do anything for these issues.

Just defeating an opponent's solution to a problem doesn't make the problem magically go away.

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 Post subject: Re: Utah Elections and ObamaCare
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:44 am 
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KROSE, I think a big part of the problem concerning the cost of healthcare is based on consumer demand. We only want the most highly educated people to serve us. The simple fact that we rely on the AMA board to tell us who is qualified to give medical advice and not strictly based on a buyer beware policy automatically makes the healthcare industry less than a free market. We often times aren't willing to decide on the price of healthcare or life, therefore the decision gets made for us and it becomes an overly expensive decision.

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 Post subject: Re: Utah Elections and ObamaCare
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:15 am 
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krose wrote:
I'm still wondering how Brackite can justify this assertion.

He linked to the two lower-court decisions that ruled against the mandate, while ignoring the two that upheld it.

Three appeals courts have taken up the issue. One upheld the mandate and one struck it down, while the third refused to rule (essentially agreeing with the administration that it is a taxation matter that can't be challenged until actually paid).

How one gets "most likely unconstitutional" out of that is beyond me.


I think it - the mandate - is most likely unconstitutional. I base on that on my understanding of the Constitution. Clearly the split decisions indicate that numerous legal experts agree with that position. Is it that you think people can't have opinions on the constitutionality of a law and must defer to the courts? Do you ever think the Supreme Court gets a case wrong?


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 Post subject: Re: Utah Elections and ObamaCare
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:40 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
I think it - the mandate - is most likely unconstitutional. I base on that on my understanding of the Constitution. Clearly the split decisions indicate that numerous legal experts agree with that position. Is it that you think people can't have opinions on the constitutionality of a law and must defer to the courts? Do you ever think the Supreme Court gets a case wrong?

Sure, I think the SCOTUS gets it wrong plenty of times. They have made rulings that I think were clearly unconstitutional (Bush v. Gore, for example).

But when you and Brackite say "most likely unconstitutional," it sounds like a prediction on how it will ultimately be ruled. Otherwise, why not just say you believe the mandate is unconstitutional?

As a description of the current situation, it's definitely inaccurate, because the courts have been evenly split so far.

Obviously you can hold any opinion you would like regarding constitutionality of anything, but I am curious. What part of the Constitution do you think would be violated here?

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 Post subject: Re: Utah Elections and ObamaCare
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:24 pm 
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krose wrote:
I'm still wondering how Brackite can justify this assertion.

He linked to the two lower-court decisions that ruled against the mandate, while ignoring the two that upheld it.

Three appeals courts have taken up the issue. One upheld the mandate and one struck it down, while the third refused to rule (essentially agreeing with the administration that it is a taxation matter that can't be challenged until actually paid).

How one gets "most likely unconstitutional" out of that is beyond me.



krose wrote:
Sure, I think the SCOTUS gets it wrong plenty of times. They have made rulings that I think were clearly unconstitutional (Bush v. Gore, for example).

But when you and Brackite say "most likely unconstitutional," it sounds like a prediction on how it will ultimately be ruled. Otherwise, why not just say you believe the mandate is unconstitutional?

As a description of the current situation, it's definitely inaccurate, because the courts have been evenly split so far.

Obviously you can hold any opinion you would like regarding constitutionality of anything, but I am curious. What part of the Constitution do you think would be violated here?



I believe that the individual mandate in the PPACA, also known as 'ObamaCare' is Unconstitutional From the Tenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

The main difference between 'Romneycare' and 'Obamacare' is that 'Romneycare' was done on a State level while 'Obamacare' was done on a Federal level. The individual mandate in 'Obamacare' on a Federal level is likely Unconstitutional, while the individual mandate in 'Romneycare' is within being Constitutional.

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 Post subject: Re: Utah Elections and ObamaCare
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:02 pm 
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This is the same old problem of forcing people to drink water. Even if they are begging for water, if not for themselves then at least their children, providing it for them is unconstitutional. At least you will find some court willing to declare unconstitutionality, somewhere.

Give us your poor, uncared for, huddled masses and no changies.

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