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 Post subject: Mormonism is not "Christianity"
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:31 pm 
Valiant A

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It doesn't really matter to me if Mormons want to say that they are Christians since I don't attach much importance to something as trivial as semantic distinctions, but I do have a problem with trying to latch onto a term in order to make yourself seem like you are something you are not. Traditional "Christianity" is wildly different from Mormonism when it comes to doctrine, and there are more differences than they are similarities. It makes absolutely no sense to try to say that Mormons fit into the "Christian" tradition, since they don't.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:56 pm 
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I haven't seen a good enough argument to persuade me of your conclusion yet. Nor am I convinced that it matters. The reason I don't think it matters is because everyone makes God who they want God to be.

I'm not trying to downplay this topic. I think it is often on the minds of LDS leadership and their PR department in the COB. I also think it is a classic flamewar discussion topic for religious debaters.

A persuasive argument for Mormons being Christian is their belief in Christ having special powers to create the earth and drop sins during his time in the Garden.

A persuasive argument against might be as you alluded to with the scale of traditional Christianity vs. Non traditional and the focus of teachings being outside of the New Testament.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:02 pm 
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zeezrom wrote:
and drop sins during his time in the Garden.



What do you mean?


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:09 pm 
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cafe crema wrote:
zeezrom wrote:
and drop sins during his time in the Garden.



What do you mean?

I was being ambiguous, like usual. Sorry about that. I have realized that I'm not very good at being clear in my rush to post.

I was referring to the atonement. He suffered for all the sins of mankind, making them "drop".

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:08 pm 
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zeezrom wrote:
and drop sins during his time in the Garden.




zeezrom wrote:
I was being ambiguous, like usual. Sorry about that. I have realized that I'm not very good at being clear in my rush to post.

I was referring to the atonement. He suffered for all the sins of mankind, making them "drop".


During his time in the Garden?


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:11 pm 
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Cafe,

Of course during his time in the Garden. Where else?

Respectfully yours,

Zee.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:13 pm 
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zeezrom wrote:
Cafe,

Of course during his time in the Garden. Where else?

Respectfully yours,

Zee.


On the Cross?


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:33 pm 
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Cafe,

I recall hearing that some people believe that way. Is that how the rest of Christianity believes? Wouldn't you have to focus your thoughts in order to redeem mankind? It would be quite a prayer. Do you believe Jesus prayed during his atonement? It seems to me that focusing while hanging on nails would be difficult indeed.

Yours,

Zee

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:19 pm 
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zeezrom wrote:
Cafe,

I recall hearing that some people believe that way. Is that how the rest of Christianity believes? Wouldn't you have to focus your thoughts in order to redeem mankind? It would be quite a prayer. Do you believe Jesus prayed during his atonement? It seems to me that focusing while hanging on nails would be difficult indeed.

Yours,

Zee


As far as I know yes that's what the rest of Christianity believes, and that at Gethesame Jesus prayed if possible to not go through with what was coming but he would do the Fathers will not his own. The response to His prayer was to be strengthened in order to go on.
I also don't think the concept that it was Jesus' thoughts and prayers that atoned for mankind's sin is a generally held belief, I could be wrong about others but I know I wasn't taught that.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:57 pm 
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cafe crema wrote:

As far as I know yes that's what the rest of Christianity believes, and that at Gethsemane Jesus prayed if possible to not go through with what was coming but he would do the Fathers will not his own. The response to His prayer was to be strengthened in order to go on.
I also don't think the concept that it was Jesus' thoughts and prayers that atoned for mankind's sin is a generally held belief, I could be wrong about others but I know I wasn't taught that.


Well, here's a little for ya. Christianity did not make it to the end of the lives of the apostles. It was fully corrupted and filled with gross errors and making itself up as it went along. The Book of Revelation tells the story of how hit and miss it was and John was the last apostle.

So traditional Christianity is WHAT? Fooey!
The LDS traditions are filled with fooey too.

There is no Christianity on earth today. People imagine that following Christ and striving to be more like him is Christianity. NO! Christianity is what we must do to know God. It is not about us. Any religion that tells you that they can show you how to be all you can be with Christ Jesus, is clueless about the gospel.

D&C 19: 18
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

Oh, and in the Garden of Gethsemane Christ drank the bitter cup and "shrank" which is more hard to bear than anything men can endure. Hanging on the nails was nothing compared with it. He bleed from every pore on his arm of atonement. As featured in a sighting upon The Apocalrock #1 in fact.

Now for all you science guys who adore the blasphemy of evolution and fossil records and what not who 'think' they read the story as it really was, consider this.

The prophecy:
Heleman 14: 21
21 Yea, at the time that he shall yield up the ghost there shall be thunderings and lightnings for the space of many hours, and the earth shall shake and tremble; and the rocks which are upon the face of this earth, which are both above the earth and beneath, which ye know at this time are solid, or the more part of it is one solid mass, shall be broken up

The event:
3 Ne. 8: 18
18 And behold, the rocks were rent in twain; they were broken up upon the face of the whole earth, insomuch that they were found in broken fragments, and in seams and in cracks, upon all the face of the land.

So at the time Christ was killed the whole earth shrank as well. This global compression blew out on the Book of Mormon side of the world where the catastrophes were much more severe.

Hmm. I wonder if this compression of the whole earth, that caused solid rocks to crack both above and below the surface might have worked to create the pressures for making oil, and pools of natural gas, even coal. All prepared for the age that was coming, you know, these days right now, where men strive with their mental might to deny God.

You see how God works? It requires the Mother of men (the earth) to react to the atonement of its creator and hunker down and prepare elements that will support billion and billions of souls in relative ease and comforts while they casually dismiss their creator. Which dismissal sets up the next earth event which is the end of the world of abomination. For abomination shall not reign. Not forever.

Such an extreme geophysical event is misread in the natural record by the over wise and conceited in their learned estimation of themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:24 pm 
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Nightlion wrote:
cafe crema wrote:

As far as I know yes that's what the rest of Christianity believes, and that at Gethsemane Jesus prayed if possible to not go through with what was coming but he would do the Fathers will not his own. The response to His prayer was to be strengthened in order to go on.
I also don't think the concept that it was Jesus' thoughts and prayers that atoned for mankind's sin is a generally held belief, I could be wrong about others but I know I wasn't taught that.


Well, here's a little for ya. Christianity did not make it to the end of the lives of the apostles. It was fully corrupted and filled with gross errors and making itself up as it went along. The Book of Revelation tells the story of how hit and miss it was and John was the last apostle.

So traditional Christianity is WHAT? Fooey!
The LDS traditions are filled with fooey too.

There is no Christianity on earth today. People imagine that following Christ and striving to be more like him is Christianity. NO! Christianity is what we must do to know God. It is not about us. Any religion that tells you that they can show you how to be all you can be with Christ Jesus, is clueless about the gospel.

D&C 19: 18
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

Oh, and in the Garden of Gethsemane Christ drank the bitter cup and "shrank" which is more hard to bear than anything men can endure. Hanging on the nails was nothing compared with it. He bleed from every pore on his arm of atonement. As featured in a sighting upon The Apocalrock #1 in fact.

Now for all you science guys who adore the blasphemy of evolution and fossil records and what not who 'think' they read the story as it really was, consider this.

The prophecy:
Heleman 14: 21
21 Yea, at the time that he shall yield up the ghost there shall be thunderings and lightnings for the space of many hours, and the earth shall shake and tremble; and the rocks which are upon the face of this earth, which are both above the earth and beneath, which ye know at this time are solid, or the more part of it is one solid mass, shall be broken up

The event:
3 Ne. 8: 18
18 And behold, the rocks were rent in twain; they were broken up upon the face of the whole earth, insomuch that they were found in broken fragments, and in seams and in cracks, upon all the face of the land.

So at the time Christ was killed the whole earth shrank as well. This global compression blew out on the Book of Mormon side of the world where the catastrophes were much more severe.

Hmm. I wonder if this compression of the whole earth, that caused solid rocks to crack both above and below the surface might have worked to create the pressures for making oil, and pools of natural gas, even coal. All prepared for the age that was coming, you know, these days right now, where men strive with their mental might to deny God.

You see how God works? It requires the Mother of men (the earth) to react to the atonement of its creator and hunker down and prepare elements that will support billion and billions of souls in relative ease and comforts while they casually dismiss their creator. Which dismissal sets up the next earth event which is the end of the world of abomination. For abomination shall not reign. Not forever.

Such an extreme geophysical event is misread in the natural record by the over wise and conceited in their learned estimation of themselves.

And my small explanation of what I understand the rest of Christianity to believe brought all this down on it because...


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:32 pm 
malaise wrote:
I do have a problem with trying to latch onto a term in order to make yourself seem like you are something you are not. Traditional "Christianity" [snip]


CFR that any LDS has ever claimed that we are "traditional" Christians.

We make no such claim.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:37 pm 
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Cafe,

Thanks! Sounds like LDS has a different take on how it all went down.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:49 pm 
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Does Christianity = Catholicism? Greek Orthodoxy? What about Pentecostalism? What ancient tradition do the Churches of Christ or Assemblies of God fit into? Were Paul's first converts really Christians, since they didn't fit into an established Christian tradition?

The talking points on this issue can (and maybe will) go on forever.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:07 pm 
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zeezrom wrote:
Cafe,

Of course during his time in the Garden. Where else?

Respectfully yours,

Zee.


On the cross, zee.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:08 pm 
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cafe crema wrote:
And my small explanation of what I understand the rest of Christianity to believe brought all this down on it because...

Just 'cause. Sort of an evolution.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:23 pm 
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I think the entire claim that Mormonism is not part of Christianity is best broken down to its components level with this statement from Darth J:

Darth J wrote:
"Harry Potter Fans Declare Gandalf Non-Wizard"


Apparently the check list for Wizardry allows for little variation and much exclusion.

.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:01 am 
God
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Quote:
Does Christianity = Catholicism?
Yes.
Quote:
Greek Orthodoxy?
Yes
Quote:
What about Pentecostalism?
Yes.
Quote:
What ancient tradition do the Churches of Christ or Assemblies of God fit into?
Don't know. Are they supposed to?
Quote:
Were Paul's first converts really Christians,
How would one know this?
Quote:
since they didn't fit into an established Christian tradition?
We're not talking about ancient Christian traditions. We're talking about unique Christian that teaches... well...Christianity. Mormonism doesn't do this.
Quote:
The talking points on this issue can (and maybe will) go on forever.
Maybe so, but it's a rather recent phenomenon, since it wasn't too long ago that LDS authority would have shrunk back in horror at the thought of being lumped in with the above.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:17 am 
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Hoops, my point is that it is impossible to create a definition of "Christianity" that includes Catholics, Orthodox, Evangelicals, Pentecostals, Baptists, Ethiopic Christians, Medieval Catholics, 4th century Catholics, Paul's first converts, Paul, and the Twelve Apostles themselves, but at the same time excludes Mormons.

The "Christianity" that we are being excluded from did not exist until a few hundred years ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:26 am 
God
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Joseph Antley wrote:
Hoops, my point is that it is impossible to create a definition of "Christianity" that includes Catholics, Orthodox, Evangelicals, Pentecostals, Baptists, Ethiopic Christians, Medieval Catholics, 4th century Catholics, Paul's first converts, Paul, and the Twelve Apostles themselves, but at the same time excludes Mormons.

The "Christianity" that we are being excluded from did not exist until a few hundred years ago.

I see your point now. And it is just as wrong now as ever. Assuming your language, one certainly can "create" a definition that includes everyone you've described. And it has been done. It's called orthodoxy or core Christian doctrine. And it was developed for this precise reason: to distinguish between heracy (I've never known how to spell that) and Christianity. The only place one could not include them all is in the efficacy of scripture, since we didn't have it during the lives of the apostles. After that, one certainly can.

Secondly, does it have to? Why does Christian orthodoxy have to explode on the scene in a historical second? Of course it doesn't, it developed over time and, we believe, with the guidance of The Holy Spirit. Of course, you may claim that maybe Mormonism will one day be considered Christian from the Holy Spirit's prompting, and I suppose it could (though I cannot see how), but that day is not today.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:28 am 
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Hoops wrote:
The talking points on this issue can (and maybe will) go on forever.
Maybe so, but it's a rather recent phenomenon, since it wasn't too long ago that LDS authority would have shrunk back in horror at the thought of being lumped in with the above.[/quote]

It's not a matter of us wanting to be lumped in with anyone. It's a matter of us wanting to be recognized as people attempting to follow Jesus Christ according to our consciences, just like everyone else who claims to be a Christian.

For me, and I think for most Mormons, we don't have the political or PR agenda you ascribe to us.

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