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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - The Vulgar Scatologist of LDS Apologetics
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:11 pm 
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Droopy wrote:
Let's take a look at some salient excertps from Sethpayne's blog:

Quote:
I believe there are two major types of LDS critics; those who are critical of particular Church policies and practices, and those who are critical of specific LDS truth claims. If I am to be considered a Mormon critic, I would fit in the former category as I have no real interest in the veracity of Mormon truth claims.


This, perhaps, might be the ultimate definition one could field regarding the term "Cultural Mormon".

Quote:
Granted, when I get together with my Mormon buddies who find such things interesting, we’ll discuss Mormon doctrine critically — meaning we will analyze specific doctrinal truth claims in an academic, rather than a strictly spiritual way.


This is pregnant with implications, but we'll move on for brevity's sake.

Quote:
Frankly, I have no real interest in criticizing Mormon truth claims, even though there are many I don’t personally find plausible (see below).


Now Sethpayne's claim to be a "believing" Mormon begins to show its problematic nature. Note that the gospel's foundational "truth claims" have been, to a large measure, rejected, while something approaching, if Sethpaynes arguments here are any indication, a vague ethical/social Christian worldview that goes little beyond, what from an LDS perspective would be a arguable positive and admirable - but spiritually tepid (the gospel of Jesus Christ offers deification and eternal life, after all) ethical engagement with the world.

Quote:
So, while I am not a critic of Mormon truth-claims; I am a critic of some LDS Church policies.


This is logically incoherent. Sethpayne has already claimed, in the same essay that "I have no real interest in the veracity of Mormon truth claims", and hence, by definition, has become a critic of those claims. I don't think an attempt at a pure neutrality is going to wash, philosophically (it never does) here, because this would imply, if taken seriously, that Sethpayne, when confronted with a fundamental LDS truth claim, could claim absolute neutrality and simply throw up his hands and walk away from "the terrible questions".

This isn't philosophically tenable for the reason that, in the first instance, by having no interest in core metaphysical truth claims, one has already staked out a critical position regarding them. In the second place, if forced into a corner and asked to make some intellectually substantive statement regarding those truth claims, that response could not be anything other than the reasons one does not find them interesting or relevant. It would seem to me that not finding the fundamental propositions of the gospel regarding the nature and meaning of existence and our mortal experience of any interest or relevance is, itself, a clear statement of value judgment as well as a clear intellectual positioning upon those subjects that both, by definition, would place one in an apostate situation regarding those truth claims (as the details of gospel belief are inextricably linked with the core metaphysical propositions).

Quote:
Namely, I vehemently disagree with the Church’s stance on Same-sex Marriage and I have made my views public on several occasions.


No single criticism of Church social and moral views could be more exemplary of open hostility ( an open condition of apostasy, in other language), than this. Again, that position of homosexual marriage is inextricably linked to the Church fundamental view of sexual morality and the purpose and place of human sexuality within the mortal context, and these understandings are themselves inextricably linked to the gospel''s fundamental truth claims.


Quote:
Most of my criticism of the Church’s stance came right after the Proposition 8 fallout in 2008. I have many close gay and lesbian friends and one, in particular, who’s Mormon family disowned him after he “came out” in 2008.


This is interesting in and of itself, as I do not have many such friends, nor does anyone I know. What we could have here is yet another example of running to the Great and Spacious Building when the finger pointing and mocking from the cool people becomes to great a perceived burden, no? There are welcoming arms in that building for one who sees the error of his ways and comes to hold the "politically correct" positions.

Quote:
I want to stress that this is not typical of Mormon families. Most Mormon families with gay or lesbian members struggle with it, but in the end they ultimately accept their son/daughter/sibling despite the fact that Mormon doctrine is clearly opposed to homosexuality.


I have no idea what Seth knows or does not know about "most Mormon families with gay or lesbian members", but suffice it to say that, with exclusive homosexual orientation existing at about 3% of the population, its presence in LDS families could not be more than this, making the phenomena exceeding rare.

A close family member came out as homosexual about ten years ago, and then later left it behind. In no case was he ever not accepted as a family member. Nor at any time did our faith in and testimony of the Church's teachings of eternal principles on this matter waver.

Quote:
My open criticism of this policy came as a result of my personal relationships with friends who were deeply hurt by this particular Church position.


Woe, the scriptures tell us, to all who are, in the end, "overcome of the world".

Quote:
Having said that, I become extremely frustrated when people try and label Mormons as “homophobic” or “bigots” etc… Its just not that simple. My mother, for example, absolutely adores my gay friend Devan but she supports the Church in its policy. This is not bigotry.


No, it isn't

Quote:
The other Church policy I have been openly critical of is the one-year waiting period required to receive what is known as a temple sealing if they chose to have a civil ceremony first. I understand the origins and intent of the policy but at this point in time I feel it does more harm than good. Additionally, it only applies in the United States (and perhaps Canada). Most countries require a civil wedding ceremony. In those countries the Church does not require a waiting period. To me the current policy is antiquated and counter-productive. I would not be surprised to see this policy change at some point in the next 5-10 years.


This is no surprise for someone who does not take the core metaphysical claims of the Church seriously, as without this, even a rudimentary understanding of the deep importance and sacredness of the Temple is not even approachable.

Quote:
Am I an apostate? My own personal views are rather heterodox and some things I enjoy (in terms of the Word of Wisdom etc…) are certainly heteroprax but I think it is completely inappropriate to call me an apostate. I love attending Church and participating in Church activities. Simply put, I like being a Mormon and as I’ve stated above, Mormon truth-claims are really not all that important to me. Serving within my Mormon community is what matters.


One can see Sethpayne playing psychological and rhetorical games with both himself and his readers now.

Quote:
Granted, I am not trying to defend the historicity of the Book of Mormon or the authenticity of the Book of Abraham — I believe both to be apocryphal. However, I will defend Mormonism against offensive and absurd attacks.


In other words, as Sethayane here makes quite clear, what he defends when he does defend is not the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, or the restored Kingdom of God on earth (the Church), but his tribe; his people and his culture.

Belief that the BofM and BofA are "apocryphal" places Sethpyane, of course, in a position of essentially being a non-member of the Church in all but name. This raises problems for the individual (participating in the religious services and practices of a religious system that is, as to fundamental truth claims, a bald fraud) but perhaps not for others around him, if as sethpyane claims, he is not an evangelist of unfaith. But is this logically plausible?

Can one who believes both the BofM and the BofA - both foundational sources of core truth claims - are fictitious creations, possible avoid, in any discussion with faithful lDS, making those beliefs explicit, and the reasons for holding them? Might this not have an effect on others, especially those spiritually weak or immature and who are susceptible to intellectual/psycholgical doubt and instability?

Most "believing" LDS would think such people need precisely the opposite.


Droopy,

Three things:

1) I have never made it a secret that I am not a literal believer in the metaphysical truth-claims of Mormonism. My Bishop knows it, my family knows it, and my EQP knows it. In other words, I have never claimed to be a "believer" in the sense that you are a "believer." Certainly, our beliefs differ. I'm a bit confused at your attempt to "out" me as a non-believer by quoting from my blog.

2) Saying that I don't view the Book of Mormon or Book of Abraham as plausible history is not a "rejection" -- it is simply my opinion. You can't prove the Book of Mormon isn't history just as you can't prove that it is.

3) If my membership in the Church is a concern to you please feel free to contact my Bishop, my EQP, and the families I home teach. I have provided this information previously in the thread but for convenience I will repeat it here:

Stake: Manhattan, NY
Ward: Morningside Heights Ward
Bishop: John Moe

PM me if you would like to speak with my Mother, or any of my siblings. I will happily provide you with contact information so you can warn them of the wolf within their family.

Seth

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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - The Vulgar Scatologist of LDS Apologetics
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:30 pm 
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Quote:
If I have the time and inclination, I might create a sockpuppet that holds all the essential "metaphysical" positions of Sethpayne and see if I can gain the acceptance of Will and others. I really believe it's Sethpayne's MO and personality that gets him labeled as an apostate by the apologists.


I am really quite puzzled by the reaction my participation in the Church elucidates from some people like Droopy and William. However, I should say that only certain apologists view me as an apostate. I receive such incredible kindness from the likes of David Bokovoy, mbukowski, LoaP, Lamanite, mercyandgrace, alter idem, and so many others..... We have mutual respect for one another despite our differences in belief or opinion.

Quote:
BTW, Trevor, do you think Seth would be considered an outright apostate by LoaP who apparently has sent drafts of his writings to Seth? If not, is Will or LoaP, both "literal believers" (which I think covers a lot of ground) better qualified to make a call on Seth's standing in the church?


While Blair and I certainly don't agree on metaphysics ... we have mutual respect for each others academic work. Blair originally contacted me about my work on ex-Mormon narratives and, as he quoted my work in his paper, he wanted to know my thoughts.

Blair is an open-minded and kind guy. The Church will benefit from his thoughtful, but faithful analysis of difficult issues.

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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - The Vulgar Scatologist of LDS Apologetics
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:22 pm 
sethpayne wrote:
Hi Trevor,

I think you have a pretty good grasp of where I am coming from. I am not a literal believer. My goal as a member of the Church is to build on commonalities I share with my fellow Mormons. I don't pretend to believe in things that I don't but I also don't get up in testimony meeting and advertise my heterodoxy either. Depending on the circumstances I will share my reasons for viewing things the way I do but the absolute last thing I would want to do is damage an individual's testimony of the Church. If that testimony works for them and makes for a happy life, then that testimony is good.

On the other hand, there have been occasions where people have come to me saying that they have serious concerns over X or Y etc... In those cases I will be more open about my views.

What William fails to grasp is that I have plenty of places to share my personal views of the LDS Church and its teachings. I have here, my blog, MADB etc... Sacrament meeting, Sunday School, and Priesthood are not venues for me to espouse my beliefs if those beliefs are at odds with the official teachings of the Church.

You see, I have respect for the LDS Church as an institution. The Church has the right and responsibility to teach members what the FP and Q12 feel should be taught. Who am I to tell the LDS Church what to believe or what to teach? It is not my place.

I go to Church because I love the community and I have more in common with my fellow Saints one might imagine.

Just the other day in Priesthood we were discussing the Book of Enos. Now, I personally don't' believe that Enos was a real person or that the events described took place in actual history. However, the story of Enos has great power and is illustrative of the benefits of honest prayer. So, when at Church and when interacting with my fellow ward members I focus on those things I do believe and not on the things I don't believe. Again, I try and build on commonalities.

And, to be perfectly honest, I could be completely wrong. When I die I could end up before God and he could say "Seth, you were SO off-base.... I'd like you to meet some friends of mine. Nephi, Moroni, Alma, and Enos.... come on over and meet Seth." However, believing that God is merciful and has a perfect understanding of all things I could, with a clear concscience, say that I simply did the best I could with what I was given.

Seth

Would that all who experience significant doubt would be like unto sethpayne. I appreciate your post brother.


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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - The Vulgar Scatologist of LDS Apologetics
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:30 pm 
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Gadianton wrote:
Will -- I believe in God, and I believe the literal historical truth of the Book of Abraham is the wrong issue for debate, the narrative is what's important. Though I think the events are historical in some way -- let's not be too specific here -- dwelling on that is a distraction from the real message.


Will can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that he sees the actual antiquity of the text as important. Whether it is a product of Hellenistic-era Judaism or some such is not to be troubled over, but that it contains revelatory material that connects with antiquity in some way is the important thing. These traditions would, of course, probably go back to Abraham in some fashion.

By the way, I think Bushman's preference for narrative theology is great. My respect for you has risen because you know something about this. Cool.

Gadianton wrote:
Seth -- I believe in God, and I believe the literal historical truth of the Book of Abraham is the wrong issue for debate, the narrative is what's important. Though I think the events aren't historical, I could be wrong, but dwelling on them is a distraction from the real message.


Yes, amazing how two people can sound so similar on the surface and yet mean such different things. This is also what drives a lot of Christians crazy about Mormonism. ;-)

Gadianton wrote:
BTW, Trevor, do you think Seth would be considered an outright apostate by LoaP who apparently has sent drafts of his writings to Seth? If not, is Will or LoaP, both "literal believers" (which I think covers a lot of ground) better qualified to make a call on Seth's standing in the church?


Where on earth did you get the idea that I thought anyone ought to consider sethpayne an apostate? I was simply explaining why I thought it likely that certain people would.

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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - The Vulgar Scatologist of LDS Apologetics
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:17 pm 
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Quote:
Would that all who experience significant doubt would be like unto sethpayne. I appreciate your post brother.


Tim,

Thank you for the kind words. It means a lot. Seriously. A lot.

Seth

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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - The Vulgar Scatologist of LDS Apologetics
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:02 pm 
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Well,

In respect to Mr. "Gookie Cookie" Schryver showing up to the Trailer Park and clearly outclassing its denizens I'd like to remind the Mormons what kind of champion you have (emphasis mine):

Quote:
What do we have here? A new candidate for the GSTP "loathsome specimen of womanhood" award?

Sad.

It's bad enough to watch what happens to the male apostates, but when the women go down that path, it gets really ugly really fast ...

My sincere condolences to your family.


Let us not be too concerned for Mr. Cookie's sentiments when it comes to his family. He, apparently, is all to willing to bring family into his vulgar tirades.

Quote:
So it is with so many of these people. I honestly believe that if, by some strange combination of events, similar circumstances were to arise in this country as did in 1933 Germany, an overwhelming majority of the Mormon apostate evangelists would quite enthusiastically "put to the ovens" as many of the Saints as they possibly could.


Hitler!

Quote:
No doubt this list could only be exceeded in length by my voluminous forays into crass vulgarity.


He delights in his wicked ways.

Quote:
Sometimes I seriously wonder what some of these people are capable of. I've known for years that they would have joined in the mob that rushed the Carthage Jail, but now it's starting to look like just about any defender of Mormonism could potentially be made a target for their blood lust.


Well. You know. This is coming from a guy who has "ape arms" and a "pumpkin head" who "fights to kill". So. Ah. Yeeeeaaaahhh....

To be continued...

V/R
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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - The Vulgar Scatologist of LDS Apologetics
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:07 pm 
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More from Mr. Schryver:

Quote:
Speaking of which, let me hereby reiterate the comments I made towards the two allegedly female posters on this board (I emphasize "allegedly" because, seeing as how they both post anonymously, we therefore have no way of verifying their gender). In my ever-so-humble opinion, the MDB posters who go by the names "beastlie" and "dissonance" (or some variations thereof), are two of the most loathsome specimens of womanhood I have ever encountered in my half-century of life upon this planet. Of course, my opinion of these two females (or shemales, as the case may be) is shared by many, and therefore I speak also in behalf of several others whose association with the two creatures in question has produced sentiments similar to my own.

In any case, should the allegedly offended Sgt. CamNC4Me be so motivated by his indignation, I welcome him to be in attendance at the inevitable public debate between me and Mark Hofmann's old trusty sidekick, Brent Metcalfe. After the debate, we can repair to the parking lot where the "noble defender of the defenseless" may "hit me with his best shot" and then pray it was sufficient to render me incapable of reciprocation. Bear in mind that I am a devout adherent to the Ronald Speirs philosophy of combat. I take no prisoners. Hence the invitation for my putative opponent to attempt to deliver the first blow and thus provide me with an air-tight claim of self-defense.

I must confess that I find it fascinating that this is now the third member of The Great and Spacious Trailer Park (lostindc and Cracker Graham being the others) to threaten me with bodily harm whilst laboring under the perpetual state of humiliation consequent to engaging me in purely rhetorical contests.


Well. I'm not sure what to make of this rambling nonsense, but I will be delivering a cartoon shortly.

V/R
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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - The Vulgar Scatologist of LDS Apologetics
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:12 pm 
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Once again Mr. Schryver goes as low as the villains he complains about:

Quote:
It's no wonder your marriage disintegrated, and it's no wonder you no longer can discern right from wrong when it comes to things like the inspiration of the brethren, the meaning of the Kirtland Egyptian Papers, and the various issues surrounding the Book of Abraham.

I'm thinking that outbursts like the one above and the ones seen on the thread with Liz are the result of you drinking a little too much. Maybe you should consider getting some help for your issues. Maybe in the process, you'll start to see lots of other things more clearly, too.

Anyway, just a suggestion. I'm sure you'll ignore it; even be offended by it.

Oh, well ... I'm not even convinced you're entirely responsible for your actions, since you manifest several signs of serious mental illness. I'm just saying that you obviously need some help. I hope you get it somewhere.


Wow. What a piece of s*** moment the Champion of All Things Mormon is having. I wonder what The Bretheren would think of this Priesthood holder acting like this?

V/R
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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - The Vulgar Scatologist of LDS Apologetics
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:15 pm 
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For someone who likes to boast that The Rest of Us Would Have to Masturbate to His Wife:

Quote:
And now, speaking of serious "issues", Moniker shows up to chip in her two cents worth.
.
.
.
By the way, have I previously mentioned that seven of nine is my favorite Star Trek character of all time?


Yeah. This Mormon Priesthood Holder certainly doesn't objectify, denigrate, or sexualize women at all. Nope.

V/R
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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - The Vulgar Scatologist of LDS Apologetics
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:17 pm 
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Mr. Schryver coming onto Liz:

Quote:
By the way, Liz, just so you know: there was nothing derogatory towards you, not at all -- you know of my growing affection for you -- let's just say I was making inquiries into whether or not you have any vacancies in your special room ... what do you call it now?


Wow. That's chaste, virtuous, and an example for all other Disciples of Christ to follow I suppose...

V/R
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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - The Vulgar Scatologist of LDS Apologetics
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:20 pm 
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Mr. Schryver infantalizing a woman and making a dick-size joke:

Quote:
If so, darling, I'd say it's just about commensurate with your envy. ;-)
.
.
.
Edit: Besides, I think you would be the first to assure us that size does NOT matter.


I'm pretty sure most Mormons who would read this thread are beaming with pride to know Mr. Schryver reprents them (he had his Calling and Election Made Sure).

V/R
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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - The Vulgar Scatologist of LDS Apologetics
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:24 pm 
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More Dick Jokes from Mr. Schryver:

Quote:
Well, I assume we're supposed to regard it as a "symbol" rather than an illustration. Perhaps it was considered in bad taste to "illustrate" with anatomically-correct images, and so they moved things around a little bit so as to not discomfit the ladies too much.

Still, the damn thing is half the diameter of his leg! That's got to "discomfit the ladies" no matter where it's positioned. ;-)


This is especially interesting since Mr. Schryver made the assertion that ex-Mormons would go all Holocaust on Mormons if given the chance:


Quote:
To the contrary, dear beastlie. Assuming that Scratchy is still on the records (as Coggins suggests), and if I were in his ward or stake, and I knew his true identity, I would rat him out to the stake president in a heartbeat and also volunteer to be a witness against him in a "court of love." Indeed, there are several participants on this board, who, if they are still masquerading as members in good standing, I would also rat them out if I could. Purge the whole lot of them, I would. Ride 'em out of the chapel on a rail, weeping and wailing all the way.

My only real regret is that we can't bring back some of these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_maide ... _device%29

If that whole multiple mortal probation stuff has any basis, then I'm quite sure I was Torquemada in a past life. Man, those were the days!


V/R
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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - The Vulgar Scatologist of LDS Apologetics
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:28 pm 
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Mr. Schryver revealing temple secrets and wishing for a murderous revenge-organization to still be in existence:

Quote:
Endowed in July 1979. Live session at the Salt Lake Temple. Didn't bother me at all. Thought it was quite fascinating. I especially liked the guy who got to play the role of Satan. He was a good actor. Really sold the part well. Not that I understood it all at the time. Who could? But I wasn't shocked or repulsed by any of it, not even the penalty stuff. Made it seem more serious, I suppose. I kind of regretted it when they dispensed with that part. That, and the preacher guy. I just loved his little speech about the God who is everywhere and nowhere, etc., etc. Classic stuff!

I suppose my only real regret is that the Danites aren't still around to make you apostates pay up for breaking your oaths. Oh, those were the good old days . . .


Irony at its best.

V/R
Dr. Cam

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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - The Vulgar Scatologist of LDS Apologetics
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:32 pm 
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To his very limited credit he gives good advice to his poor family:

Quote:
I have accordingly taught my daughters that education, achievement, marriage, and motherhood can all coexist – but that it won’t always be easy, and it will require them to utilize their free agency in such a way as to do the best they can given the challenges and ever-changing circumstances of a demanding life.


For a guy who likes to denigrate other people's familial situations he certainly puts a lot of information about his own family on the InterTubes. Hopefully he reconsiders this M.O..

V/R
Dr. Cam

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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - The Vulgar Scatologist of LDS Apologetics
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:35 pm 
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Oh my:

Quote:
First of all, you try to tell my beloved 22-year-old "wenchlette" to "shut up and do as you're told." She'd kick your pansy-ass from here to Montana, let you stew in your humiliation for a while, then come back and mock you for good measure.

As for my Dear Wife, the "Wrong-headed-wench" -- well, you should hear what she calls me.

Terms of endearment have many forms and fashions -- adapted to those who employ them. I will allow you to choose yours -- once and if you can ever find a female to latch herself onto you. So please allow me to choose mine.


Mother & daughter. Vulgarity. Yeah. *shakes head*

V/R
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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - The Vulgar Scatologist of LDS Apologetics
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:13 pm 
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Here's a video for Mr. William and his wife:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Zu_YcSSiow

Hopefully they can find... Uh... All sorts of ways to bond.

V/R
Dr. Cam

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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - The Vulgar Scatologist of LDS Apologetics
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:15 am 
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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - The Vulgar Scatologist of LDS Apologetics
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:15 am 
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Will Schryver wrote:
LDSToronto wrote:
I wonder if the french fries in the food court will come pre-blessed to strengthen and nourish my body?

No doubt.

Best of all, the restrooms will be kept sparkling clean, thus making them extremely attractive as points of rendezvous for you and your craigslist friends.

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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - The Vulgar Scatologist of LDS Apologetics
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:35 am 
God
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Location: Kli-flos-is-es
See that, MAD visitors? See what Will is like when he doesn't think anyone's looking?

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Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - The Vulgar Scatologist of LDS Apologetics
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:57 am 
God
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Seth,

Your contributions in this thread are a pleasure to read.

Considering the bulk of this thread (IMO, a complete train wreck to be sure) I applaud your enormous efforts on display.

These boards are most fortunate to have you participate on them.

Peace and bravo,
Ceeboo


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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - The Vulgar Scatologist of LDS Apologetics
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:15 am 
God

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Location: Shady Acres Status: MODERATOR
Ceeboo wrote:
Considering the bulk of this thread (IMO, a complete train wreck to be sure) ...


Well, the thread's about Will. Did you expect any but a complete train wreck?

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(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.


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