It is currently Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:33 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 217 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Top Ten Reasons to be Excited About General Conference
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:04 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:45 am
Posts: 7530
Location: somewhere else
consiglieri wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:
That seem pretty hard and harsh. Would you treat your wife this way?


Thanks for saying that so well, Jason.

I don't know why Will hates Emma so much.

I think she is the unsung hero of Mormonism.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri


It's because he's never read a book or done any archival reading or research on her. He's only spewing bile here because he delights in trolling. His beloved Joseph Smith would slap him in the face for such discourtesy. I admit it's difficult to get one's mind around their relationship, but it is pretty clear that Emma and Joseph loved each other deeply and were inextricably bonded to each other. It's possible to put several kinds of psychological interpretation on that, and probably called for as well. But one indication of how far Emma differs from the she-cat of Will's pathetic imagination is how much Joseph trusted Emma with his money: she carried on a great deal of the business end of both family and church. I imagine, in fact, that it was her expertise at such "unwomanly" work that got up the nose of Elders Young and Co.

_________________
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top Ten Reasons to be Excited About General Conference
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:17 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:06 pm
Posts: 15049
Location: Sterling, Virginia
Blixa wrote:
It's because he's never read a book or done any archival reading or research on her. He's only spewing bile here because he delights in trolling. His beloved Joseph Smith would slap him in the face for such discourtesy. I admit it's difficult to get one's mind around their relationship, but it is pretty clear that Emma and Joseph loved each other deeply and were inextricably bonded to each other. It's possible to put several kinds of psychological interpretation on that, and probably called for as well. But one indication of how far Emma differs from the she-cat of Will's pathetic imagination is how much Joseph trusted Emma with his money: she carried on a great deal of the business end of both family and church. I imagine, in fact, that it was her expertise at such "unwomanly" work that got up the nose of Elders Young and Co.


I think there's a tendency among some to think you need to "choose sides," like we're picking kickball teams in elementary school. And some people believe that, once you've picked your team, you go all the way in or not at all. Thus, the other team (in this case apostates and unbelievers) is pure evil and as dedicated as you are to promoting their team. They can't understand that most people just don't care that much and don't have such passion about their team.

Thus, Emma quit the team and must be vilified. Trouble is, life is never that simple. Emma went through a lot and stuck with Joseph through things most women would not have. Her big sin isn't being a bitch or opposing polygamy; it's not sticking with the church.

_________________
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top Ten Reasons to be Excited About General Conference
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:37 pm 
\m/ \m/
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:52 am
Posts: 12067
Location: inside your heart-shaped box
Top Ten Reasons--

Tomorrow at 10:14 AM MDT, TSM will take the podium unexpectedly, a new countenance will overcome him, he will look like he is only 45 years old, halos of light will emanate from his personage and he will tell all those gathered to exit the building, look at Mt Olympus and behold the Apocalrock and all that god truly has to tell them.

_________________
Historians idolize the truth. The truth is not uplifting; it destroys. * * * Historians should tell only that part of the truth that is inspiring and uplifting. Boyd K Packer

The truth doesn't hurt unless it ought to. B C Forbes

See a sock puppet parody of Kurt Cobain here


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top Ten Reasons to be Excited About General Conference
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:47 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:05 pm
Posts: 11830
sock puppet wrote:
Top Ten Reasons--

Tomorrow at 10:14 AM MDT, TSM will take the podium unexpectedly, a new countenance will overcome him, he will look like he is only 45 years old, halos of light will emanate from his personage and he will tell all those gathered to exit the building, look at Mt Olympus and behold the Apocalrock and all that god truly has to tell them.


And then busts out laughing apologizing for his March the 32nd joke being late.

_________________
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top Ten Reasons to be Excited About General Conference
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:55 pm 
\m/ \m/
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:52 am
Posts: 12067
Location: inside your heart-shaped box
The Nehor wrote:
sock puppet wrote:
Top Ten Reasons--

Tomorrow at 10:14 AM MDT, TSM will take the podium unexpectedly, a new countenance will overcome him, he will look like he is only 45 years old, halos of light will emanate from his personage and he will tell all those gathered to exit the building, look at Mt Olympus and behold the Apocalrock and all that god truly has to tell them.


And then busts out laughing apologizing for his March the 32nd joke being late.

That's what makes you excited about GC? Seeing a 90+ year old man blowing chunks of cookies while laughing uncontrollably? I think it's time Dr Scratch added an appendix to your entry in the Encyclopedia of Mopologetics.

_________________
Historians idolize the truth. The truth is not uplifting; it destroys. * * * Historians should tell only that part of the truth that is inspiring and uplifting. Boyd K Packer

The truth doesn't hurt unless it ought to. B C Forbes

See a sock puppet parody of Kurt Cobain here


Last edited by sock puppet on Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top Ten Reasons to be Excited About General Conference
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:57 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:05 pm
Posts: 11830
sock puppet wrote:
That's what makes you exited about GC? Seeing a 90+ year old man blowing chunks of cookies while laughing uncontrollably? I think it's time Dr Scratch added an appendix to your entry in the Encyclopedia of Mopologetics.


I think you should. From what my informants tell me his mom wants him to get off WoW and that seems a good method of diverting him.

_________________
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top Ten Reasons to be Excited About General Conference
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:14 pm 
\m/ \m/
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:52 am
Posts: 12067
Location: inside your heart-shaped box
The Nehor wrote:
sock puppet wrote:
That's what makes you exited about GC? Seeing a 90+ year old man blowing chunks of cookies while laughing uncontrollably? I think it's time Dr Scratch added an appendix to your entry in the Encyclopedia of Mopologetics.


I think you should. From what my informants tell me his mom wants him to get off WoW and that seems a good method of diverting him.

You think I should--do what? I did not suggest my contemplating any action in the post to which you responded.

_________________
Historians idolize the truth. The truth is not uplifting; it destroys. * * * Historians should tell only that part of the truth that is inspiring and uplifting. Boyd K Packer

The truth doesn't hurt unless it ought to. B C Forbes

See a sock puppet parody of Kurt Cobain here


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top Ten Reasons to be Excited About General Conference
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:54 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:45 am
Posts: 7530
Location: somewhere else
Runtu wrote:
Blixa wrote:
It's because he's never read a book or done any archival reading or research on her. He's only spewing bile here because he delights in trolling. His beloved Joseph Smith would slap him in the face for such discourtesy. I admit it's difficult to get one's mind around their relationship, but it is pretty clear that Emma and Joseph loved each other deeply and were inextricably bonded to each other. It's possible to put several kinds of psychological interpretation on that, and probably called for as well. But one indication of how far Emma differs from the she-cat of Will's pathetic imagination is how much Joseph trusted Emma with his money: she carried on a great deal of the business end of both family and church. I imagine, in fact, that it was her expertise at such "unwomanly" work that got up the nose of Elders Young and Co.


I think there's a tendency among some to think you need to "choose sides," like we're picking kickball teams in elementary school. And some people believe that, once you've picked your team, you go all the way in or not at all. Thus, the other team (in this case apostates and unbelievers) is pure evil and as dedicated as you are to promoting their team. They can't understand that most people just don't care that much and don't have such passion about their team.

Thus, Emma quit the team and must be vilified. Trouble is, life is never that simple. Emma went through a lot and stuck with Joseph through things most women would not have. Her big sin isn't being a bitch or opposing polygamy; it's not sticking with the church.


That BS was started by Brigham Young. Even Joseph's former polygamous wives who had run-ins with Emma in Nauvoo always spoke of her highly. And no "high-maintenance" woman would have been able to handle the number of sick people and children Emma nursed at home, especially at Nauvoo (nor run an establishment the size of the Mansion House which usually sheltered numbers of newly arrived or destitute members, well before its incarnation as a semi-hotel). After suffering the assassination of her beloved husband, having many of her assets stolen out from under her by BY (including some of Joseph Smith's personal papers), to finally have to endure the heartbreak of David's mental illness---anyone with a shred of human decency would have empathy for her trials.

_________________
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top Ten Reasons to be Excited About General Conference
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:06 pm 
God

Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:35 pm
Posts: 18169
Location: Shady Acres Status: MODERATOR
Blixa wrote:
...anyone with a shred of human decency would have empathy for her trials.


Well, it's Will we're talking about.

If the shoe fits... although in this case, maybe it doesn't?

_________________
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top Ten Reasons to be Excited About General Conference
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:47 pm 
2nd Counselor
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:12 am
Posts: 438
Blixa wrote:
That BS was started by Brigham Young. Even Joseph's former polygamous wives who had run-ins with Emma in Nauvoo always spoke of her highly. And no "high-maintenance" woman would have been able to handle the number of sick people and children Emma nursed at home, especially at Nauvoo (nor run an establishment the size of the Mansion House which usually sheltered numbers of newly arrived or destitute members, well before its incarnation as a semi-hotel). After suffering the assassination of her beloved husband, having many of her assets stolen out from under her by BY (including some of Joseph Smith's personal papers), to finally have to endure the heartbreak of David's mental illness---anyone with a shred of human decency would have empathy for her trials.

Blixa,

Your posts have induced reflection on my part, and I have concluded that you make some very valid points, and that I need to seriously back off from my harsh criticism of Emma Smith.

In fact, I am going to prepare a formal apology for my unwarranted invective directed towards her. But first I am going to re-read Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, a book which I have already read three times, and have thoroughly enjoyed (despite some criticisms I could level against it). After I have immersed myself again in her story, I will speak to this topic again, here, on this message board.

-WS

_________________
I thought myself the wiser to have viewed the evidence left of such a great demise. I followed every step. But the only thing I ever learned before the journey's end was there was nothing there to learn, only something to forget.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top Ten Reasons to be Excited About General Conference
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:12 pm 
Bishop
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:07 pm
Posts: 504
Will Schryver wrote:
Blixa wrote:
That BS was started by Brigham Young. Even Joseph's former polygamous wives who had run-ins with Emma in Nauvoo always spoke of her highly. And no "high-maintenance" woman would have been able to handle the number of sick people and children Emma nursed at home, especially at Nauvoo (nor run an establishment the size of the Mansion House which usually sheltered numbers of newly arrived or destitute members, well before its incarnation as a semi-hotel). After suffering the assassination of her beloved husband, having many of her assets stolen out from under her by BY (including some of Joseph Smith's personal papers), to finally have to endure the heartbreak of David's mental illness---anyone with a shred of human decency would have empathy for her trials.

Blixa,

Your posts have induced reflection on my part, and I have concluded that you make some very valid points, and that I need to seriously back off from my harsh criticism of Emma Smith.

In fact, I am going to prepare a formal apology for my unwarranted invective directed towards her. But first I am going to re-read Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, a book which I have already read three times, and have thoroughly enjoyed (despite some criticisms I could level against it). After I have immersed myself again in her story, I will speak to this topic again, here, on this message board.

-WS

I’m impressed by your willingness to acknowledge having gone too far with your criticisms of Emma Smith. I grant that she did some things that don’t reflect very well on her, but I think one has to keep in mind that we weren’t there and we don’t know all the details or the context of her challenges in life. Best for us to refrain from judging from our cloudy perspectives almost 200 years down the road.

_________________
... she said that she was ready to drive up to Salt Lake City and confront ... Church leaders ... while well armed. The idea was ... dropped ... [because] she didn't have a 12 gauge with her.
-DrW about his friends (Link)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top Ten Reasons to be Excited About General Conference
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:22 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:01 am
Posts: 1284
Oo,oo, I love ventriloquism!

_________________
"The best website in prehistory." -Paid Actor www.cavemandiaries.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top Ten Reasons to be Excited About General Conference
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:47 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:19 pm
Posts: 9279
Blixa wrote:

It's because he's never read a book or done any archival reading or research on her. He's only spewing bile here because he delights in trolling. His beloved Joseph Smith would slap him in the face for such discourtesy. I admit it's difficult to get one's mind around their relationship, but it is pretty clear that Emma and Joseph loved each other deeply and were inextricably bonded to each other. It's possible to put several kinds of psychological interpretation on that, and probably called for as well. But one indication of how far Emma differs from the she-cat of Will's pathetic imagination is how much Joseph trusted Emma with his money: she carried on a great deal of the business end of both family and church. I imagine, in fact, that it was her expertise at such "unwomanly" work that got up the nose of Elders Young and Co.


Actually, if one takes the position that Joseph Smith was a fraud and that Emma would have to be in on it, then I can honestly say that emma was a shameful and terrible human being. If she knew that her hubby was a fraudster and yet, kept her mouth shut, thereby allowing her children undo suffering, well...she was also a child abuser.

Now of course, if Joseph Smith was a fraudster and he duped his wife, I can honestly say that she was a little stupid. Her reputation only survives if her husband is what he claimed to be: a prophet.

_________________
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top Ten Reasons to be Excited About General Conference
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:52 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:19 pm
Posts: 9279
Nomad wrote:

but I think one has to keep in mind that we weren’t there and we don’t know all the details or the context of her challenges in life. Best for us to refrain from judging from our cloudy perspectives almost 200 years down the road.


This also goes for BYs not liking her very much. We have no idea just what happened between them and what was said before and after Joseph was murdered. I would probably guess that BY was not too impressed with her opposition to polygamy by her husband. And that he thought that she caused trouble for Joseph. But most of what was said between them has been lost to the wind.

_________________
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top Ten Reasons to be Excited About General Conference
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:09 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:45 am
Posts: 7530
Location: somewhere else
why me wrote:
This also goes for BYs not liking her very much. We have no idea just what happened between them and what was said before and after Joseph was murdered. I would probably guess that BY was not too impressed with her opposition to polygamy by her husband. And that he thought that she caused trouble for Joseph. But most of what was said between them has been lost to the wind.


Not entirely. I suspect the succession crisis had a great deal to do with the enmity between the western Saints and virtually all of the Smith family. I'm not sure how much of Emma's opposition to polygamy was reason for BY and others' initial enmity. It is instructive to trace how late the demonization of Emma story begin. But thanks for the tip. I'm curious to try to trace this out myself, now.

One thing I am pretty certain of is that despite the terrible problems between them, Emma and Joseph seemed to have sincerely loved each other and been bonded in a way that nearly beggars belief. Of course, I am making this conclusion based on what relatively little sources I have currently read, not having embarked on anything like the archival research necessary for sustained and publishable opinion. Much more work needs to be done on Emma Smith, and I'm not even sure who the scholars are currently working on this. But the Joseph Smith Papers project may turn up some information I've been guessing at, and someone needs to hit the RLDS/CoC archives again.

'Til then I would not easily buy into Brigham's Urban Legends...

_________________
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top Ten Reasons to be Excited About General Conference
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:35 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:57 pm
Posts: 11137
Location: Ithaca
Blixa wrote:
One thing I am pretty certain of is that despite the terrible problems between them, Emma and Joseph seemed to have sincerely loved each other and been bonded in a way that nearly beggars belief.

I like how Joseph Speaks endearingly of home in his journal writings. That, to me, is clear evidence that Emma was a powerful and supportive force in the home. I believe there is much more left unsaid about Emma that we could all benefit from.

This is how I see it: Joseph Smith was a prophet and powerful man on one side of the spectrum and on the other, he was the recipient of a marriage to a woman who was the greatest thing that ever happened to him. I think he knew just how great she was even though he didn't live in a way that was respectful to her hard work and devotion to him and his cause.

_________________
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top Ten Reasons to be Excited About General Conference
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:05 am 
God

Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:35 pm
Posts: 18169
Location: Shady Acres Status: MODERATOR
Blixa wrote:
I suspect the succession crisis had a great deal to do with the enmity between the western Saints and virtually all of the Smith family.


If someone is putting up an idea that is going to deprive you and yours of money, power, and community position, you bet there's going to be enmity... on both sides.

Follow the money. And the money went to Utah.

_________________
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top Ten Reasons to be Excited About General Conference
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:24 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:33 pm
Posts: 12064
Location: Kli-flos-is-es
Spurven Ten Sing wrote:
Oo,oo, I love ventriloquism!


Now, is it Nomad's hand up Will's ass, or vice versa?

_________________
Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top Ten Reasons to be Excited About General Conference
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:43 am 
\m/ \m/
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:52 am
Posts: 12067
Location: inside your heart-shaped box
Buffalo wrote:
Spurven Ten Sing wrote:
Oo,oo, I love ventriloquism!


Now, is it Nomad's hand up Will's ass, or vice versa?

Would it make any difference?

_________________
Historians idolize the truth. The truth is not uplifting; it destroys. * * * Historians should tell only that part of the truth that is inspiring and uplifting. Boyd K Packer

The truth doesn't hurt unless it ought to. B C Forbes

See a sock puppet parody of Kurt Cobain here


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top Ten Reasons to be Excited About General Conference
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:55 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:33 pm
Posts: 12064
Location: Kli-flos-is-es
sock puppet wrote:
Would it make any difference?


Either way, it's time for a talk with the bishop.

_________________
Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top Ten Reasons to be Excited About General Conference
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:11 am 
CTR A
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:41 pm
Posts: 138
why me wrote:

Actually, if one takes the position that Joseph Smith was a fraud and that Emma would have to be in on it, then I can honestly say that emma was a shameful and terrible human being. If she knew that her hubby was a fraudster and yet, kept her mouth shut, thereby allowing her children undo suffering, well...she was also a child abuser.

Now of course, if Joseph Smith was a fraudster and he duped his wife, I can honestly say that she was a little stupid. Her reputation only survives if her husband is what he claimed to be: a prophet.


If Joseph Smith was a fraud and Emma knew of it, and if as you say this makes Emma a shameful and terrible human being, then if Joseph Smith was a fraudster do you also say that he was a shameful, terrible human being too?

I've met a few women in psychologically sick relationships who defend their partner through anything. I've heard of Mormons (some on this very site) who defend Smith through anything, so it's not unreasonable to suspect that she did the same. Although it's strange that she had trouble accepting polygamy when he was alive, but after he died she suddenly had amnesia and denounced that he was engaged in polygamy at all.
She was in tremendous psychological turmoil, that is clear, but it doesn't mean she's stupid. It means that she joins the ranks of people in sick relationships who develop sick minds and as a result their choices and actions reflect that sickness.
If Joseph Smith was a fraudster, what kind of mind did he have?
If he was, did he know he was a fraudster? If so, is he guilty of allowing their children undo suffering, and by using the standards you level toward Emma would that also make Joseph Smith a child abuser?

_________________
http://www.exmormonscholarstestify.org/index.html
http://www.iamanexmormon.com/
.......
http://www.mormonthink.com/lying.htm


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 217 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Jaybear, tld, Yahoo [Bot] and 25 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Revival Theme By Brandon Designs By B.Design-Studio © 2007-2008 Brandon
Revival Theme Based off SubLite By Echo © 2007-2008 Echo
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group