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 Post subject: Re: The Last Best Hope for LDS Apologetics and Mormonism?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:53 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
wenglund wrote:
It would certainly take an idiot to think you deserving of praise. i don't.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Your criticisms are praise to my eyes. Keep up the good work.


This unwittingly confirms my point. Nice going!

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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 Post subject: Re: The Last Best Hope for LDS Apologetics and Mormonism?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:57 pm 
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wenglund wrote:
This unwittingly confirms my point. Nice going!

Thanks, -Wade Englund-



Everything confirms your point wade. We get it.

Idiot.

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 Post subject: Re: The Last Best Hope for LDS Apologetics and Mormonism?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:00 pm 
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Kevin Graham wrote:
wenglund wrote:
This unwittingly confirms my point. Nice going!

Thanks, -Wade Englund-



Everything confirms your point wade. We get it.

Idiot.


Yup. Indeed.

If I feel complimented by Wade's criticism, I must be a praise-seeker just as Wade accused. The many circular paths of Wade's fancy reasoning are a marvel to behold.

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 Post subject: Re: The Last Best Hope for LDS Apologetics and Mormonism?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:04 pm 
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Kevin Graham wrote:
Everything confirms your point wade. We get it.

Idiot.


A predictably insipid reaction that serves to only disprove that you "get it," thereby revealing your use of the word "idiot" as a false projection--not that you can be expected to get this either.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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 Post subject: Re: The Last Best Hope for LDS Apologetics and Mormonism?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:05 pm 
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wenglund wrote:
A predictably insipid reaction that serves to only disprove that you "get it," thereby revealing your use of the word "idiot" as a false projection--not that you can be expected to get this either.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-



I'm still waiting for you to explain what was wrong with my comments about Nibley, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: The Last Best Hope for LDS Apologetics and Mormonism?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:06 pm 
Will Schryver wrote:
lizzie:
Quote:
You claim that David misunderstood your comment. If it did not mean that you have personal connections with unnamed others who could destroy his aspirations, as he suggested, and you did not mean that you were tacitly referring to his possible apostasy, then what DID you mean?

A fair question.

Here’s the relevant passage from my original post:
Quote:
”What you fail to understand is that I am not the only one who is watching. How tragic when aspirations and possibilities draw further and further apart, without us even being aware ... "


Let’s first parse David’s dramatic commentary on what I said:
Quote:
… Will suggests that he has personal connections with unnamed others …

There is, of course, nothing whatsoever in my post that makes reference to “personal connections with unnamed others.” I’m not sure what eisegetical tick led David to that conclusion, but it is not warranted by the text, nor by my intent.

He continues:
Quote:
… who will destroy my personal aspirations …

Again, I’m not sure what eisegetical tick led David to that conclusion, but it is not warranted by the text, nor by my intent.

What I did say is that “I am not the only one who is watching.” And so it is. Many people have followed David’s recent posting history with interest. Among these are people who would very much like to have a trained Old Testament scholar among the ranks of the faithful Latter-day Saints. It is a fascinating and potentially instructive field of study. However, many of those watching, including myself, have found themselves feeling uncomfortable with some of David’s interpretations, as well as the frequently condescending and authoritative fashion in which he has advocated for those interpretations. One of these “watchers” felt that some of David’s statements amounted to, in his words, “getting ahead of the Brethren.” While I don’t necessarily believe that phrase fully encapsulates the nature of my personal discomfort with some of David’s exegetical postures, it will suffice for my purposes in the present context.

For example, David, on several occasions, quite explicitly criticized the modern leadership of the Church of Jesus Christ for failing (in his opinion) to feel the same urgency he does about implementing the Law of Consecration. Doing so immediately caused a warning siren to sound in the minds of many “watchers,” and thereby served to diminish his (David’s) perceived authority and reliability as a faithful expounder of scriptural import. This diminuition of perceived reliability has thus had the effect of increasing the distance between David’s manifest aspirations to be considered a reliable source for faithful scriptural exegesis, and the previous extent of the possibilities he has to fill that role over the course of his life.

Additionally, his increasing propensity to identify with and find common cause with a number of undeniably confirmed apostates (not “members struggling with their faith,” but clear-cut cases of confirmed and active apostasy) has further eroded his credibility among those who hoped to look to him for reliable (and faithful) scriptural exegesis. Again, this diminuition of perceived reliability has thus had the effect of increasing the distance between David’s manifest aspirations to be considered a reliable source for faithful scriptural exegesis, and the previous extent of the possibilities he has to fill that role over the course of his life.

Now, returning again to David’s erroneous exegesis of my statement, one is led to wonder what might have induced him to jump so precipitously to the conclusion he did?

I suspect it is because there are other people—people with whom I have little or no personal connection—who are also assessing David’s future suitability for a position over which they have direct responsibility. I am not privy to such things, but apparently David is, and therefore I can imagine that, if he felt there was potentially something in his public message board communications that would lead such persons to have reactions similar to those I describe above, then it could also have a direct impact on his more immediate aspirations of employment. I cannot speak to that question with any degree of certainty, but David’s reaction seems to bear out the correctness of my suspicions.

Needless to say, my comments were very much general in nature, whereas David’s reaction and concerns were very much specific. I, of course, could not have anticipated his misperception of my meaning, and the relationship of that misperception to a set of circumstances about which I know nothing. All I could do is contradict his interpretation—which contradiction he has summarily rejected, as he has continued to promote—with the zeal of a dedicated martyr—his eisegetical perspective on the matter.

I hope that adequately answers your question, liz. I can't imagine that I will have much, if anything, more to say of the matter.

Thanks for the clarification, Will.

One other question. You mentioned that David had gained an increased propensity for identifying with, and finding common cause with "known apostates". You distinctly identified a difference between "known apostates" and simply people struggling with their faith. Who were you referring to? Published apostates? Or were you referring to his interactions with posters here? (Sorry...that's 3 questions, not one...but they interrelate. LOL)


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 Post subject: Re: The Last Best Hope for LDS Apologetics and Mormonism?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:10 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Kevin Graham wrote:
[
Everything confirms your point wade. We get it.

Idiot.


Yup. Indeed.

If I feel complimented by Wade's criticism, I must be a praise-seeker just as Wade accused. The many circular paths of Wade's fancy reasoning are a marvel to behold.


Oh..good. Now I am being tag-teamed by the likes of these guys:

Image

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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 Post subject: Re: The Last Best Hope for LDS Apologetics and Mormonism?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:13 pm 
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wenglund wrote:
Oh..good. Now I am being tag-teamed by the likes of these guys:

Image

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Two brilliant comedians. Good call.

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 Post subject: Re: The Last Best Hope for LDS Apologetics and Mormonism?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:19 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
I'm still waiting for you to explain what was wrong with my comments about Nibley, etc.


I can't explain that which I didn't say, though I can explain why you mistakenly assumed that is what i said. It is called poor reading comprehension and a propensity to jump to false conclusions.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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 Post subject: Re: The Last Best Hope for LDS Apologetics and Mormonism?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:21 pm 
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wenglund wrote:
I can't explain that which I didn't say, though I can explain why you mistakenly assumed that is what i said. It is called poor reading comprehension and a propensity to jump to false conclusions.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Another lame cop out. Oh well.

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 Post subject: Re: The Last Best Hope for LDS Apologetics and Mormonism?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:29 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Two brilliant comedians. Good call.


Yes...it took brillance to effectively portray non-brilliant characters like you and Graham. I am glad you concure.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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 Post subject: Re: The Last Best Hope for LDS Apologetics and Mormonism?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:52 pm 
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Will Schryver wrote:
Another fifth-columnist apostate evangelist singing the praises of the most popular Mormon in The Great and Spacious Trailer Park. With the understandable exception of the nut case thews, it appears the voting has been unanimous in the affirmative.

You're losing it stawman... you know the game. Your target audience is what fuels your insincere passion. Attempting to argue a platform so riddled with holes anyone with an ounce of common sense can see through takes fangs, and sometimes the venom you spit gets injected into your bottom lip after you accidentally bit it. You know the rules strawman... you can't have friends on the other team if you're the enforcer.

As you cower in Enuma's success in your old stomping grounds you realize your fifteen minutes are up. What are you left with? A handful of asskissing minions to agree with whatever b***s*** you claim is true in here? You don't even have a clue regarding your own cryptic mess of what your supposed Book of Abraham Rosetta stone means. Who is going to buy the book if you can't even put together an explanation that remotely makes sense?

Enjoy the memories of when you were a supposed big deal defending magic rocks and continue to look for a team that needs a dried up enforcer with a pony tail... Wade will always worship your cryptic theories no one (including Wade) understands ... that should make you feel good. Why not take one for the team Will? Why not make Paul O's prophecy come true? You can smoke your Marlboro reds and drink a beer without having to hide from the neighbors... you'll be an instant hero in here if you do... 15 more minutes Will... think about it... I'd buy your book if it told the truth.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: The Last Best Hope for LDS Apologetics and Mormonism?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:46 pm 
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Since Rev. brought up Nibley, now is a good time to point out that Will's fear that David B. will take the helm of Mopologetics in the future is in part due to the rather recent desecration of Nibley's grave by FARMS. Nibley, whose work became the paradigm for early Mopologist, was dogmatically anti-capitalist, but has been thrown to the vultures by recent Mopologist who are slowly creeping towards the Droopy end of the political spectrum. That David B. carries this torch in addition to having the coveted NE studies-relevant Phd clearly makes him a, if not the rightful successor to Nibley. After so many years of staking out their territory, this could ruin everything for the Mopologist priestly class.


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 Post subject: Re: The Last Best Hope for LDS Apologetics and Mormonism?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:37 pm 
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wenglund wrote:
Yes...it took brillance to effectively portray non-brilliant characters like you and Graham. I am glad you concure.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


As usual, in your bid to turn your defeat into a victory, you overreach and place an exclamation mark on your defeat.

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 Post subject: Re: The Last Best Hope for LDS Apologetics and Mormonism?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:47 pm 
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Gadianton wrote:
Since Rev. brought up Nibley, now is a good time to point out that Will's fear that David B. will take the helm of Mopologetics in the future is in part due to the rather recent desecration of Nibley's grave by FARMS.


Well, Will assures us that his tenure as a Mopologist is limited, as he is going to move on to bigger and better things.

Gadianton wrote:
Nibley, whose work became the paradigm for early Mopologist, was dogmatically anti-capitalist, but has been thrown to the vultures by recent Mopologist who are slowly creeping towards the Droopy end of the political spectrum.


Yes, Nibley both understood and sincerely believed Mormonism. It is less certain that certain of his successors possess either faculty.

Gadianton wrote:
That David B. carries this torch in addition to having the coveted NE studies-relevant Phd clearly makes him a, if not the rightful successor to Nibley.


Well, Nibley will not have a true successor. The time for Nibley-like scholarship has passed. Furthermore, Nibley had a connection with the leadership of the LDS Church that was rather unique. If I were to wager, I would say that the real future of Mormon scholarship resides in the person of Marlin Jensen, not the NMI, FARMS, or FAIR.

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 Post subject: Re: The Last Best Hope for LDS Apologetics and Mormonism?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:49 pm 
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Gadianton wrote:
Since Rev. brought up Nibley, now is a good time to point out that Will's fear that David B. will take the helm of Mopologetics in the future is in part due to the rather recent desecration of Nibley's grave by FARMS. Nibley, whose work became the paradigm for early Mopologist, was dogmatically anti-capitalist, but has been thrown to the vultures by recent Mopologist who are slowly creeping towards the Droopy end of the political spectrum. That David B. carries this torch in addition to having the coveted NE studies-relevant Phd clearly makes him a, if not the rightful successor to Nibley. After so many years of staking out their territory, this could ruin everything for the Mopologist priestly class.


I'm reminded in the scene from The Lamb of God where the enemies of Jesus chant "Crucify him! Crucify him!"

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 Post subject: Re: The Last Best Hope for LDS Apologetics and Mormonism?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:50 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
wenglund wrote:
Yes...it took brillance to effectively portray non-brilliant characters like you and Graham. I am glad you concure.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


As usual, in your bid to turn your defeat into a victory, you overreach and place an exclamation mark on your defeat.


Image

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Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: The Last Best Hope for LDS Apologetics and Mormonism?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:00 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Just for the sake of providing at least some evidence of Will Schryver's lovely behavior toward David Bokovoy on this board, I present interested readers with this:

Will Schryver wrote:
I have no desire to be like either Kevin Barney or David Bokovoy. While I continue to hold the former in esteem, as I have previously held the latter, I disagree with both on many questions of a very fundamental nature, and consider them to be (albeit unconsciously and well-intentioned) representative examples of an ultimately destructive element within the Church of Jesus Christ. I predict that both will, before their mortal sojourn ends, have hard decisions thrust upon them that will test the limits of their humility and obedience.


Pwnd

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Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: The Last Best Hope for LDS Apologetics and Mormonism?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:14 pm 
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Will Schryver wrote:
Quote:
it would make the Church way more attractive to critics, neutral observers, and potential converts.


Is this the last best hope for LDS apologetics and the future of Mormonism? If so, why?

Your comments are hereby solicited.


Total honesty in dealing with issues and concerns always brings better understanding and respect. On the other hand, talking around issues and obfuscating the truth are viewed negatively.

David Bokovoy tries his best to deal with issues honestly. So, that is why I suspect Dr. Scratch heaped praise on him. As far as being unsettling to the majority of the Church, I think it would be more of a pleasant surprise. Sort of a like a cool spring breeze on a hot muggy day.

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 Post subject: Re: The Last Best Hope for LDS Apologetics and Mormonism?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:52 am 
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The funniest thing about this thread is witnessing Will and Wade utterly lacking the mental capacity to see how embarrassed they should be by their comments. They're like a couple of dogs sniffing and licking each others' butts completely oblivious to how humans regard that behavior (and I imagine Wade's getting more out of that than Will, but I digress... besides, Will doesn't seem to mind s*** on his nose).

I'd pity them, but their stupidity prevents them from feeling what should be massive pain, so I'll just point and laugh.

*points and laughs* ...stupid dogs.

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 Post subject: Re: The Last Best Hope for LDS Apologetics and Mormonism?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:04 am 
Will Schryver wrote:
lizzie:
Quote:
You claim that David misunderstood your comment. If it did not mean that you have personal connections with unnamed others who could destroy his aspirations, as he suggested, and you did not mean that you were tacitly referring to his possible apostasy, then what DID you mean?

A fair question.

Here’s the relevant passage from my original post:
Quote:
”What you fail to understand is that I am not the only one who is watching. How tragic when aspirations and possibilities draw further and further apart, without us even being aware ... "


Let’s first parse David’s dramatic commentary on what I said:
Quote:
… Will suggests that he has personal connections with unnamed others …

There is, of course, nothing whatsoever in my post that makes reference to “personal connections with unnamed others.” I’m not sure what eisegetical tick led David to that conclusion, but it is not warranted by the text, nor by my intent.

He continues:
Quote:
… who will destroy my personal aspirations …

Again, I’m not sure what eisegetical tick led David to that conclusion, but it is not warranted by the text, nor by my intent.

What I did say is that “I am not the only one who is watching.” And so it is. Many people have followed David’s recent posting history with interest. Among these are people who would very much like to have a trained Old Testament scholar among the ranks of the faithful Latter-day Saints. It is a fascinating and potentially instructive field of study. However, many of those watching, including myself, have found themselves feeling uncomfortable with some of David’s interpretations, as well as the frequently condescending and authoritative fashion in which he has advocated for those interpretations. One of these “watchers” felt that some of David’s statements amounted to, in his words, “getting ahead of the Brethren.” While I don’t necessarily believe that phrase fully encapsulates the nature of my personal discomfort with some of David’s exegetical postures, it will suffice for my purposes in the present context.

For example, David, on several occasions, quite explicitly criticized the modern leadership of the Church of Jesus Christ for failing (in his opinion) to feel the same urgency he does about implementing the Law of Consecration. Doing so immediately caused a warning siren to sound in the minds of many “watchers,” and thereby served to diminish his (David’s) perceived authority and reliability as a faithful expounder of scriptural import. This diminuition of perceived reliability has thus had the effect of increasing the distance between David’s manifest aspirations to be considered a reliable source for faithful scriptural exegesis, and the previous extent of the possibilities he has to fill that role over the course of his life.

Additionally, his increasing propensity to identify with and find common cause with a number of undeniably confirmed apostates (not “members struggling with their faith,” but clear-cut cases of confirmed and active apostasy) has further eroded his credibility among those who hoped to look to him for reliable (and faithful) scriptural exegesis. Again, this diminuition of perceived reliability has thus had the effect of increasing the distance between David’s manifest aspirations to be considered a reliable source for faithful scriptural exegesis, and the previous extent of the possibilities he has to fill that role over the course of his life.

Now, returning again to David’s erroneous exegesis of my statement, one is led to wonder what might have induced him to jump so precipitously to the conclusion he did?

I suspect it is because there are other people—people with whom I have little or no personal connection—who are also assessing David’s future suitability for a position over which they have direct responsibility. I am not privy to such things, but apparently David is, and therefore I can imagine that, if he felt there was potentially something in his public message board communications that would lead such persons to have reactions similar to those I describe above, then it could also have a direct impact on his more immediate aspirations of employment. I cannot speak to that question with any degree of certainty, but David’s reaction seems to bear out the correctness of my suspicions.

Needless to say, my comments were very much general in nature, whereas David’s reaction and concerns were very much specific. I, of course, could not have anticipated his misperception of my meaning, and the relationship of that misperception to a set of circumstances about which I know nothing. All I could do is contradict his interpretation—which contradiction he has summarily rejected, as he has continued to promote—with the zeal of a dedicated martyr—his eisegetical perspective on the matter.

I hope that adequately answers your question, liz. I can't imagine that I will have much, if anything, more to say of the matter.


Will, I took your clarification at face value.

However, according to this thread here on MDD, it appears that either YOU are lying, or DAVID is lying:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/539 ... e__st__200

Did you, or did you not email people at BYU and/or MI in an attempt to discredit David?


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