Do you admire these qualities because Will happens to be deeply committed to the same social group as you or is it because being deeply committed to a belief is a good thing all by itself?

And if there's one thing I've learned from you, it's that sincerity can be faked, particularly when it's my own.

I used to think commitment to a cause by itself was a virtue, but as I've gotten older, it's become clear that kindness and love trump passion for any dogma.

Sincerely laughing here. (insert laughing smilie)

Not everyone can make me laugh out loud, Runtu. :-)

You forget, I'm a anti-capitalist, which means that with everything else I own, I give my sincerity to others for free.

Apparently, it takes a special kind of insincerity to make you laugh. :)

You are a wise man, John. And I fully agree.

Because I believe deeply in the truthfulness of Mormonism and its efforts to establish a Zion community, despite our disagreements, I both admire and appreciate Will's commitment to the cause.

What I find interesting about you Enuma is you are a genuinely nice person. To go this far to extend the olive branch to Will to demonstrate this is a good example. Will dishes it out... you don't. If you're going to play the 900 pound gorilla, it's going to come back; a function of karma. I see your killing them with kindness tactic a mixture of personal agenda and heartfelt goodwill. The main point you and Will have in common is the same, which is you both share the plight of continuing to deceive people into belief that Mormonism is true, when you both know for a fact it's not. Your underlying agenda is the purpose of this thread and is one I find sickening, mainly because you both know there's a willing audience who wants you both to succeed. They trust you to tell them the truth and believe your concocted arguments to hide the truth from them.

In the end Enuma, masked behind the supposed believers you both are, is the knowledge that Mormonism is false; you are partners in crime. This is why you both continue to present reverse engineered lies that tap dance around doubt to create an avenue for the believer to hold onto the desire that Mormonism is true based on distortion. The believers need people like you... someone to lie to them. This need to form alliances is your motivation IMO, and whether or not it's rooted in supposed good intent, its heart is outright deception.

You both know enough about Mormon history to know its false, yet champion a cause you feel you can make flowered up arguments people will believe for whatever reason that motivates you both... the quintessential false witnesses. This is why you continue to ignore the fact that there's so many flaws with the testimony of Joseph Smith based on the facts, anyone with an ounce of deductive reasoning would see though it in a microsecond if they knew the actual truth... it's your collective agenda to deceive them.

There is no historical evidence to prove the Book of Mormon true, yet you argue there is, without presenting any data. You both know magical occult seer stones placed in a hat were the method of translating the Book of Mormon, and that those same seer stones were used for money-digging to see evil treasure guardians. You both know the Book of Abraham was "translated" (incorrectly) from a common funerary text from the pagan book of the dead, yet continue to champion all is not what it seems to be... you know all of this, as you have to in order to concoct theoretically plausible scenarios to convince others to believe your own supposed "faith" that you believe Joseph Smith's true history should be ignored. I find your motives to exemplify to worst part of humanity, which is to lie for personal agenda.

In the end Enuma, your choices will define who you were and your mark on this earth. If you (and Will) are successful, then others will believe the distortion you feed them based on what you know to be false. Sleep well... the very God you profess to believe in makes his stand on lying very clear.

http://biblelight.net/false-prophets.htm

Nah, I'm not particularly wise, but I am smart enough to know that kindness and commitment to a cause are not mutually exclusive.

Stop it David. You've already converted me to your pork butt, next thing you'll be converting me to your religion...

So what you mean to say is you admire Will for believing just like you.

I was in Texas last week and had the most amazing meal at a BBQ that has been open continuously for 85 years. I'm sure David's is good, but not that good.

For what it's worth, it's silly to call someone who professes sincere belief a liar and deceiver just because you disagree with them.

Zee (and others), I wouldn't be too worried if DB can't be openly persuaded to consider Mopologetics for what it is. I think he's revealed enough to show that he clearly understands the problems. The foundation of Mopologetics is a kind of bullying. Bullies, of course, are what they are due to problems that they have that aren't always necessarily their fault. Getting "beat up" on a mission during a bible bash can leave emotional scars, for instance. DB, of course, will be required to disagree with this, but I think deep down he understands what's going on -- his posts reveal this.

The thing is, if one desires to be a force for good among one's peers, and if the peers happen to have these deep personal issues, their behavior is unlikely to be curtailed by showing them the truth about themselves -- the bully is highly skilled at evading his reflection. While the critic is certainly right in pointing out these flaws, one among the ranks who wishes to make a difference will likely need to take another path. Bullies most likely can't be cured, or truly repent, but their behavior in theory can be defused, and this can happen with the help of those who have a vested interest in the Bullies well-being; it won't be by the way of pointing out truth though, but much like, you know, what DB is doing now, some guidance administered with a healthy dose of encouragement and self-esteem building. I hope it works out, it might with the rising generation of mid-tiers.

"I couldn't have done better had I been in their circumstance", I gotcha, *wink*, I really do. And I echo what Scratch has said elsewhere, the Church will be greatly credited if David one day in the future becomes the leader for the next generation of Mopologists.

No offense, Thews, but honestly, you crack me up. I can assure you, I'm a very transparent soul. Those who know me can attest that I wear my passion and my sentiments on my sleeve. I don't have any underlying agendas in life that I know of.

I do.

I really need to make a PDF of my First Place Butt award that hangs over the fireplace mantel so that I can show you guys. I don't like to brag, but it is an impressive thing!

I wonder what the real agenda was behind your pork butt entry?

The establishment of an unconventional Zion?

Oh, wait... does Nightlion do BBQ?

No, not at all. In fact there are some very important issue upon which Will and I disagree. But given my belief in the truthfulness of these issues, as a believer, I appreciate and admire his dedication to Mormonism and the building of Zion.