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 Post subject: Who came first?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:15 pm 
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"As man is God once was, as God is man may become."

My question to you Mormons is simple. If God created all things, then who came first? Man or God? According to this couplet he most likely was a man first. For me it is clear that only God could have come first. But what do you think? I 'd like to see what others think about this.

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 Post subject: Re: Who came first?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:44 am 
contend4faith wrote:
"As man is God once was, as God is man may become."

My question to you Mormons is simple. If God created all things, then who came first? Man or God? According to this couplet he most likely was a man first. For me it is clear that only God could have come first. But what do you think? I 'd like to see what others think about this.


Since Jesus Christ is the God of this world, I think that a logical interpretation for this couplet would be that Christ is the God being referred to. This allows for God the Father to have always existed.


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 Post subject: Re: Who came first?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:34 am 
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I understand Joseph Smith to have taught that neither God nor man came first, but that both have existed from eternity past and will to eternity future.

The basic stuff of which God is composed (sometimes called "intelligence" by Joseph) is the same stuff of which man is composed.

It was not created, nor could it be. There is no creation about it.

Joseph said the word "created" should better be understood as "formed from preexistent matter"; that matter itself cannot be created, even by God; that the Hebrew word "barau" translated "create" in Genesis is the same word as used in "constructing" a ship.

It's pretty cool when you stop to think about it rather than try to force it into some heresy pigeonhole.

All the Best!

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 Post subject: Re: Who came first?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:49 pm 
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consiglieri wrote:

The basic stuff of which God is composed (sometimes called "intelligence" by Joseph) is the same stuff of which man is composed.

It was not created, nor could it be. There is no creation about it.


So this couplet can fit Joseph's logic that God was once a man, but to say God did not create the elements is impossible to accept given what He said in John 1:3 "ALL things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
"ALL" things were created by Him. And even in the Book of Mormon it even agrees that Christ is the very Eternal Father in the flesh. Alma 11:38-39

It seems to suggest that there is an uncaused cause that the elements exist if you can't accept that ALL things were created by Him. It also comes to the natural principle we tend to entertain in our minds by asking "was it the egg or the bird first?" Colossians 2:20
"Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—" And these natural principles, which are a corrupt influence that we tend to gravitate towards in explaining God and His ways." Isaiah 55:8 “ For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD.

Logic is fallible, and really can't prove what is right, but it can prove what is wrong. SInce His ways and thoughts are not like ours, is He lying to us? He was after all a man right? But that would also suggest that He is subject to "OUR WAYS, and OUR THOUGHTS."

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 Post subject: Re: Who came first?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:15 pm 
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Quote:
Since Jesus Christ is the God of this world, I think that a logical interpretation for this couplet would be that Christ is the God being referred to. This allows for God the Father to have always existed.


That would suggest a plurailty of God's then right? Joseph taught about that, and I still think that notion is still taught, but correct me if I'm wrong. The doctrines of the church seem to keep evolving. I guess by that school of thought you can conclude that Jesus is not the 'ONE' God but 'A' God out of many governing different worlds.

Whats has God said about this?
Isaiah 43:10 "...before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."
Isaiah 44:6 "...I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."
Isaiah 44:8 "...ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."

So all those who are God's witness(i.e prophets and apostles) should know that He is the only God, and would reveal only Himself and not any other God. That should put Joseph in a questionable position.

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man - (Romans 1:20-23)

Romans 1 describes man's rejection of the true God and his fabrication of false Gods. One of the fabrications is described as "an image made like corruptible man." This is the God of Joseph Smith.

As the prophet Joseph Smith said, "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret!" (TPJS, p. 345). Thus, the Father became the Father at some time before "the beginning" as humans know it, by experiencing a mortality similar to that experienced on earth. (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol. 2, p. 549,Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith)

Here Mormons have "changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). The Father never became the Father. He has always been the Father. As it is written of our "One God, the Father, of whom are all things" (1 Corinthians 8:6),

Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. (Psalm 90:2)

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 Post subject: Re: Who came first?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:51 pm 
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contend4faith wrote:
Quote:
Since Jesus Christ is the God of this world, I think that a logical interpretation for this couplet would be that Christ is the God being referred to. This allows for God the Father to have always existed.


That would suggest a plurailty of God's then right? Joseph taught about that, and I still think that notion is still taught, but correct me if I'm wrong. The doctrines of the church seem to keep evolving. I guess by that school of thought you can conclude that Jesus is not the 'ONE' God but 'A' God out of many governing different worlds.

Whats has God said about this?
Isaiah 43:10 "...before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."
Isaiah 44:6 "...I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."
Isaiah 44:8 "...ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."


it should be noted that the Hebrew "formed" is a specific reference to idol making not god making. This is further reinforced by the context of this scripture (43:8-13)
See also Revelations 1:17 or 22:13, where Christ also refers to Himself as the "first and the last", this is because it is a reference of "eternity" not as some sort of limited edition as you would infer. These references in no way confirm the singularity of God, in the manner you are proposing, these scriptures are "about" something else.

Quote:
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man - (Romans 1:20-23)

Again, context. These scriptures being addressed to the a specific audience with specific culture.
The Romans' idolatry and superstitions are being called out here, as well as there willingness to degrade themselves. This scripture is about reverence for God and how the Romans have forgotten to give credit where credit is due....your characterization is incorrect.

Quote:
Romans 1 describes man's rejection of the true God and his fabrication of false Gods. One of the fabrications is described as "an image made like corruptible man." This is the God of Joseph Smith.

As the prophet Joseph Smith said, "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret!" (TPJS, p. 345). Thus, the Father became the Father at some time before "the beginning" as humans know it, by experiencing a mortality similar to that experienced on earth. (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol. 2, p. 549,Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith)

Here Mormons have "changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). The Father never became the Father. He has always been the Father. As it is written of our "One God, the Father, of whom are all things" (1 Corinthians 8:6),

Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. (Psalm 90:2)

Wow, i am not sure if you think this "planet" is the source of God or if you think something else....but that might be an important distinction.
let us read in Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...... (emphasis mine)
or Psalms 82:6
I have said, You are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
or John 10:34
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods?
John 17:4-5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was
John 20:17
I ascend unto my Father, and your Father...(emphasis mine) see also Ephesians 3:14-15

How do you explain the translation of bənê hā-ʾĕlōhîm "sons of God" as used in Genesis and Job or in Psalms kōl-ʾĕlōhîm "all ye gods"?
Yet we see this curious "El" give way to Jehovah (see Exodus 6:2-3)...why is that?

Is not a more relevant (and more interesting) argument for "who came first?" one that asks if the Law or God came first?

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 Post subject: Re: Who came first?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:38 pm 
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Who came first, is one of those questions that if asked of a non-believer, the confident answer would be that man came first, then created God(s). Believers who do not shunt aside the issue of the "prime mover and first cause" would say that God came first to create the rest.

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 Post subject: Re: Who came first?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:46 pm 
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contend4faith wrote:
My question to you Mormons is simple. If God created all things, then who came first? Man or God?

Good question.

But why limit the discussion to a narrow, legalistic reading of the Elizabethan-English translation of the Bible? Doesn’t the Koran get a vote? Or the Bhagavad Ghita? Or Dianetics? It doesn’t seem very fair if you exclude everybody’s else’s favorite little book in favor of your own.


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 Post subject: Re: Who came first?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:58 am 
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Man came first and then created gods in an attempt to deal with fear of the night and other unknowns.

Mormons have created a vanity myth that, given eternity, they too can become a god. The ignorance of that desire demonstrates a remarkable unknowing of how much information is needed to be all-knowing. In other words, they don't know how much they don't know. I've never met a Mormon who was anywhere close to being all-knowing about anything, or if they were, they were playing their cards awfully close to their chest.

I cannot envisualize how looooooooooong eternity is, but even given eternity, you've got to admit that some people who think they're in the race aren't even starters.

Let's start with a god whose declaration upon creation of the world, is self-satisfied enough to declare everything as "good", then almost totally erasing the slate a mere 2000 years later, at the time of Noah, because everything was going horribly wrong. Oops!

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 Post subject: Re: Who came first?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:02 pm 
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Quote:
My question to you Mormons is simple. If God created all things, then who came first? Man or God? According to this couplet he most likely was a man first. For me it is clear that only God could have come first. But what do you think? I 'd like to see what others think about this.


I postulate that Man came first. The first Gods pulled themselves up by the bootstraps (ala a Tower of Babel experience) and there were many casualties. Now, after some generations of Gods, the method of Uplift has been perfected and made more efficient. The Gods create, by guided evolution, men in the express image of themselves (possibly to extend to all humanoids).

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 Post subject: Re: Who came first?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:17 am 
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bcspace wrote:
Quote:

I postulate that Man came first. The first Gods pulled themselves up by the bootstraps (ala a Tower of Babel experience) and there were many casualties. Now, after some generations of Gods, the method of Uplift has been perfected and made more efficient. The Gods create, by guided evolution, men in the express image of themselves (possibly to extend to all humanoids).


The "method of Uplift has been perfected"? You means the gods played around with various methods of becoming even more perfect and efficient?

Please define what is meant by gods becoming "more" perfect. Is this like getting to the end of infinity and then stepping one step further, even more infinite? I don't get it.

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 Post subject: Re: Who came first?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:36 pm 
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Quote:
The "method of Uplift has been perfected"? You means the gods played around with various methods of becoming even more perfect and efficient?


And even before they became Gods, yes.

Quote:
Please define what is meant by gods becoming "more" perfect. Is this like getting to the end of infinity and then stepping one step further, even more infinite? I don't get it.


To go from mortal homo sapiens (or humanoid equivalent) to immortal, relatively all powerful and all knowing homo sapiens. Perhaps they first built a Tower of Babel so to speak, which could be a metaphor in this case for all manner of things technological or psychological.

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 Post subject: Re: Who came first?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:07 am 
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bcspace wrote:
Now, after some generations of Gods, the method of Uplift has been perfected and made more efficient. The Gods create, by guided evolution, men in the express image of themselves (possibly to extend to all humanoids).

Is that a reference to the Uplift series by David Brin? If so, interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Who came first?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:00 pm 
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Quote:
Is that a reference to the Uplift series by David Brin? If so, interesting.


I probably use the term because of that series. But it's been a long time since I've read Startide Rising.

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 Post subject: Re: Who came first?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:25 pm 
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I will go ahead and add my "two cents" to this topic since it to me is a very interesting one! I remember two statements that Brigham Young made regarding this topic. The first was that, there never was a time when there were no gods, and the second was that, it would be easier for an ant to count all the grains of sand on all the beaches of the world than it would be for us to discover the first great cause of all things. Needless to say, I have thought about these two statements quite a bit. If we think of time (and more particularly to the cycle of godhood) and compare it to a ring, as Joseph Smith previously stated, it has no beginning and no end. We also know from scriptural accounts that a spirit can go backward or forward in time relatively to us mortals here on earth. We also know that even though that ring at first appearance shows no sign of a beginning, upon closer examination we can see that it obviously did, and needed to have a beginning. Keeping all this in mind, I will state my theory.

At some point on this ring of time, and it is possible that it could have happened at another point or points independently, a great intelligence solicited the aid of many other intelligences to aid him in a great and glorious plan in which ultimate joy, peace, harmony, beauty, and progress could be enjoyed, and with the recruitment of a large number of intelligences which are, as the prophets have taught, in the matter and can control the matter, this great plan of happiness and cycle of godhood began. I guess I could call it my own personal theory of evolution.


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 Post subject: Re: Who came first?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:43 am 
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bcspace wrote:
The first Gods pulled themselves up ...

Image



You know, that same man who is sitting on his cut-into-half tapir (horse) which is drinking from a trough - with the water falling to the ground behind.
Image

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 Post subject: Re: Who came first?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:16 am 
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consiglieri wrote:
I understand Joseph Smith to have taught that neither God nor man came first, but that both have existed from eternity past and will to eternity future.

The basic stuff of which God is composed (sometimes called "intelligence" by Joseph) is the same stuff of which man is composed.

It was not created, nor could it be. There is no creation about it.

Joseph said the word "created" should better be understood as "formed from preexistent matter"; that matter itself cannot be created, even by God; that the Hebrew word "barau" translated "create" in Genesis is the same word as used in "constructing" a ship.

It's pretty cool when you stop to think about it rather than try to force it into some heresy pigeonhole.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri


I always liked Smith's ideas about eternity, even though I couldn't quite grasp the idea of there never being a beginning.

Of course, scientifically we know there WAS a beginning. Before that there was no time at all. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Who came first?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:17 am 
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bcspace wrote:
Quote:
My question to you Mormons is simple. If God created all things, then who came first? Man or God? According to this couplet he most likely was a man first. For me it is clear that only God could have come first. But what do you think? I 'd like to see what others think about this.


I postulate that Man came first. The first Gods pulled themselves up by the bootstraps (ala a Tower of Babel experience) and there were many casualties. Now, after some generations of Gods, the method of Uplift has been perfected and made more efficient. The Gods create, by guided evolution, men in the express image of themselves (possibly to extend to all humanoids).


Funny how God didn't seem to know anything about evolution until Darwin came along.

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Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: Who came first?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:13 am 
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Quote:
Funny how God didn't seem to know anything about evolution until Darwin came along.


Actually, man didn't know about evolution until God guided them out of the Dark Ages and universal Apostasy.

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Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
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Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
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 Post subject: Re: Who came first?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:16 am 
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bcspace wrote:
Quote:
Funny how God didn't seem to know anything about evolution until Darwin came along.


Actually, man didn't know about evolution until God guided them out of the Dark Ages and universal Apostasy.


So god reveled evolution first to his prophet of the restoration, Joseph Smith, right?

Why didn't Jesus know anything about it? Was he too apostate?

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Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: Who came first?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:17 am 
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Quote:
So god reveled evolution first to his prophet of the restoration, Joseph Smith, right?


Wrong. Read it again.

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Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
A lesson on 'Faggotry' for Kevin Graham; a legitimately descriptive and even positive term used by homosexuals themselves.


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