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 Post subject: Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:17 pm 
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MsJack wrote:
If you aren't going to elaborate on your bizarre desire to mention your "policy" of not interacting with me every time you break said "policy," then I feel I'll have little choice but to link to some kind of explanation for your "policy" every time you bring it up.

While I, by contrast, will link to nothing and say nothing publicly about it.

But anybody who ever happens to be curious about it will be entirely free to write to me, at daniel_peterson@BYU.edu.

MsJack wrote:
After all, I'm sure it strikes most uninformed observers as pretty strange that you'll freely interact with the likes of Joey, Joseph and malaise, but you won't interact with a BYU alumna and divinity school student who's well known for being a friendly voice on the interfaith dialogue scene.

I'm sure, as well, that uninformed observers will find it puzzling.

Here's a clue for them, though: I've never met Joey, Joseph, or malaise, so far as I'm aware. They've never visited with me in my office. Moreover, I don't take them seriously, and I don't expect anything from them. Nothing. So I'm not disappointed in them.

MsJack wrote:
I'm free to bring up old history if your behavior necessitates it.

Whereas I, by contrast, will not.

Not publicly, anyway.

Lucky you.

MsJack wrote:
Chap was correct.

Much ado about nothing. I haven't actually argued that he wasn't.

MsJack wrote:
Garbo[, you'll be pleased to know that most of the people who write for and affiliate with FARMS and the Maxwell Institute do treat me with respect. The ones who participate on this forum have been outliers in their discourteous behavior towards me. Kind of strange, but oh well.

I assume that I'm your target, with that remark.

I deny the charge.

But I don't deny having been shocked, very offended, and enormously disappointed.

MsJack wrote:
I have long felt that there is something about message board participation that tends to bring out the worst in people (myself included).

Quite.

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 Post subject: Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:53 pm 
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Daniel Peterson wrote:
Garbo wrote:
I guess we’ll never know how much of his vulgar misogyny came through in his “work,” as you call it.

And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Not-Zion; yea, Not-Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

Garbo wrote:
The only “work” that I’m aware of that he did was his silly little KEP slide show, which was ripped to shreds as soon as it was made public, not just by Mormon critics but also by many of your apologist colleagues.

See above.

What a strange reply!

The strain and stress of defending the indefensible appears to be taking its toll on you.

Look at the bright side, at least you managed to avoid, thanks to MsJack, what would have surely have been the worst PR disaster in the history of FARMS: publishing the nonsensical “work” of someone who is probably the most vulgar and repulsive poster in the history of online Mormon discussions.

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 Post subject: Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:56 pm 
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On the debate as to whether Mitt is Christian or not. There is this, The suffering and death of Jesus Christ is for ALL, and so, all Salvation is in Him and through Him.

In addition, there are important teachings in the New Testament that clearly state BELIEF is important. Mormons have a poor argument if they say defining them out of what is orthodox (right belief) makes them non-Christian when their very foundation is based on a claim that what all of Christianity professes to believe is an "abomination".

To a Catholic such as myself, it comes across as Mormons not wanting anyone to hold any convictions unless those convictions agree with Mormonism. Christians should be relative on this matter? I don't believe so.

While I do see and believe many LDS people seek to follow Jesus Christ, Mormonism itself, is not Christian. It is not even of the same vine. This is the conviction of my Christian Faith.

That isn't to say I believe Mormons are damned, or going to hell, or whatever. That is up to God, who is our Judge, not me.

And all that being said, whether or not Romney is Christian isn't a deciding factor for my vote. Could be his stance on some issues are influenced by his Mormonism, and that stance could or not be cause for where my vote goes. So it is, these sound bites coming out of Fox are useless. Quit talking about his religion and lets talk about where he stands, what would he do, or want to do?

Peace.

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Last edited by madeleine on Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:00 pm 
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zeezrom wrote:
Reading this reminds me how religion is lame. Religion used to help explain difficult questions like why mountains exist and whether I will catch a deer for dinner. Now what is it? An entrance to a social club? The people quoted in the OP sound silly and childish. What a shameful waste of energy.

You might try understanding what religion actually is, and what it is trying to be, before declaring it lame.


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 Post subject: Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:03 pm 
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Daniel Peterson wrote:
While I, by contrast, will link to nothing and say nothing publicly about it.

[SNIP]

Whereas I, by contrast, will not.

Not publicly, anyway.

If only you'd had that attitude last year.

In any case, every time you bring up your "policy," I will respond with the following:

Public Service Announcement: Yes, Daniel Peterson apparently has a "policy" of not responding to me, which he likes to mention whenever he responds to me. If you find yourself wondering why it is that he'll freely interact with the dregs of this forum but only grudgingly interact with me, please be informed that it's a decision he arrived at in the wake of the events covered in this post here. Thanks for caring.

Daniel Peterson wrote:
Here's a clue for them, though: I've never met Joey, Joseph, or malaise, so far as I'm aware. They've never visited with me in my office. Moreover, I don't take them seriously, and I don't expect anything from them. Nothing. So I'm not disappointed in them.

Let them make good sense of you who are able; for my part I can make none.

Daniel Peterson wrote:
I assume that I'm your target, with that remark.

You're one of them for sure.

Daniel Peterson wrote:
I deny the charge.

You've been discourteous in this exchange alone. I gave you a thoughtful and polite response, void of sarcasm, and your reply was a series of terse, snide remarks mostly parroting my own reply in an accusatory tone.

I'd say you disappointed me, but it wouldn't be true. I really don't expect anything from you, let alone courtesy. Not anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:07 pm 
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Hoops wrote:
zeezrom wrote:
Reading this reminds me how religion is lame. Religion used to help explain difficult questions like why mountains exist and whether I will catch a deer for dinner. Now what is it? An entrance to a social club? The people quoted in the OP sound silly and childish. What a shameful waste of energy.

You might try understanding what religion actually is, and what it is trying to be, before declaring it lame.


Religion is not what Christ taught. I don't think Jesus would affiliate with any religion. He'd just spend time helping people - I think there's a lesson there somewhere...

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 Post subject: Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:09 pm 
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Then, once again, Ms. Jack, Goodbye!

(I find your characterization of my posts on this thread exceedingly odd, but I think there's no point in discussing it.)

Garbo wrote:
What a strange reply!

The strain and stress of defending the indefensible appears to be taking its toll on you.

Whatever.

Garbo wrote:
Look at the bright side, at least you managed to avoid, thanks to MsJack, what would have surely have been the worst PR disaster in the history of FARMS: publishing the nonsensical “work”

You haven't demonstrated it to be "nonsensical."

(Or should I say that "You" haven't.)

Garbo wrote:
someone who is probably the most vulgar and repulsive poster in the history of online Mormon discussions.

What a ridiculous exaggeration.

For you to make such a claim on this board, of all places, makes it impossible to take you seriously.

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 Post subject: Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:13 pm 
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Daniel Peterson wrote:
Then, once again, Ms. Jack, Goodbye!

See you tomorrow!

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 Post subject: Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:23 pm 
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madeleine wrote:
their very foundation is based on a claim that what all of Christianity professes to believe is an "abomination".

Mormons certainly don't claim that every belief of non-Mormon Christians is an abomination.

Moreover, since they themselves claim to be Christians, they can hardly deny "what all of Christianity professes." That would be rather like saying that ducks lack every single characteristic of birds: It would be incoherent.

madeleine wrote:
To a Catholic such as myself, it comes across as Mormons not wanting anyone to hold any convictions unless those convictions agree with Mormonism.

If you mean, by that, that Mormons want everybody else to agree with them regarding Mormon claims, I'm sure it's true. Just as serious Catholics would like everybody else to agree with them regarding the claims of Catholicism.

If that's not what you mean, though . . . well, if that's not what you mean I confess I can't really tell what you do mean.

madeleine wrote:
Mormonism itself, is not Christian. It is not even of the same vine. This is the conviction of my Christian Faith.

A conviction that I dispute, and for which I can see not a shred of supporting historical or linguistic evidence.

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 Post subject: Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:24 pm 
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MsJack wrote:
See you tomorrow!

Only if, tomorrow, you post something to which I feel I need to reply.

The threshold is exceptionally high in your case, but not impossible.

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 Post subject: Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:33 pm 
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Daniel Peterson wrote:
Only if, tomorrow, you post something to which I feel I need to reply.

The threshold is exceptionally high in your case, but not impossible.

This may or may not be the case. I wouldn't know.

But I could always roll a sock puppet and then post insanely idiotic, easy-to-refute arguments about Mormonism. That seems to be a surefire way to get your attention.

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 Post subject: Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:36 pm 
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Daniel Peterson, you speak in riddles, but I'll just be clear.

We don't even worship the same God, you and I. A Hindu may worship Ganesh, and hold deep beliefs in this God, but it is not the same God that I worship. Mormons similarly worship a God that is but in a pantheon of gods. Certainly, a different mythology, but nonetheless, how Mormons describe God and how Christians describe God, are very different.

That is where the non-Christian aspect begins, it just branches from there. I wouldn't say Hinduism is Christian, and I don't say Mormonism is Christian. Certainly, people from both faiths exhibit outward signs of "good fruit", which are a result of natural law and the created capacity for God that we all have. These are all good things, no doubt, but Christian, first of all depends on WHO it is we are worshipping. This is not as relative as LDS would like it to be, though, I believe it is good that LDS have a desire to be Christians. God can and does use that desire for His own Good purpose.

Peace.

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 Post subject: Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:46 pm 
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MsJack wrote:
This may or may not be the case. I wouldn't know.

But, since it's my threshold, I would. And I've told you. You can believe me or not, as you choose.

MsJack wrote:
But I could always roll a sock puppet and then post insanely idiotic, easy-to-refute arguments about Mormonism. That seems to be a surefire way to get your attention.

Not wishing to interact with you doesn't mean that I don't notice your posts. That's a separate matter.

Being deceptive about your identity might, it's true, lure me into responding to you. Because it's your identity that, for me, is the salient fact.

I was, simply, shocked and horrified at the way you treated me. In my judgment, it was totally uncalled for, extraordinarily uncivil, and I concluded that the person I knew somewhat while she was at BYU (and had quite liked) was not, or no longer was, who she had seemed to be -- and that I would very much prefer to have as little as possible to do with someone who had insulted me so gratuitously, so very much out of the blue.

I expect incivility, lack of substance, and nastiness from Joey and malaise and their ilk. (I usually don't read things from Joseph.) But I didn't expect incivility and nastiness from you. It was a complete surprise. It stunned me. Quite honestly.

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 Post subject: Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:55 pm 
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madeleine wrote:
Daniel Peterson, you speak in riddles, but I'll just be clear.

There was nothing unclear in my previous response to you.

madeleine wrote:
We don't even worship the same God, you and I.

I hope that's not true.

I worship the God who created the heavens and the earth, covenanted with Abraham, revealed his law through Moses, inspired the psalmist, sent his Son into the world to suffer and die on our behalf, raised Jesus from the dead, wants to be addressed as Father, governs the universe, speaks through the Spirit, and will judge all humankind at the end of days.

If that's not the God you worship . . . well, I'm very surprised.

madeleine wrote:
how Mormons describe God and how Christians describe God, are very different.

Only if Mormons are assumed to be non-Christians. But that is the point at issue, and to assume the point at issue as evidence for determining the issue is fallacious circular reasoning. If Mormons are assumed to be Christians, then it is the case that some Christians (namely, Mormons) describe their God the way that Mormons do, and it cannot be the case that "how Mormons describe God and how Christians describe God, are very different."

madeleine wrote:
I wouldn't say Hinduism is Christian, and I don't say Mormonism is Christian.

I wouldn't say that Hinduism is Christian, either. But that has nothing to do with the question of whether or not Mormonism is Christian.

madeleine wrote:
Christian, first of all depends on WHO it is we are worshipping. This is not as relative as LDS would like it to be, though,

Who wants it to be "relative"?

Not I.

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 Post subject: Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:58 pm 
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The nice thing is that it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. Whether or not I'm a Christian is between me and God. If you have a problem with that, take it up with God.

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 Post subject: Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:04 pm 
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Daniel Peterson wrote:
I worship the God who created the heavens and the earth, covenanted with Abraham, revealed his law through Moses, inspired the psalmist, sent his Son into the world to suffer and die on our behalf, raised Jesus from the dead, wants to be addressed as Father, governs the universe, speaks through the Spirit, and will judge all humankind at the end of days.

If that's not the God you worship . . . well, I'm very surprised.



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 Post subject: Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:13 pm 
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Daniel Peterson wrote:
There was nothing unclear in my previous response to you.


Maybe not to you. Most of your posts are riddles to me, as though you always have an inside joke going....one I'm not privy to.

Quote:

I worship the God who created the heavens and the earth, covenanted with Abraham, revealed his law through Moses, inspired the psalmist, sent his Son into the world to suffer and die on our behalf, raised Jesus from the dead, wants to be addressed as Father, governs the universe, speaks through the Spirit, and will judge all humankind at the end of days.

If that's not the God you worship . . . well, I'm very surprised.


What is the nature of this God you worship? That is the thing with Mormonism, very tricky with definitions, and always trying to align a bit of twist on definition to Christian orthodoxy. I've never understood why.

Quote:
Only if Mormons are assumed to be non-Christians. But that is the point at issue, and to assume the point at issue as evidence for determining the issue is fallacious circular reasoning. If Mormons are assumed to be Christians, then it is the case that some Christians (namely, Mormons) describe their God the way that Mormons do, and it cannot be the case that "how Mormons describe God and how Christians describe God, are very different."


Perhaps that is how it is for a Mormon. For a Christian, One Faith, One Baptism is important. Faith for a Christian is in God, who has a triune nature. Not a three gods among many gods/godessess created from existing material of the same nature as humans, etc, etc. A lot of times I see Mormons viewing the Creeds as some sort of arbitrary and abstract test of faith, which they are not. They describe what Christians believe, the One Faith. This is where the relativism of Mormonism comes in, and the mysterious need to align Mormon belief to Christian orthodoxy.

Quote:
I wouldn't say that Hinduism is Christian, either. But that has nothing to do with the question of whether or not Mormonism is Christian.


Comparative difference in Who is being worshipped....just because Mormons call the God they worship by a Christian name, doesn't make it a Christian religion. Again, Mormons have redefined most Christian words, concepts and phrases to mean something else entirely. Just this statement of yours alone...

"I worship the God who created the heavens and the earth, covenanted with Abraham, revealed his law through Moses, inspired the psalmist, sent his Son into the world to suffer and die on our behalf, raised Jesus from the dead, wants to be addressed as Father, governs the universe, speaks through the Spirit, and will judge all humankind at the end of days."

...is a mine field of definition qualifications. How do you define God, created, revelation, Son, the meaning of the suffering and death of Jesus Christ, Spirit, judge, end of days....all of these are topics that are defined very differently in Mormonism, compared to all of Christianity.

Quote:
Who wants it to be "relative"?

Not I.


*shrug* Then why the constant need by Mormons to have beliefs that are so divergent from Christianity, called Christian?

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 Post subject: Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:20 pm 
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Daniel Peterson wrote:
MsJack wrote:
This may or may not be the case. I wouldn't know.

But, since it's my threshold, I would. And I've told you. You can believe me or not, as you choose.

MsJack wrote:
But I could always roll a sock puppet and then post insanely idiotic, easy-to-refute arguments about Mormonism. That seems to be a surefire way to get your attention.

Not wishing to interact with you doesn't mean that I don't notice your posts. That's a separate matter.

Being deceptive about your identity might, it's true, lure me into responding to you. Because it's your identity that, for me, is the salient fact.

I was, simply, shocked and horrified at the way you treated me. In my judgment, it was totally uncalled for, extraordinarily uncivil, and I concluded that the person I knew somewhat while she was at BYU (and had quite liked) was not, or no longer was, who she had seemed to be -- and that I would very much prefer to have as little as possible to do with someone who had insulted me so gratuitously, so very much out of the blue.

I expect incivility, lack of substance, and nastiness from Joey and malaise and their ilk. (I usually don't read things from Joseph.) But I didn't expect incivility and nastiness from you. It was a complete surprise. It stunned me. Quite honestly.

It is interesting to me that you question MsJack’s motivations and credibility when you are her target, but she was regarded as a fountain of truth when it came to the smear piece she authored and then (as it was reported to me) enlisted the help of Brian Haglid and David Bokvoy to use in order to convince the Maxwell Institute to reject Will Schryver’s work, and then to use MsJack to publicly announce the fact on this message board.

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 Post subject: Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:55 pm 
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madeleine wrote:
Daniel Peterson wrote:
I worship the God who created the heavens and the earth, covenanted with Abraham, revealed his law through Moses, inspired the psalmist, sent his Son into the world to suffer and die on our behalf, raised Jesus from the dead, wants to be addressed as Father, governs the universe, speaks through the Spirit, and will judge all humankind at the end of days.

If that's not the God you worship . . . well, I'm very surprised.

What is the nature of this God you worship?

He is loving, wise, merciful, just, morally unchanging, unfathomably powerful, knowing everything that can be known.

madeleine wrote:
That is the thing with Mormonism, very tricky with definitions,

How is it "tricky" to say that I believe in the God whose history is described in the Bible, and whose attributes are illustrated by the biblical accounts? What on earth is "tricky" about that?

I don't, it's true, believe in the Christianized God of the philosophers -- metaphysically immutable, three consubstantial prosopoi in one ousia, one prosopon of which consists of divinity and humanity in hypostatic union. But I affirm every single biblical affirmation about the being and nature of God. There's nothing "tricky" about that.

madeleine wrote:
and always trying to align a bit of twist on definition to Christian orthodoxy. I've never understood why.

I don't even understand what.

What do you mean by "always trying to align a bit of twist on definition to Christian orthodoxy"? That makes no sense to me.

madeleine wrote:
Perhaps that is how it is for a Mormon. For a Christian, One Faith, One Baptism is important.

That's important for Mormons, too.

madeleine wrote:
Faith for a Christian is in God, who has a triune nature.

I believe in the Trinity, too. Just not the way it has come to be defined since the post-biblical Council of Nicea.

But no Christians prior to the fourth century believed in the Nicene Creed, either, since it didn't exist yet.

madeleine wrote:
A lot of times I see Mormons viewing the Creeds as some sort of arbitrary and abstract test of faith, which they are not. They describe what Christians believe, the One Faith.

They describe what those Christians who accept them believe. There were and are plenty of Christians who reject one or more of the creeds. There were Christians who never signed on to Nicea.

madeleine wrote:
This is where the relativism of Mormonism comes in

I have not the faintest idea what you mean by "relativism," nor why you keep bringing it up.

I'm anything but a relativist.

madeleine wrote:
the mysterious need to align Mormon belief to Christian orthodoxy.

I feel no need, mysterious or otherwise, to be aligned with "Christian orthodoxy." I don't want to be a "mainstream" Christian. There is much in "mainstream" Christianity that I don't believe.

What I do care about, though, is letting people know that my allegiance is to Christ, the only name under heaven whereby we must be saved.

madeleine wrote:
just because Mormons call the God they worship by a Christian name, doesn't make it a Christian religion.

True. But the fact that Mormons regard the Jesus Christ who was born at Bethlehem, the Son of Mary, as the divine Son of God through whom alone salvation is possible, most definitely does make them Christian.

madeleine wrote:
all of these are topics that are defined very differently in Mormonism, compared to all of Christianity.

Only if "all of Christianity" is defined as excluding Mormonism. But then, the fact that Christianity, defined as excluding Mormonism, doesn't include Mormonism can hardly be used as evidence that (whaddya know!) Christianity doesn't include Mormonism. That is the very essence of the logical fallacy known as "circular reasoning."

If, on the other hand, Christianity is assumed to include Mormonism, even potentially, then it cannot be flatly true that "topics . . . are defined very differently in Mormonism, compared to all of Christianity."

To say the latter is the formal/logical equivalent of declaring that Fords have nothing in common with cars, that red has nothing in common with colors, that laptops have nothing in common with computers, that Italians have nothing in common with Europeans, that roses have nothing in common with flowers, that burritos have nothing in common with Mexican food.

madeleine wrote:
Then why the constant need by Mormons to have beliefs that are so divergent from Christianity, called Christian?

Mormons believe that their beliefs are Christian beliefs, and that they ought, therefore, to be called Christian.

Your statement that Mormon beliefs are divergent from Christianity makes sense only on the assumption that Christianity is defined as excluding Mormonism. But then, the fact that Christianity, defined as excluding Mormonism, doesn't include Mormon beliefs cannot validly be used as evidence for the conclusion that Christianity doesn't include Mormonism. To do so would be to commit the logical fallacy known as "circular reasoning."

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 Post subject: Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:01 pm 
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Nomad wrote:
It is interesting to me that you question MsJack’s motivations and credibility

I haven't questioned her motivations and credibility. I've said she was gratuitously uncivil and insulting.

Nomad wrote:
when you are her target, but she was regarded as a fountain of truth

By me? When did I say that?

Nomad wrote:
when it came to the smear piece she authored and then (as it was reported to me) enlisted the help of Brian Haglid and David Bokvoy to use in order to convince the Maxwell Institute to reject Will Schryver’s work, and then to use MsJack to publicly announce the fact on this message board.

I confess that I don't know the backstory to all of this. I've tried to piece it together, but haven't managed yet to do so.

I don't believe that David Bokovoy was involved at all in most of what you describe, and I don't think that you've got Brian Hauglid right, either.

Oh, and, by the way, I tend to agree with those who suspect that you're a Will Schryver sock puppet. I may be wrong, of course, but, if I'm not, I can't quite figure out what you're trying to do here.

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 Post subject: Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:19 pm 
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Daniel Peterson wrote:
I was, simply, shocked and horrified at the way you treated me. In my judgment, it was totally uncalled for, extraordinarily uncivil

I completely believe you. And your judgment is precisely the problem. You really don't get why someone might be rude to you after you had blown off her opinion and sent her a snippy PM that was rude in its own right. You just don't.

In your mind, it is really, truly all my fault. And there's just no convincing you that you share any blame in what went down.

You're right though, Dan. I'm not the same person I was when I was attending Brigham Young University. There are a lot of things I've realized about myself in the six years since I graduated.

I realized that when someone sends me a private message threatening to publish a critique of something I've written on a public message board without naming me, and refuses to even clarify what it is that will be critiqued when I ask, I'm not okay with that. It's not polite, and it's not respectful, and it's not how I expect to be treated by people who consider themselves my friends.

I realized that when people are fond of me when I do things like advising LDS scholars away from debates with mischievous evangelical counter-cult ministers, but don't take me seriously when I express a negative opinion on topics relating to Mormonism, I'm not okay with that. I think that people who truly respect me will maintain that respect for me in both situations.

Most of all though, I realized that I don't need to call you a friend. There were things that I liked about considering you a friend. But your friendship wasn't worth me feeling like I was on pins and needles whenever I saw a PM from you in my inbox. When we had our exchange that night and you said you'd never message me again, I didn't feel sad. I felt like a weight had lifted from my shoulders. No more PMs from Dan Peterson murmuring about how "disappointed" he is with me. It wasn't what I expected, but after it happened, I was taken aback by how much I wasn't saddened by the loss.

I happen to think I'm a likeable person with good insights to add to the Mormonism discussion, and I know that there are plenty of people out there who respect my opinions and will validate them. So I don't need you to be that for me. Not if you can't respect me when I don't agree with you.

So go ahead, Dan. Be disappointed in me. Be outraged at me. Be sad about what happened. Respond to me. Don't respond to me. It's all up to you.

The only thing I've complained about on this thread is you making a big, dramatic sideshow out of the fact that you don't respond to me---as if you're just dying for people to ask you about it so you can take them aside and try to convince them that I'm really a nasty, uncivil person who's beneath the dignity of your replies. I'm sorry you're still bitter about what happened last year, but I've moved on.

Nomad wrote:
It is interesting to me that you question MsJack’s motivations and credibility when you are her target, but she was regarded as a fountain of truth when it came to the [well-written, well-documented] piece she authored

Wrong. My credibility was never a factor in the thread I did on William Schryver. All I did was compile his words and let those do the work. I could have been Tawana Brawley and it wouldn't have made a difference.

Nomad wrote:
and then (as it was reported to me) enlisted the help of Brian Haglid and David Bokvoy to use in order to convince the Maxwell Institute to reject Will Schryver’s work

Lies from a proven liar. I never approached anyone from the Maxwell Institute about William's work. Ever.

Welcome back, Belinda Damon Hammer.

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