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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:38 am 
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Franktalk wrote:
Drifting wrote:
:eek:


Come now you know I am not serious. If I was I would not post it.

But what is the problem with a serial killer anyway. It is just natural selection at play is it not? If indeed we have these molecules that we need to propagate into future generations aren't we supposed to eliminate competition? Isn't this a form of the science you believe in? Did you not say:

"When it comes down to a choice science wins everytime."


Isn't it science that says that winning is having your genes go forward and having your neighbors genes stop? So how can this type of behavior be offensive? Are we not just animals?


Survival of the fittest is still the natural driving force, yes.
You see it at play in corporations and business every day - dog eat dog.
You see it at play with populations every day. Take the conflicts in the middle East. Each division of society wants to do better, progress more and have more than other divisions of society. The war in Iraq was not about developing Iraq, it was about protecting the long term interests of ones own population.

You even see this natural competitive element at play in Religion. Each one wants to have more members than their competitor religions, it's a drive to survive.

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Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:08 am 
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Drifting wrote:
Survival of the fittest is still the natural driving force, yes.
You see it at play in corporations and business every day - dog eat dog.
You see it at play with populations every day. Take the conflicts in the middle East. Each division of society wants to do better, progress more and have more than other divisions of society. The war in Iraq was not about developing Iraq, it was about protecting the long term interests of ones own population.

You even see this natural competitive element at play in Religion. Each one wants to have more members than their competitor religions, it's a drive to survive.


Of course you see it this way. You take from man his soul and choice and give it to some idea that all actions of man are from some natural spring of wants and desires that spring from natural selection. You take away the essence of man and replace it with some idea that is the brain child born of naturalist from the 18th century. When you follow that logic back far enough you become a determinist and then each of us are just puppets of some initial conditions of the universe. There is no purpose there is no personal responsibility of man. Just go off and party like crazy and enjoy the short time you have because when you take the dirt nap you cease to exist. This is all from the world and it serves its master. But I see things differently. I see the earth as a place for us to learn good from evil. You take that plan and deny the powers that set the stage. You give the stage the power over everything even our very souls. The Kingdom of God is for those who find themselves and progress in the plan. The Kingdom of God also has a place for those who wish to stay in the creation and wallow in it. We all make our choice. For those who leave the LDS church or any good Christian church they are making a choice for the world. They have weighed what they see as truth and the world looks like what they want. They deny the existence of the Kingdom of God saying all of the ideas of the plan are foolishness.

There are some who change from one church to another because of doctrine. These people never lost faith they just are seeking a church which fits their understanding of doctrine. Of the people who leave the LDS church where do they go?


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:26 am 
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Franktalk wrote:
Drifting wrote:
Survival of the fittest is still the natural driving force, yes.
You see it at play in corporations and business every day - dog eat dog.
You see it at play with populations every day. Take the conflicts in the middle East. Each division of society wants to do better, progress more and have more than other divisions of society. The war in Iraq was not about developing Iraq, it was about protecting the long term interests of ones own population.

You even see this natural competitive element at play in Religion. Each one wants to have more members than their competitor religions, it's a drive to survive.


Of course you see it this way. You take from man his soul and choice and give it to some idea that all actions of man are from some natural spring of wants and desires that spring from natural selection.


Frank, can you name one thing that you have done that wasn't in your own personal best interest? (I'm not having a go at you, it's just I believe that All people always make decisions on what suits them, personally, the best).

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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:54 pm 
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Drifting wrote:
Frank, can you name one thing that you have done that wasn't in your own personal best interest? (I'm not having a go at you, it's just I believe that All people always make decisions on what suits them, personally, the best).


Having a chat with you is not in my personal best interest.


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:43 am 
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Franktalk wrote:
Drifting wrote:
Frank, can you name one thing that you have done that wasn't in your own personal best interest? (I'm not having a go at you, it's just I believe that All people always make decisions on what suits them, personally, the best).


Having a chat with you is not in my personal best interest.


But when you think about that, it is.
Because, up to this point, it has suited you best to continue the dialogue. And when you or I choose to end the conversation, it will be because that choice suits us best at that point in time. It's inescapable that 'man' is inherently a selfish creature.

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Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:45 am 
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Drifting wrote:
But when you think about that, it is.
Because, up to this point, it has suited you best to continue the dialogue. And when you or I choose to end the conversation, it will be because that choice suits us best at that point in time. It's inescapable that 'man' is inherently a selfish creature.


Not at all. This existence is not all about me me me. No matter how much you think it is. The concept that the center of the universe is you is not correct. But it is the natural way to look at the universe if you are of the world. Where you think you are in charge of yourself you really have made only one choice. When you determined to follow the path of the world you set a course but the world gives you few options. What others say about how the world works you accept without any problems. I accept the plan of Salvation so I accept a path without question as well. We only can divert our self in small ways from day to day. We deal with what happens around us but we rarely determine anything. So we are both a product of our world view. In embracing the world you have by default accepted the lowest collection point of the Kingdom of God. In my case I have accepted the Kingdom of God so based on many things I can advance in spiritual matters while in the flesh. I can exist as a duel state. It makes this existence way more interesting and fulfilling. To suppress or deny the spirit is to chop off most of your existence. Your spirit exist whether you believe in it or not. The Kingdom of God exist whether you believe in it or not. Where you may believe that your brain is a product of millions of years of evolution I believe mine was designed for a purpose. Your acceptance of the natural brain is very limiting. You remain stuck inside your own world of physical senses. But what you fail in realizing is that the other reality is much more than this one.


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:54 am 
God

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Franktalk wrote:
Drifting wrote:
But when you think about that, it is.
Because, up to this point, it has suited you best to continue the dialogue. And when you or I choose to end the conversation, it will be because that choice suits us best at that point in time. It's inescapable that 'man' is inherently a selfish creature.


Not at all. This existence is not all about me me me. No matter how much you think it is. The concept that the center of the universe is you is not correct. But it is the natural way to look at the universe if you are of the world. Where you think you are in charge of yourself you really have made only one choice. When you determined to follow the path of the world you set a course but the world gives you few options. What others say about how the world works you accept without any problems. I accept the plan of Salvation so I accept a path without question as well. We only can divert our self in small ways from day to day. We deal with what happens around us but we rarely determine anything. So we are both a product of our world view. In embracing the world you have by default accepted the lowest collection point of the Kingdom of God. In my case I have accepted the Kingdom of God so based on many things I can advance in spiritual matters while in the flesh. I can exist as a duel state. It makes this existence way more interesting and fulfilling. To suppress or deny the spirit is to chop off most of your existence. Your spirit exist whether you believe in it or not. The Kingdom of God exist whether you believe in it or not. Where you may believe that your brain is a product of millions of years of evolution I believe mine was designed for a purpose. Your acceptance of the natural brain is very limiting. You remain stuck inside your own world of physical senses. But what you fail in realizing is that the other reality is much more than this one.


Good morning Frantalk, how are you today? Good I hope.

I understand your desire for there to be a spiritual element to your life and your existence; and I understand that it is important to you. Can you see though, that is your choice? It is what suits you best; your views, opinions, beliefs, morals etc. Nobody is forcing you to do something against your will, therfore it is your will rather than God's that drives your actions, your decisions, your choices. You are following God's path, as you see it, because that suits you personally the best. You are walking in the Spirit because that suits you personally the best.

It is inescapable.

I don't remain stuck in my physical senses. I choose to use my physical senses and believe what they tell me because that is what suits me best.
I don't lose most of my existence because I deny the spirit. In fact, discounting the spirit has led to a far more fulfilling existence for me and the people around me. But that is because that type of existence suits me personally the best.

It is inescapable that human kind makes decisions and choices based on what suits the individual personally the best.

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“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:24 am 
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Drifting wrote:
It's inescapable that 'man' is inherently a selfish creature.


In some ways yes, and in some ways no, at least not individually. How many animals have sacrificed themselves to save others. It is all geared around the survival of the fittest, but then our species needs the group for survival, so we must have many traits that help with that survival. A serial killer would not help the group or the individuals survival, but groups can and do kill, attack or control other groups to make their survival better. Even the bible shows certain groups killing other groups to take land, which is a common one for groups to do to increase their survival chances. In the bible they blame their actions on God, saying he made us do it. :) You can see it with European colonization, even in the native Indians all across the Americas.

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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:11 am 
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Want to say to Drifting & Themis, that I enjoy & generally agree with your current posts! Rational, practical, (common sense)... Unfortunately the OT Bible writings, from the dark ages, still influence those steeped in living by faith in the wrong things. . .
Enough already! Keep your good dialog going guys!
Enjoy today!
Roger
:smile:


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:27 am 
God

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Franktalk wrote:
Roger Morrison wrote:
BACK AGAIN FRANK! WENT FOR A WALK. CLEARED MY MIND, SORT-OF...
Now I am really looking forward to your answers to my questions Please don't use 'scriptures' to justify yourself.
Just a straight answers. . .
Roger


Have a good night. Maybe in time we will chat.



Thanks Frank. Back home to Canada, from sunny FL. . . Won't miss the political harangues :rolleyes:
I do hope in time to hear from you. Trusting life will be good to you & yours...
Warmest regards, Roger


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:34 pm 
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Drifting wrote:
I don't remain stuck in my physical senses. I choose to use my physical senses and believe what they tell me because that is what suits me best.
I don't lose most of my existence because I deny the spirit. In fact, discounting the spirit has led to a far more fulfilling existence for me and the people around me. But that is because that type of existence suits me personally the best.


You can not see the air but you can see the effects of the air acting on other things you can see. So you already believe in the unseen. You trust that a picture from the Hubble telescope actually is showing you some distant object. Your senses can not see distant objects yet you believe. It is no different with me. I see the effects of God all over the place. To me it is obvious that there is a God and I know Him today because I believed. You do not believe because you choose not to see. Your eyes see everything my eyes see yet you do not see.

Isaiah 44:15-19

15Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto.
16He burneth part thereof in the fire; with part thereof he eateth flesh; he roasteth roast, and is satisfied: yea, he warmeth himself, and saith, Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire:
17And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god.
18They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.
19And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge nor understanding to say, I have burned part of it in the fire; yea, also I have baked bread upon the coals thereof; I have roasted flesh, and eaten it: and shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? shall I fall down to the stock of a tree?

Such is the way of the world. Find something in the creation and worship before it.

Image

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:11 pm 
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Franktalk wrote:

You can not see the air but you can see the effects of the air acting on other things you can see. So you already believe in the unseen.


Actually sight is only one of the physical senses you have. You can expereince air with your sense of feel. You can also see air in the form of dust devils, etc.

Quote:
You trust that a picture from the Hubble telescope actually is showing you some distant object. Your senses can not see distant objects yet you believe. It is no different with me.


There is a world of difference. With the picture from the Hubble telescope, you can look at all kinds of things, measurements, physics to confirm something probably does exist. The biggest difference is it is available to everyone to confirm for themselves if they wish to do so.

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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:05 pm 
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Themis wrote:
Actually sight is only one of the physical senses you have. You can expereince air with your sense of feel. You can also see air in the form of dust devils, etc.


I wonder why they call then dust devils since we see the air and not the dust? Or maybe just maybe we can see the dust.


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:14 pm 
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I am confused and maybe one of you people who worship the world can help me out. When Darwin argued that the dust of the earth self organized are we to worship Darwin because he came up with the idea or are we to worship the dust?

/sarc


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:19 pm 
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Franktalk wrote:
I am confused and maybe one of you people who worship the world can help me out. When Darwin argued that the dust of the earth self organized are we to worship Darwin because he came up with the idea or are we to worship the dust?

/sarc


Hi Frank,

I think you are putting words in people's mouths.
I don't worship the world, I appreciate it. I enjoy it and I experience it.
I don't disbelieve God, I just don't understand what God is and I'm okay with that. Trying to understand God just didn't lead me to anything productive. He seems only to exist in the hearts and minds of followers and those followers do no more good in the world around them than the most ardent athests.
God does not impact this world, except through your mind. And your mind dictates what God wants based on what suits you personally best. There is no independence. God hasn't made you do something you didn't already want to do. God hasn't made you think or believe something you didn't already think or believe. So you determine what God is which is why He is different things to different people. In effect, God is made in your image, not the other way round.

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“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:29 pm 
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Franktalk wrote:

I wonder why they call then dust devils since we see the air and not the dust? Or maybe just maybe we can see the dust.


I guess it depends on how you want to define air. If we forget about solid objects that are part of air we can still feel air. WE can hear the movement of air. We don't need to believe air exists based on what other claims, or what we may feel inside.

Quote:
I am confused and maybe one of you people who worship the world can help me out.


I am not aware of any who worship the world. You have a very incorrect and very black and white way of viewing others who may not hold to some of your beliefs.

Quote:
When Darwin argued that the dust of the earth self organized are we to worship Darwin because he came up with the idea or are we to worship the dust?


Although I doubt you actually know what Darwin argued, I am also not aware of any who worship him. You might trying opening your mind once in a while.

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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:24 am 
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Drifting wrote:
In effect, God is made in your image, not the other way round.


You can deny all you want. You can twist a belief of God into some foolish idea. You can sit at the table with all of the others who agree with you. Yes you can wrap yourself in the comfort of your beliefs. And when the time comes and you really need someone I hope and pray they don't believe as you do. I pray they don't think that since you are damaged that the effort to comfort you is a waste of time. After all what is in it for them? I hope they don't deny you health care because you are old and of no value anymore. I hope they don't unplug the machine which keeps you alive and you watch your life slip away. After all we have no worth at all. After we have contributed to society and now become a burden why should we expect society to use its precious resources to sustain you. Your usefulness has come to an end and you will cease to exist in short order anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:35 am 
tired, less active investigator
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Themis wrote:
With the picture from the Hubble telescope, you can look at all kinds of things, measurements, physics to confirm something probably does exist. The biggest difference is it is available to everyone to confirm for themselves if they wish to do so.

...if they wish to do so


"My dear Kepler, I wish that we might laugh at the remarkable stupidity of the common herd. What do you have to say about the principal philosophers of this academy who are filled with the stubbornness of an asp and do not want to look at either the planets, the moon or the telescope, even though I have freely and deliberately offered them the opportunity a thousand times? Truly, just as the asp stops its ears, so do these philosophers shut their eyes to the light of truth."
Galileo Galilei

Image

That stupid common herd is haunting around here.

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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:41 am 
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Drifting,

Imagine that you come across a burning building and there is no way to put out the fire. You hear people call to you from inside the building and you go inside. You find a room with some people inside. In the room you find a baby, a ten year old with a broken leg, a pregnant woman about 25 who can't walk, and an old man about eighty with no legs. You know there is only time to bring one person out of the building before it is engulfed in flames. What do you do?


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:47 am 
CTR B

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Franktalk wrote:
Drifting,

Imagine that you come across a burning building and there is no way to put out the fire. You hear people call to you from inside the building and you go inside. You find a room with some people inside. In the room you find a baby, a ten year old with a broken leg, a pregnant woman about 25 who can't walk, and an old man about eighty with no legs. You know there is only time to bring one person out of the building before it is engulfed in flames. What do you do?


This is not directed at me, but if you do not mind, Frank, may I answer?

The answer is easy. You remain with them all, teaching them about the love of God until the end. The flames provide a perfect example. Nothing that is true will be destroy in them.

These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.

May we all live in love, in self-offering, as our Savior offered himself for us.

Sheryl


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:32 am 
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Franktalk wrote:
Drifting,

Imagine that you come across a burning building and there is no way to put out the fire. You hear people call to you from inside the building and you go inside. You find a room with some people inside. In the room you find a baby, a ten year old with a broken leg, a pregnant woman about 25 who can't walk, and an old man about eighty with no legs. You know there is only time to bring one person out of the building before it is engulfed in flames. What do you do?


Bring the baby out.

You would pray whilst all of them died.

_________________
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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